Lost Sanchin Stance?

[MikeK]

Aside from a few attempts to justify these stance in Kata, I predicted and predict that Shotokan will abandon these imaginative but physically dangerous stances and go back to its Shorin roots.

Some already have, others never will.

[Glenn]

How are those "slow" portions of Hangetsu performed? Dynamic tension or something of that nature?

[MikeK]

I've seen the first part of this kata done slow and relaxed with a snapping motion at the end and an emphasis on the breathing, and I've heard others doing it with maybe some DT.

[Van Canna]

Good discussion. But it makes me chuckle at times because you must look at what you do with your foot/heel in ‘Sanchin’ during sparring matches, FAST defense or other adrenaline pumping scenarios and a street fight.

Never really happens even as much as we think ‘it is happening on auto pilot’ _ take my word for it.

Bill is correct about internalizing a ‘coiling’ factor in your body, something that comes in many ways.

As to front kicks, I recall one kata champion at Manny Neves’ tournament_ a Shotokan stylist_ who walked up to the judges and declared ‘incisively’_ "I will do a hard kata"

This as opposed to others who would come up and extol the virtues of ‘soft/hard soft etc.

He won the championship over all Uechi and other styles’ competitors by doing a fluid Shotokan form with front kicks that made the building shake.

I was one of the judges and was thinking I would not want to be ‘blocking’ one of those with my arms or legs.

[thumper_wabbit_dammit]

the "severe" sanchin stance:

I have noticed that Okinawan Goju Sanchin emphasizes a little more of an outward angle with their rear foot, but no where near what Nishiyama shows in his '59 book.

My take on that and a few other poses in Nishiyama's book is simply that the authors felt that the Okinawan sanchin stance was not "balanced" and created their "hourglass" stance as their contribution to what they considered to be an "improved" Shotokan style.

Aside from a few attempts to justify these stance in Kata, I predicted and predict that Shotokan will abandon these imaginative but physically dangerous stances and go back to its Shorin roots.

Shotokan seems to have no single standard. If you look at Nishiyama's kiba dachi, you'll see how pigeon toed it is; if I remember correctly, his hangetsu stance is his kiba dachi stance rotated a bit on a lazy susan. I think he does the same with his sanchin stance from the pigeon toed natural stance.

Here is a bit by the late James Melton. http://www3.baylor.edu/BUKarate/article ... Dachi.html

[Mike Sigman]

Looking at Sanchin in terms of all Chinese martial arts (which it develops from), I see Sanchin and its purposes as being simply one of the variations and/or approaches to physical development of ki and kokyu.

To get an understanding of the idea that Sanchin might just be a variation on a theme, I have to go through a couple of steps to make the *general* argument (there are a lot of more sophisticated ideas involved and I'm just making a comment about the bigger picture in order to keep the focus on the general stance):

If you bypass all the extended discussions about "ki" (because it's sort of a generic term which encompasses a lot of different matters under one umbrella) and just go to the core issue of "ki" in relation to the body, Sanchin and its breathing methods comply with so many other trainings in Chinese martial arts that this seems to be an obvious thesis.

"Ki" in the focused sense, has to do with breath, pressure and fascia-related tensions within the body, and the augmentation of strength by utilizing this approach. Different Chinese (and Japanese) martial arts have various approaches to these tensions and trainings. To get a feel for this focused aspect of "ki", try the following. Stand up with arms horizontally out to the sides, palms down. Now raise the palms/fingers up using the wrist to about 45-50 degrees. Inhale while pulling the stomach in and notice for a slight pulling sensation in the fingertips, palms, forearms, etc. The better developed someone's "ki" is, the more they can feel this pulling sensation all over the body. At first, many people can only feel it in the finger tips, so not to worry. The more this is developed throughout the body, the stronger people become. The saying is that "the ki by itself is not very strong, but ki combined with muscle produces great strength".

