Descendents of Shushiwa

[Glenn]

Keep in mind that free internet clips are a very recent phenomena. It wasn't that long ago that you would have had to pay something to learn any technique or kata. We are getting spoiled with the easy quick access the internet brings.

But in my opinion free clips on the internet are devaluing multimedia as a teaching tool. Anyone can post a clip, whether they really know the kata that well or not. But what does that serve? Meanwhile the knowledgable sensei are becoming less inclined to shell out the significant money and time it takes to make a quality product because free clips elsewhere make even breaking even difficult.

And worst of all is when the quality product is pirated into free internet clips.

My $0.02 on this topic.

[Glenn]

It has 'sticking power" in Bridgewater NS for the record, currently going through "second generation" evolution (I`m learning it). Long and difficult to learn (give me a year) but I already see how it can only enhance my training with the other excepted big 3.

It has stuck in Nebraska too. My teacher learned it from Bill at summer camp, and I learned it from my teacher and Bill's video (which I need to replace with a DVD when I can afford it). Although learned is a bit strong...I know the full pattern and the basics of it at least, and have started exploring it more deeply. It definitely complements the "big 3" well, moreso than some of the bridging kata in my opinion.

[mikemurphy]

Bill,

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Murphy

Isn't this little nudge a bit below you? You certainly know who sensei Campbell meant. There was no need to sink to this patronization.

Bills Quote:

I said exactly what I meant to say, Mike, and in the exact manner that I intended. It's all about the facts, and not about personality.

And once again I respectfully ask you not to involve yourself. I consider this matter with you closed.

****
Not that I’m one to throw up the white flag in a good debate, but if you “intended” to be condescending and insulting to my instructor (not that he needs my help) in an open forum (which you cannot close), or to be that way to anyone who differs in their opinion from yours, then it is really not that much fun going after your “historical” research.


mike

[Bill Glasheen]

You misunderstand, Mike, and I don't care to explain. Sorry you got hung up on it.

Have a great day.

Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

I got this note from Leo. I couldn't resist sharing it.

Victor Swinimer is someone who has worked with me on this form at the camps. Apparently he found something worthwhile in it, and has taken the material and run with it.

If you people think Canadian tournaments are pushovers, guess again. Some of the Canucks have done quite a bit to help some of our own (such as Perry and Khoury) sharpen their fighting and tournament skills.

- Bill

Hi Bill

Good to see discussion on our "missing kata", at least people are talking and certainly many ears out there lol.

Anyhow...Victor Swinimer performed it at the Maritime Championship (multi style event) and scored gold, second place went to a member of our Canadian National team whom was expected to clean this event...he wishes to learn the kata. Winning wasn`t the goal (although always nice fluff) demonstration was and the judges were all 20 year plus veterans Internationally certified by the WKA. Comments ranged from "powerful cascade of water" to "finally, we seen something different..."
Not a recognized kata in the WKA as far as International competition and in my lifetime will not be. Only practioner I`m aware of in Nova Scotia who has made it part of his curriculum (or that matter performs it) is Victor and regardless if it was, wasn`t , will or not be part of Uechi it lives in our dojo quite well. It is a "gift" available to be taught to the more senoir students after Sanseiryu...

Thank you for your efforts in planting this seed which is the intent of my message. Hey...it even got through Canadian customs without duty.

Regards,
Leo

[John Giacoletti]

For all of you who desire documentation relating to sumperinpi, please check this out. It more than confirms the statements of Simon Lailey and Bill Glasheen.

http://kempo.4mg.com/articles/blind.htm

It seemed that students who were among those in the transition stage, and under the influence of Itosu and the Japanese martial arts organization, tried to make prearranged versions of the free style Kata that their master's had taught.

One example of this is the Hakutsuru Kata taught by Gokenki, a Chinese martial artist who shared his Kempo with the Okinawans. It is reported that day after day, he would perform his Hakutsuru Kata, differently each time. Each of the students, who trained with Gokenki at the Kenkyu Kai, remembered a different form. It is obvious to anyone who has trained in actual ancient Okinawan Kata, that Gokenki was teaching, Mukei, formlessness. The idea is that you learn certain techniques and principles for the type of Kata you are doing and then move spontaneously with visualization.

The fact that Gokenki taught in this manner shows that originally Chinese martial arts too were taught in a free style manner.

However, since the students at the Kenkyu Kai were either students of Itosu, or influenced by him, to use the prearranged Kata in training and teaching, they did not see or understand what Gokenki was doing. Thus you can find many different versions of Gokenki's Hakutsuru Kata.

