Descendents of Shushiwa

[Stryke]

I can get specific, Mike. That's all I ask of others in such a discussion. We're here to learn.

well get specific and outlay the structure and sequence of the kata .

Do I have to beg , here to learn ???

Actually I'm in the attack, attack, attack mode, no?

the best form of defense is attack right Bill ?

I find some very valid questions , no doubt you were being picky and defensive in some of your comments .

no need to be defensive , let the material stand on it`s own merits .

[gmattson]

Over the years our New England Uechi community hosted many Southern China martial art experts. . . some who claimed to be related in some manner or other to Shushiwa. Others were selected to attend our annual camp (SummerFest) by the Fuzhou Wushu Association, because of their (claimed) link to the fighting system taught by Shushiwa.

All spent much time teaching drills, applications and forms to hundreds of our students.

To my knowledge, none of this knowledge or technique has remained as part of any Uechi dojo curriculum at any dojo.

Now... along comes a "Brit", just returned from Fuzhou with a fascinating story pertaining to his trip and a couple of forms he learned. When he demonstrated the forms, I saw what I felt was the most interesting of all the Chinese forms I've seen so far. (And over the years I've seen hundreds and I've always watched them with my Uechi "credibility meter" running, searching for something related to our eight kata.

Bill has explained how he got involved with the form quite a few times. For the record, I asked him to learn other Chinese forms as well over the years.

Also for the record, I believe that the Uechi world will determine whether the Superempi form Bill has learned, taught at camp and recorded on film, suffers the same fate as the other forms given to us by the Chinese martial art community, or survives and based on what I call "sticking power', remain an interesting supplementary form or even the fourth elusive and mysterious Uechi kata.

(Human nature, being what it is, will affect any honest and objective evaluation of Glasheen sensei's work, based on Simon Lailey's discovery. Many people dislike Bill and if he were the reincarnation of Kanbun, these people would find ways to try and discredit him.)

As someone who will probably never completely learn the form, I would like to repeat what I said to Bill when he asked me if all the work he was doing with this form would be worthwhile and if I thought the form would actually be accepted by the Uechi community as being relevant:

"Bill, there is only one way to determine this. Offer to teach it at camp, make the DVD available and see if it has 'sticking power'! The other forms didn't last past the camps in which they were taught. I predict that this one will do what the others failed to do. . . stick! "

Anyone who spends any time working with this form with an open mind will find interesting and credible information that will help gain a deeper insight into our system. . . whether or not the form is "the" Superempi Kanbun might have studied or not.

I find it incredibly shortsighted to condemn the form based on whether or not it was the exact same form Kanbun was exposed to. I find it just as shortsighted as the argument that the forms we are studying today are the exact same forms that Kanbun studied in China or taught to Ryuryu Tomoyose in Wakiyama.

[John Giacoletti]

Research over the last 25 years has brought to light the Committe appointed by Uechi Kani Sensei to formulate the Uechi bridge kata and other supplementary exercises which were added to the basic three kata.

Less well known in the Committe which must have met in the early 1960s to regularize and set a standard format of those basic three kata.

A DVD exists in a tightly restricted circulation with restrictions on its distribution. It shows in part at least some of the work of the Committe.

Different Uechi seniors reviewed extant versions of the three main kata and decided on what the Uechi - Ryu format would be of the inherited Pangainoon style.

Movements and techniques that were ostensibly Chinese and which would not meet the Japanese criteria of what Karate consisted of were purged, modified, surgically improved, extracted, recast, etc. into the forms we now accept as standard and some of the earlier versions survive as "Old Style."

Have other versions of our kata survived in the international community in schools whose linage goes back to Uechi Kanbun's senior students?

Those of you who want to see film clips of the three main kata performed by Fuzhou Superinpi practitioners would probably find them nearly unrecognizable.

As GEM states above:

I find it just as shortsighted as the argument that the forms we are studying today are the exact same forms that Kanbun studied in China or taught to Ryuryu Tomoyose in Wakiyama.