So by inhaling and pulling the stomach in (this is a starter technique that you don't need after a while) you can induce pressure within the body and a stretch/tension along the surface (under the skin but over the muscles) of the body. Now if you want to really augment this slight stretch in order to increase the amount of training, you can induce other tensions so that the "stretch" reaches the most area of the body, but particularly the more powerful areas. So try the same thing:

Inhale while pulling in the stomach with the arms and fingers stretched out. Notice that there is a marked "pressurizing" effect within the body (this can have some negative repercussions, so be careful). Pretend that the body is a human-shaped "balloon" and you have pressurized the balloon with your inhale and stomach pull-in. Keep the pressure and squeeze in the elbows and knees (as in Sanchin) and notice the tensions develop in the balloon-skin and inside. Practice moving Sanchin style, inhaling for pressure to the "balloon skin" and breathing out Sanchin-wise.

That's a pretty quick thumbnail, but essentially the pressure and tension methods to develop this myofascial relationship are used throughout the spectrum of Chinese martial arts, but some methods are "hard" and some are "soft"... the core principles remain the same, though.

My point is that there are other ways to look at Sanchin than foot angles, hip stresses, etc., and as a suggestion, perhaps Sanchin is more of a "body training method" that is similar to the body training methods that are found throughout Chinese martial arts.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

[Bill Glasheen]

My point is that there are other ways to look at Sanchin than foot angles, hip stresses, etc., and as a suggestion, perhaps Sanchin is more of a "body training method" that is similar to the body training methods that are found throughout Chinese martial arts.

Well... I have to agree with you 100%.

However in the early part of your post, I believe you're speaking ... er ... Chinese. You're talking to a biomedical engineer who doesn't believe in ki, chi, or any of that stuff per se. But I do fully appreciate the innumerable metaphors. And good human movement is good human movement, no matter what you want to call it.

I'm more of the school of Tim Cartmel who can effectively practice these soft arts without a need to invoke the "C" word. (FWIW, Tim was nice enough to send me a few of his books. Great stuff! )

As an aside... Aren't you the Chen style tai chi practitioner from Colorado? Or am I mixing my Sigmans?

- Bill

[Mike Sigman]

However in the early part of your post, I believe you're speaking ... er ... Chinese. You're talking to a biomedical engineer who doesn't believe in ki, chi, or any of that stuff per se. But I do fully appreciate the metaphor. And good human movement is good human movement, no matter what you want to call it.

Well, the energy from blood sugar, the electrons and glowing air particles in lightning, and many more things are called "qi" or "ki".... you're not saying that you don't believe in those things, are you? No, you can't be. So what you're really saying is that there is some definition of "ki" or "qi" that you don't believe in and I absolutely agree that there are some current definitions of "ki" that are simply ludicrous. But ki/qi has pretty known manifestations and is exhibited (sometimes fraudulently or even with a too-heavy reliance on simple physics or even sometimes "suggestion") at tournaments, demo's, etc., with always the same criteria:

(1.) General imperviousness to blows (this can be simple conditioning in the coarser cases or it can be more sophisticated than this).

(2.) Resistance to cuts or punctures to the skin (this is where all the old 'bed of nails', hooks through the skin, laying on a sharpened spear point, walking on glass, etc., got their start... again some are real, some are mimicries).

(3.) Increased health (I realize that's arguable and I would tend to argue also that pretty much any increase in physical conditioning results in "increased health").

(4.) The ability to demonstrate focused force (sometimes amazingly narrow force) and great power. This is referred to as "nei jin" or "kokyu" force.

(5.) The ability to generate measureable magnetic force increases (attributed to the fascia). This has become a trendy thing to study in some scientific circles of (IMO) questionable rigour, but I'd suggest James L. Oschman's book on "Energy Medicine" (very nicely sourced for additional references) or read "Encounters with Qi" by Eisenburg (I think) for more mention of these "feelings", as he put it (he was sceptical). This is the woo-woo area that you're referring to that you don't believe in; my opinion is that there is something marginal there, but nothing important and certainly not strong enough to manipulate other people with. My point is that all the above areas are "qi/ki" in the martial sense. So we're not talking about the same thing.

I'm more of the school of Tim Cartmel who can effectively practice these soft arts without a need to invoke the "C" word. (FWIW, Tim was nice enough to send me a few of his books. Great stuff! )

I'm not sure what "soft" has to do with this. There is "hard qigong" and there is "soft qigong"... but they have the same principles at core. And I'm not aware of Cartmell being known to exhibit any of the standard manifestations I mentioned above. There are a number of people in the US that can demonstrate various aspects of these things to various degrees, though. Usually people can demonstrate some of the kokyu stuff and they call it "ki".