One of the students of Chojun Miyagi, tells the story of how when being taught Sanchin, Miyagi originally had his students march up and down the Dojo floor without having a set pattern to the form. Sometimes the students would turn at the end of the floor and come back down, at other times they would simply go backwards down the floor. This shows that until Miyagi talked with Itosu and was advised by him to formulate prearranged Kata for teaching his style, the great master used free style, original Okinawan training.

[Stryke]

I dont think anyone doubts that kata were alive and changing and not preservationist in early days .

there is some very interesting discussion on thsi on the

http://www.uechiryu.ca/forums for anyone interested in some more information .

[Seizan]

"Dr." Durbin's credentials. So much for a reliable source of historical fact.

BTW, we might recall seeing Rod Sacharnoski on that Discovery special about MA of Japan, which started with the video footage filmed on Okinawa...

From the Wickpedia (ref: "Dr. William Durbin" in your search engine):

Like other systems of Kempo practiced in the west, Kiyojute Ryu traces its lineage primarily to James Mitose, although several other lines contributed to the curriculum. Several of the founder's teachers who would contribute heavily to the formation of Kiyojute Ryu, learned either from Mitose himself or other notable instructors at this time.

In 1970, Durbin began his martial arts studies in Bardstown, Kentucky with instructor Richard Stone, originally learning Kodokan Judo, but he became exposed to a much wider variety of martial arts while studying with Mr. Stone, due to Mr. Stone's lack of the total knowledge he himself attained over the years and simply referred to everything as Judo. When Mr. Durbin left for college in 1971; he, Bob Sester (a Shotokan Karate student), and Bos Bosmar (also with the Kodokan) started a Self Defense Club at Campbellsville University. During these years, he studied several martial arts including; Shotokan Karate, Kodakan Judo, Goju Ryu, Shorin Ryu, Aikikai Aikido, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, and several others.

During these years, he began to develop a personal philosophy while researching oriental philosophy, regarding to martial arts, so that in 1974, while teaching self defense in Michigan, Mr. Durbin coined the phrase Ki Yang Ju Te, to reflect his teaching philosophy toward the martial arts. In 1978, he joined with Rod Sacharnoski of Juko Kai (along with Richard Stone) and studied with Bill "Superfoot" Wallace, a master of Shorin-Ryu Karate and the World Middleweight Full Contact Karate Champion. After joining Mr. Sacharnoski, William Durbin demonstrated his skill to him and was graded appropriatly and started teaching Juko Kai using his philosophy, which was approved by Rod Sacharnoski. Most of Durbin's training was received from Sacharnoski and, thus, cannot be reliably traced back before Sacharnoski (as Sacharnoski has been unable to keep his stories straight regarding his own credentials in the martial arts).

In 1979, Durbin moved from Campbellsville to Frankfort and began to work as an instructor of martial arts at Kentucky State University throughout the early 1980's. While working as a martial arts instructor at KSU, he began to study for degrees from the University of Oriental Philosophy operated by Juko Kai (at that time based in North Carolina), receiving an unaccredited MA in 1980 and PhD in 1982. In 2001, the State of Maine (where UOP was now located) discovered that the University of Oriental Philosophy was a diploma mill and had been offering degrees illegally. The UOP was ordered by the State to be shut down. Despite the illegitimate nature of his degree, Durbin continues to use the title "Dr." He states in the Ryu's faq that his degree came from Juko Kai, but does not reveal that it is unaccredited or that it was gained from a school that was found to be offering degrees illegally. He states only that, "some accept this degree and others do not".

In 1980, Durbin was awarded his Shihan status from Sacharnoski, and with his encouragement he began to develop a curriculum and codify his philosophies and teachings in preparations for opening his own school and founding his own system. In 1982 the Zen Kokusai Soke Budo/Bugei Remmei, a board operated by Juko Kai to recognize martial arts (and headed by Sacharnoski), acknowledged him as Shodai Soke (first generation headmaster) of Ki Yang Ju Te Ryu Kempo (In 1986, by request of William Durbin, the board reissued the certification under the proper Japanese spelling, Kiyojute Ryu). Apparently, the man who had just received a "doctorate" in Oriental Philosophy (with a specialization in the philosophy and history of Japanese and Okinawan arts), didn't know that he was incorrectly translating a concept which is very important to Japanese philosophy. In 1986, Kiyojute Ryu formally began with its first dojo in Frankfort. Over the next two decades, Thomas Mitose (of Kosho Shorei-ryu), Bruce Juchnik (of Sei Sosho Shorei Kai), and Nimr Hassan (of Koga Ha Kosho Shorei-ryu), would all agree that William Durbin had created a system of Kempo and that Mr. Durbin was the head of that system. Bill "Superfoot" Wallace has also personally recognized that Kiyojute Ryu is a system of kempo and he was given a rank in the system. Lastly, in 1999, Ramon Lono Ancho of Kodenkan also recognized Kiyojute Ryu. William Durbin also states in his book that he has received an endorsement from Bill Beach of Hawaiian Jiu-Jitsu.. However, the only verified sponsoring organization for the Ryu was created by Sacharnoski and William Durbin was the vice-president of that organization at one time.

