9th kata

jkolb · Post by **jkolb** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:35 pm

I thought that form had a bit of Goju in it.

I really like how they use Uechi principles though. So what if some of the moves aren't explicitly in the other forms? It doesn't matter, I think the principles were consistent and the techniques very Uechi.

Jeremy

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:49 pm

Wow, you snuck that thing in there when I was posting, Dana. I missed it.

My initial reaction is like that of Marcus.

* Some of it is surprisingly out of context of the style, and not really in a way that excites me. The double front kicks off the rear legs and the double stepping lunge thrusts are examples. Those are the kinds of techniques I'd expect in an "instructional" Okinawan or Japanese karate form - not a suparinpei-type form, or one of Southern Chinese origin. In a way, it expresses elements I don't particularly care for in the prearranged kumite attacks.

* In general, the footwork is lacking. It feels like they've stepped back from Sanseiryu footwork (quite interesting) to Kanshiwa footwork (unimaginative, but not without utility).

However...

It's Uechi-like enough that I believe I could probably learn the form straight from this video. I might miss some of the hand positioning where it's too blurry to see, but I could probably make up what I believe it is and not be far off. So that should tell you something.

I believe, in fact, I'll give it a try.

It's also worth mentioning that I do like some of the more complex hand patterns. They flow well.

And it's also worth mentioning that I believe I'd do the form different from the way Machita Sensei did it. I don't like disparaging anyone's rendition of a form because it's a highly personal thing. However in looking at this, I believe there is a flow to it that Machita Sensei isn't showing. She's extremely "clean" in her movement, but there' s no attempt to display body elasticity. (mochi) And maybe if I did it a bit... I think I might find and be able to express a few elements within this material that aren't being shown here.

We shall see.

Overall, an interesting effort, and worth a look-see.

- Bill

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:51 pm

nosib wrote: Hojo Undo in kata form

Dana Sheets wrote: Any kata is hojo undo in kata form isn't it? That's bascially the definition of kata.

It's the other way around, hojo undo were created by taking certain moves from the kata and focusing on them in repetition. You could make hojo out of any technique found in the kata. But regardless of which came first the effect is the same, with any style you should see a lot of similarity between the kata and the hojo undo and I do not see that as a negative. The hojo undo help you work on individual techniques while kata help you work on the flow of techniques and the dynamics and transitions between techniques.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:32 am

I thought kata were a collection of defensive themes , are hojo undo defensive themes ?

So I would strongly urge folks to look at this kata with more curiosity than criticism at this point. Wait until you've seen other people do it. Wait until you've had a chance to have one of the creators explain the principles they intended to convey in the form. With that information you can make a judgement based on whether or not the form achieved the goals they intended for it rather than the goals we suppose.

I think its fine , it just doesnt excite me . I stand by my initial comments none of which were intended to disparage .

It does not look complicated to me , I personally see sanseiryu as more complicated , but thats solely because there are Uechi speciific techniques I have not dealt with .

nosib · Post by **nosib** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:06 am

Thank you Dana for posting the link to that kata. I first was made aware of it about two years ago....sheltered life here in Miichigan for this ole boy I guess.
"any kata is hojo undo in kata form isn't it"? NO!
Look,the glass is always half full...ya da ya da ya da...and can be applied to most of ones endevours...BUT! when you look,think and see the unique manner in which Uechi progresses from Sanchin up AND through the bridging and main forms....this new incarnation flies in the face of our inspired Uechi convention.
Why? Because it's manifistation smacks of some subtle PC
generifaction of Uechi as just another Okinawan martial art.
And no,it is not!
I watched the video 2 more times!!! can't view it again...totally torques me off. I have to laugh...what the hell were they thinking? OH! but then again that just might be their genius!!!!!!

I pose it to you thus....think of "the emperor's clothing" and view it again.

OH! but maybe this just might be Takimiagi's revenge! Brilliant!!!!!!!!

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:12 am

how many criticisims have I heard about generic karate and shotokan over the years .

Now it`s embraced .

It`s something else , It maybe a usefull bridging kata ....

nosib · Post by **nosib** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:22 am

Nothing wrong with "generic karate" ....all blocks,punches,kicks,throws and whatever else works is just
great! Never ment any perjoritive conotation to any reference there of or ever will. It be all good. It just not be Uechi!

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:09 am

I kind of take the term generic as a compliment

I translate it as succesfull

I agree these extras have a different flavour .

But these days I just do karate . no style baggage attached

Okinawan Chun Fa rocks

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:09 pm

Nosib,

I'd urge you to read some of Patrick McCarhty's work if you haven't.

http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/Secrets.htm

"Kata" is the same character as "hsing" which means "model". The terms is used for an entire form (what we usually call "kata" AND for the individual postures/movements.

A form, then, is a series of individuals postures strung together into a pattern. Usually that pattern was made to actually closely what became known as the usual pattern. Start to the front, then turn to the right, then turn 180 degrees, then turn to the rear, etc.

drop on by my forum here:
http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.p ... 486#140486

And see just how easy it is to pull apart the little postures and stick them back together again.