[gmattson]

However, who decided what Tomoyose sensei taught to me prior to that "meeting"?

I attended (and was partly responsible) for the first formal meeting in Naha of all the senior Uechi teachers of the era. (I believe the meeting was held in 1957 or early in 1958) The purpose was to create a formal organization (The Uechi-ryu Karate Association) and to establish regular meetings where the training material could be discussed and standardized.

At the meeting, each of the representatives demonstrated kata as they remembered it being taught by their teacher (or Kanbun) and the group made comments. Not much was accomplished though, because every group very strongly believed that what they were doing was correct and what others were doing was modified and not something to be adopted by the group. Following the meeting, at least one group resigned in protest.

I know that one of the major changes that occurred following my return to the USA, was the circle block. Kanei Uechi wanted the block to be performed parallel to the body instead of the "flatter" version Tomoyose taught to me. I adopted Kanei's way upon my first return visit to Okinawa. There were other changes as well, but mostly in less obvious ways of performing techniques.

If I were in more of a discovering mode, I would revisit the Wakiyama tapes and view with an open mind the workout that is demonstrated. Aside from the minimal Japanese influence, the workout (according to Ryuryu Tomoyose) was being done as Kanbun taught. (No group kata... all individual performance) The first thing I noticed was how "Chinese" the forms looked. However, at the time I was more upset over the differences between what I was doing compared to what Ryuryu was teaching.

And of course, Ryuryu was adamant that what he was teaching was Kanbun's way and how he never varied either the way he did the kata or the way he taught from the way Kanbun did it.

Does it really matter???

[Glenn]

I've always found the Wakiyama tape fascinating, in terms of its contrast to the Uechi I've learned (now I need to look at it again to see how they do their circle blocks after George's comment above).

I've also noticed differences in Toyama's Sanseiryu versus other performers that I have seen, and he trained under Kanbun Uechi for at least part of his training. What influences his Sanseiryu and does it lean more toward Chinese than Japanese? And how does it compare to what Ryuryu Tomoyose practised and taught?

[gmattson]

Consider the size of the dojo some of the "old timers" trained and taught in. I know that Tomoyose's living room was too small to perform any kata without some "adaptation". At what point would this "adapting to environment" become part of the kata?

Just a thought that I had while watching a squirrel playing a game with my "Rube Goldberg" adaptation to the bird feeder, built to thwart the squirrel's getting to the bird seed! More on this later... BTW, the squirrel won!

[diegoz_ar]

A DVD exists in a tightly restricted circulation with restrictions on its distribution. It shows in part at least some of the work of the Committe.

who filmed this Comitte ?

[maxwell ainley]

Glenn , I don't think RyuRyu Tomoyose practiced sanseirui ,I stand to be corrected on this though ,just a thought .

[Glenn]

Consider the size of the dojo some of the "old timers" trained and taught in. I know that Tomoyose's living room was too small to perform any kata without some "adaptation". At what point would this "adapting to environment" become part of the kata?

Bo training in those dojo had to be interesting.

[John Giacoletti]

every group very strongly believed that what they were doing was correct and what others were doing was modified and not something to be adopted by the group. Following the meeting, at least one group resigned in protest

I guess it really does matter.

Seems to me leadership was not able to integrate the perceived local needs with the overall objectives.

Individual pride.
Bragging Rights.
Opportunity for additional proficiency.
Depth and Width of expertise.
Solidified organizational front:
Example: Do you want to march with the Marines or a street gang?
Cultural allegience

[Willy]

Interesting thread at times it heats up and then things calm down again. Makes me leary to get involved. It appears their is a great deal of passion around what is and what isn't Uechi. Is this kata a Uechi kata or not ? And opinions from both sides of the fence.

Sorry if my comments are lagging behind the discusion I've been working more than I wish these days and have trouble chiming in on a timely basis.