Throughout the late 1980's and early 1990's, Kiyojute Ryu began to spread beyond Frankfort, with some of Durbins students going on to open dojo in Louisville, Kentucky, Lexington, Kentucky, Cleveland, Ohio, the University of Kentucky, the University of Louisville, and Urbana, Illinois. Throughout the 1990's, Durbin continued to train in various arts as he taught. By 1994 he had been granted Shihan status in Karate, Jujitsu, Aikijujutsu, Kobujutsu (all under Sacharnoski) and Ninjutsu (under Nimr Hassan). According to Durbin, he has separately been awarded Yudansha ranking in Togakure-ryu Ninjutsu under Masaaki Hatsumi of Bujinkan). The Ryu incorporates elements of each of those arts into its curriculum. It should be kept in mind, however, that William Durbin's writings are the only source offered for his claims that the Ryu is recognized by well known people in the martial arts community (an example of circular reasoning) (Nimr Hassan is the one exception to that).

In 2001, Durbin published Mastering Kempo, a general textbook of Kempo history, philosophy and technique. In 2004 he published Koga Ryu Ninjutsu, a book on the history and basic techniques of ninjutsu.

*****

FWIW - but of course one can always accept his authority in the subject of Chinese MA without question, if one wishes. Just look at all his years of documented on-site overseas studies and expertise that confirms absolutely his statements about how Chinese and Okinawan MA was taught in the old days...



Seizan

[JimHawkins]

No question that forms have changed over the years. But there is a big difference between what I am aware of in form changes and what it seems some are suggesting. Various forms have existed in a similar fashion in some CMA for a very long time, some systems have forms that are hundreds of years old. They have underwent *small* changes made over long periods of time by highly competent *masters* or *inheritors* of systems who knew the material nearly as well as the creators did and these changes were done for very specific reasons.

This is what IMO has happened in most systems I am aware of and is what was done in WCK. Indeed expression of many forms can offer the player flexibility but system's were *encoded* into forms for generations for a reason. These forms were the vessals that contained the "secrets" of the style and so great care was taken to indeed preserve the message even when changes were made--so the form must stay more or less the same if the encoding is to remain intact. Small changes over time were indeed made to help the style or system adapt but anytime you change something that is as carefully arranged as "DNA" one must be careful not to ruin or destroy the original message.

Some other systems *have* underwent sudden radical changes and this was done in recent times often for the stated purpose of "defanging"--IMO these changes are highly suspect IMO and should be viewed with great skepticism. Some of these changes happened to many Japanese systems during the time of what some here call "Japanification" and most question the rational and validity of the changes made at this time as well as some of the additions or changes made to what is termed "bunkai". IMO as it was with the school kids karate curriculums so it was with what would become the mainstream curriculum.

The kata seen in Uechi now seem to be IMO a product of Uechi Kanei, and very significantly different from what was seen in the Wakayama footage, as I have read, are the "bunkai" and other elements that were to be added later. The question IMO is if it is even the same system or style after this transition was made and IMO it probably can't be if the "DNA" was changed sufficiently. Meanwhile folks wonder why they can't find "accurate" historical matches to this material which has been radically transformed more than once in recent history.

[Glenn]

"Dr." Durbin's credentials. So much for a reliable source of historical fact.

In 1970, Durbin began his martial arts studies in Bardstown, Kentucky

Leave it to a fellow Kentuckian!

[Glenn]

I attended (and was partly responsible) for the first formal meeting in Naha of all the senior Uechi teachers of the era. (I believe the meeting was held in 1957 or early in 1958) The purpose was to create a formal organization (The Uechi-ryu Karate Association) and to establish regular meetings where the training material could be discussed and standardized.