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:30 pm

But do you know this for sure

.....I mean as good as Patrick Mccarthy is all this stuff is culturally second hand/pre-owned and it has gone thru it's own cultural censorship i.e. Okinawan art derived from Chinese art

I have done a couple of Chinese arts and to my mind they are far deeper than anything done by the Japaneses or the Okinawans...................
What happens is people get totally confused..or worse think that they know

As Westerners we are in a position to jump between groups we can get an Okinawan art ( i.e. Uechi) but then look at a chinese art ( i.e. Hakka Mantis) and see what we want.....all to often, what we have is loyalty to outmoded ways of thinking or to personalities

....................why can't we go beyond this

.....if you think that it is crap and has no place.....why not delete it

......go for the "good stuff"

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:06 pm

But do you know this for sure .....I mean as good as Patrick Mccarthy is all this stuff is culturally second hand/pre-owned and it has gone thru it's own cultural censorship i.e. Okinawan art derived from Chinese art

It`s fairly basic logic ... kata where created from things learnt , the only other explanation is divine inspiration .

and while I`m a beleiver in the depth of chinese arts , your making the same assumption you accuse others of .

Ive seen lots of crap gung fu too

as for discarding the rubbish , youd think that`d be obvious but it`s not .

Blind tradition seems very new

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:38 am

It's easy to poke fun at this stuff. It's a lot harder to have an open mind and give it a try.

If all you ever learned was Sanchin and Seisan, what would you think if you saw Sanseiryu?

What? What is all this deep stance schit? What's all the soft, flowing, smooth junk? Where's the bloody beef, man? Too much complex motor coordination. It'll never fly on the street!

It took me several years of doing the Fuzhou Suparinpei I now do and teach before it really started to speak to me. In fact... I just plain couldn't do parts of it very well at all. And some of it seemed downright silly and/or excessive. And now I'm a 51-year-old fart, and it gets easier and easier to do the "gymnastic" parts of the form. Why? Because the form demanded I do it a certain way, or hack through it like a teenager with more balls than brains.

And the better I got at it, the better my Seisan and Sanseiryu got!

And how come I'm getting better in the batting cage these days? As an old fart! Both left and right handed now (I couldn't do that when I was young and fast

) BTW, just came back from there today. It was an 80-degree gem of a day!

And speaking of American baseball... Should we expect the Okinawans to behave like Chinese? Should I pretend I never did any of the great American pasttimes whenever I put a gi on? (Baseball has to be one of the most useful physical activities I could have done before getting into martial arts. And my karate shows it these days.

)

Yea, parts of this new form really rub me the wrong way. Yes, I hear the criticisms. But I'm going to stop short of rejecting it until I actually try it.

This year I picked up Tsukenshitahaku no sai again. I always hated that form. My first kobudo instructor once told me "The sai is not your weapon!" But I'd do it, drop it, do it, drop it...

Would you believe that the more I see "Uechi mechanics" in it, the easier it is to do? And would you believe that the more I find ways to use my body to move my heavy stainless steel sai, the better my empty-hand Uechi gets?

IMO, the best way to speak authoritatively about something like this is by actually doing it. Watching and commenting on it is like trying to describe what it's like to birth a baby without having done it yourself. Give it time. Let some people with a breadth of martial knowledge try it and see what they think. It's not like this is a short form, after all. There are a couple of interesting and new sequences in there.

- Bill

Rick Wilson · Post by **Rick Wilson** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 5:04 am

Thank you for the link Dana.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 5:05 am

whos poking fun ?

just discussing the obvious .

No interest in being an authority , or deluding myself into thinking something is what it isnt .

It`s a fine bridge kata . And could very well enhance peoples training .

I cant see how anyone would find that more difficult than Sanseiryu , but thats JMHO

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:54 pm

Marus wrote:
I cant see how anyone would find that more difficult than Sanseiryu , but thats JMHO

Actually I agree. It's taken me a while to get comfortable with Sanseiryu, and I don't (yet) see the same big jump going into this form. But if someone didn't have a broader martial background as you do, Marcus, would they feel the same?

Also, there's a hidden method to the madness of making a form three times longer. This I discovered after the first 3 or 4 times I had to do long (three minute) forms in front of a group where the adrenaline was cranking. If you turn it into a 100 meter dash the way some folks do forms, you're not going to have any power at the end (assuming you're still standing). If you do every move the exact same way - as if it was supposed to be a power move where you generate the energy de novo - you aren't going to have any power at the end.

So approaching a form this length requires an entirely different strategy. And the strategy you use isn't a lot different than what you might use to survive a multiple opponent fight.

So again... It's something to investigate first hand.

It's also worth mentioning (for the record) that in the classical Okinawan Karate tournaments, Uechi forms don't do well. In the eyes of the judges, the performances may be great but the material lacks length and complexity. And frankly a good deal of the Uechi material is way too subtle when performed on a stage and viewed from a distance (as compared to other styles where movements are long, big, and done from deep stances).

So judges often view Uechi forms like they view someone doing a dive extremely well in the Olympics, but the difficulty factor is low. You're doomed to a lower maximum score before you even bow. Is that a reason to choreograph a new form? It happened to be the motivation for Nestor choreographing his own long Uechi form. And he did extremely well with it in mixed-style tournaments where they don't require you to do one of the "classical" forms from a menu. On Okinawa in classical torunaments they get a bit rigid about this stuff. Do one off the menu, or forgetaboutit. So... You want length and complexity walking into the tournament? For a Uechi stylist, you're going to have to do some footwork today so that down the road, you have an "accepted" form you can pull off the menu that speaks to your brand of training but still speaks to judges who have no idea what the heck you are doing.

Yea, the politics really ****** on that one. It's not classical unless it came from "the right people." Hmm...

But that's the way it is - today. At least there are some people in the greater Uechi community thinking about and working on stuff like this.

- Bill