I suspect George and Bill are correct who gives a flick as long as the practioner gets something from the the training it was well spent time!

What baffles me is why does this material remains for purchase only? One must attend camp or buy the video, if one wants to explore this kata as I understand it. Yet the other eight kata Uechi kata are available to any IUKF member on the video page.

So what makes this one so different that members can not access it without shelling out some additional coin? I think someone else asked this question but maybe not worded this way.

I don't understand why their are so many sanchins and sanseiryu clips for free and this possibly uechi or related kata is only for sale. Did Simon charge for it when he presented it,are we still trying to break even?


No sacasim or critism intended folks, just trying to understand whats going on.

I'm about ten years away from even thinking about exploring another kata at and I all ready own the video's and shelved them. I just don't understand, because I got the rest of my kata for free.

[gmattson]

Well Willy, I guess because none of the 200+ people who have studied and maybe 50 who have learned the whole thing, haven't had the time or inclination to video tape the kata for those who aren't able or willing to shell out a few bucks for Bill's DVD. (which he has graciously donated to Eastern Arts upkeep)

For the record, I think we sold around 5 of these DVD in 2006, not counting those taken at the SummerFest and packaged in Scott's 5 pack.

[RACastanet]

willing to shell out a few bucks for Bill's DVD. (which he has graciously donated to Eastern Arts upkeep)

Bill worked on the kata and DVD for years, not days weeks or months. He asked me for some help years ago and I knew what the time commitment would be to do it to his standard and graciously declined. At that time I was travelling a lot and would have run into trouble at home if I was spending more hours in the gym.

If you want a well detailed vidoe to work with this is worth the $$$.

In our club, if we did not have a few students volunteer time and materials to make dvds, notes, handouts, test forms etc I'd just give teaching up. For some reason everybody expects to get the training aids for free. We do not charge members anything except a one time mat fee (which the health club gets) and an occasional test fee to pay for belts, patches and the like.

Last month we had a 3 hour self defense class for the health club membership. The turnout was huge. I had Kinkos make up 10 really nice binders of all of the notes - about 100 pages - for interested members. Plenty of interest until I asked for $10 - the cost! No one wanted to pay for the decades of experience Bill and I and others compiled. I even let people try out a few different defense sprays on a target outside. We pressed off over $30 worth of OC and MACE. Yet no one felt they should spend a dime. That is BS! No more free SD classes for the general gym members.

This info, be it Bill's kata or my research into the realities of self defense, has value. I have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours training at my own expense to get certified by the NRA and licensed by the Virginia Dept of Criminal Justice Services. Also being tear gassed and pepper sprayed by the Marines TWICE to secure a piece of paper that validates I know a bit about chemical sprays.

I am not in Uechi to make money, but I sure as heck need to at least cover my costs.

Put some $$ up or move on guys.

Rich

[CANDANeh]

Anyone who spends any time working with this form with an open mind will find interesting and credible information that will help gain a deeper insight into our system. . . whether or not the form is "the" Superempi Kanbun might have studied or not.

It has 'sticking power" in Bridgewater NS for the record, currently going through "second generation" evolution (I`m learning it). Long and difficult to learn (give me a year) but I already see how it can only enhance my training with the other excepted big 3.
It has Uechi like movements, flows well, Uechi principles apply (it`s good Uechi)
Sanchin is the stem...Seisan the flower bud, Sanseiryu the flower opens...Supriempei????....smell the flower
Yes...you can smell the flower without this "new kata" but it is a heck of a fun way to do it.
Sent Bill a PM (not sure if it will ever leave my outbox...doesn`t seem to work right) but the bottom line is it made it to Canada and Victor didn`t need to pay duty at the border. A seed is sown

[Glenn]

Glenn , I don't think RyuRyu Tomoyose practiced sanseirui ,I stand to be corrected on this though ,just a thought .

This surprises me, I assumed he practice all of the "big 3"? I'm referring to Sanseiryu, not Suparenpei.