As an aside... Aren't you the Chen style tai chi practitioner from Colorado? Or am I mixing my Sigmans?

I've done some of it, just as I've done Xingyi, Aikido, karate, Bagua, etc. However, I have never, despite something you posted without support, been a "self-purported expert" nor have I ever claimed to be an expert in anything. I'm still learning, every year.

Last year I met a couple of Uechi practitioners in Germany who asked me to post something about Sanchin to this forum and I forgot about it until just recently when I happened to do a search on a number of forums to see what the discussions about "kokyu" were, in the archives. So I posted my comments about Sanchin conforming to standard martial qigong practices, for whatever it's worth. It's pretty easy to cross-check what I said within the martial arts. Try someone like Liang Shou Yu or a number of other actual experts (not Yang Jwing Ming). I just thought it might be a worthwhile pointer for some people to explore the idea that there is a common mode of training that stretches across almost all the Asian martial arts and some people do it "hard" and some people do it "soft". But the goals are generally the same. In other words, to take a position, I have yet to see recordedly better health or strength in "hard" martial arts or in "soft" martial arts, yet they all do the same "ki" training, despite doing it with different approaches. Knowing that what appears to be divergent trainings are actually, for the most parts, just different approaches to the same physical skills might be of interest to some people.

Incidentally, I once watched a Chinese teacher of mine place a chopstick point against his windpipe and the other end against a brick wall in front of his face (he borrowed the chopstick from me in answer to a question asked by another teacher at the table). He suddenly shoved forward into the wall and the chopstick splintered into a fibrous mess at the middle. It looked impossible. When someone asked him how he did it, he said "some people say 'qi', but really it is only that the human body can be conditioned more than most people understand". That's the kind of "qi" I'm talking about and certainly possible that there are conditioning possibilities that weren't covered in western colleges, isn't it?

FWIW

Mike

[thumper_wabbit_dammit]

Yeah, sanchin is a training exercise where certain variables modify the it's effects. Foot angle is one of the variables.

[Bill Glasheen]

First, Mike, you didn't answer a question of mine. Are you the student of Chen style taiji who posted on this forum a while back? The subject that precipitated various threads was whether or not certain individuals were qualified to be doing push hands in their dojos.

Just a simple question...

Thanks.

- Bill

[Mike Sigman]

Bill, look at what I've posted. A supportable discussion on Sanchin relating it to the physical training devices used across the spectrum in martial arts. A response to that one about not believing in qi. Then a clarification to you that "qi" is an umbrella term and that it encompasses many physical phenomena... and we're discussing physical phenomena. That's what I had promised someone I would contribute and it doesn't look like the topic is going to be discussed, but will be diverted to other things. I volunteered my small amount of time to express an idea and I've fulfilled what I said I would do.

As a suggestion, you might get someone like Ushiro Sensei of Goju to give a workshop on kokyu (no metaphysics involved, but I hear he won't really tell people clearly how to do them). Or you might take a look at some writings by a Mr. Ryan Parker who posted some thumbnail discussions about Kiko (qigong) within the Sanchin he learned in Goju. Here's a URL although there are probably more:
http://i2i.freeuk.com/swmarshall66/sanchin_kiko.html

Regards,

Mike Sigman

[Bill Glasheen]

Please answer my question, Mike.

- Bill

[thumper_wabbit_dammit]

I was recently watching a Goju video and a 9th Dan Okinawan in Goju was demonstrating the Sanchin stance.
In his stance the rear foot heel was kicked out at an angle.
This was how I learned the stance originally in 78.
After a couple of searches I found the same true in Shorin and Isshin Sanchin Kata. It was a small search on google.
Reading an unofficial translation of Kanei Uechi's book I found another reference to this foot being kicked out.
I can see how the dynamics of the stance and it's resistance to different angles of attack would change with this.
Wondering if others have wondered the same?
F.

I imagine you learned it the same way I did ... starting with feet together turn out the toes on the heels as far as you could, turn out the heels on the balls of your feet you could, then make a circular step forward ... it was the mid 60's for me ... I'd practice on the kitchen tiles to align the heel and toes ... I learned a goju off-shoot ... what style did you learn? I wonder how weird that looked to my parents back then?