At the meeting, each of the representatives demonstrated kata as they remembered it being taught by their teacher (or Kanbun) and the group made comments. Not much was accomplished though, because every group very strongly believed that what they were doing was correct and what others were doing was modified and not something to be adopted by the group. Following the meeting, at least one group resigned in protest.

Curiousity: Have any schools/lineages from this time period that did not conform to Kanei's standardization survived to today? For example what happened to the group that "resigned in protest"? And I'm not talking about the more recent 'breakaway' organizations like Pangainoon/Konan/Kobu Ryu that broke away from Uechi Ryu in 1978 and the Okikukai/Shohei Ryu that broke away around 1990, I'm talking about older non-mainstream lineages.

[John Giacoletti]

Seizan,

You are off the point. The point is not the authorship or credentials of the article writer.

The point is the illustrative examples of two distinguished karate figures --- Gokenkai and Chojun Miyagi.

One example of this is the Hakutsuru Kata taught by Gokenki, a Chinese martial artist who shared his Kempo with the Okinawans. It is reported that day after day, he would perform his Hakutsuru Kata, differently each time. Each of the students, who trained with Gokenki at the Kenkyu Kai, remembered a different form. It is obvious to anyone who has trained in actual ancient Okinawan Kata, that Gokenki was teaching, Mukei, formlessness. The idea is that you learn certain techniques and principles for the type of Kata you are doing and then move spontaneously with visualization.

The fact that Gokenki taught in this manner shows that originally Chinese martial arts too were taught in a free style manner.

However, since the students at the Kenkyu Kai were either students of Itosu, or influenced by him, to use the prearranged Kata in training and teaching, they did not see or understand what Gokenki was doing. Thus you can find many different versions of Gokenki's Hakutsuru Kata.

One of the students of Chojun Miyagi, tells the story of how when being taught Sanchin, Miyagi originally had his students march up and down the Dojo floor without having a set pattern to the form. Sometimes the students would turn at the end of the floor and come back down, at other times they would simply go backwards down the floor. This shows that until Miyagi talked with Itosu and was advised by him to formulate prearranged Kata for teaching his style, the great master used free style, original Okinawan training.

Making demeaning assertions about the author is one thing.
Ignoring the examples presented is another. Please refute the examples relating to Gokenkai and Chojun Miyagi.

Please address the examples. That's the intellectually honest thing to do. I believe they are accurate illustrations of the teaching methods of two karate legends. I posted this research material in good faith and for you to misdirect the reader's attention off the subject with malice and sarcasim is unwarranted and unprofessional:

Just look at all his years of documented on-site overseas studies and expertise that confirms absolutely his statements about how Chinese and Okinawan MA was taught in the old days...

[Seizan]

Hello folks,

I can certainly find no information to refute the cited article, despite its lack of footnotes, credible referenced sources, and firsthand knowledge. I can find no references to the teaching or training methods as described. I must assume my library of reference material is faulty.



It seems I know less about original Okinawan training than Mr. Durbin. I apologize for pointing out the shady integrity of the author and daring to question the veracity of his research, which by standing on its own authority so well supports certain preferred views. Also, since John appears to be better versed regarding my own writings, dojo, kyodai, seniors, and Sensei than I, I apologize for my ignorance in these matters, too.

With that, I respectfully leave this ship to his steering. It's certainly poor taste on my part to upstage someone who is attracting such a wide audience. I will restrict myself to lesser areas where my lack of knowledge is more patiently tolorated.



Regards,

Seizan

[Stryke]

The complete lack of sources does pull the article strictly into the realm of do you beleive his opinion .

I feel it a huge leap to attach the conformity of kata to Itosu , the prime culprit would have to be economic and larger classes .

And of course possibly the Dai Nippon Butokukai .

Perhpas he is taking the Heian phenominom and attributing this to all kata , a huge generalisation .

I havent seen any disagreement that kata do change and adapt , and I would think this was more common in the past than now .

I do not see how it validates any new form , except for the statement that it validates that it is possible .

anythings posisble huh ?

the most Concrete thing Ive heard was Seisans comments on the other forum , though i would hope for more information .

[Bill Glasheen]

I've been both watching and participating in this discussion. At times it is entertaining and informative. At other times, I'm scratching my head and wondering why some people are behaving the way they do and/or choose to confront individuals as they have.

It should be said that petty behavior can be found in academia. Generally people are well behaved, but the research elite has its share of "personalities" as well.

I must be getting older (or wiser), because I can't take some of this behavior too seriously any more.

Or maybe it's that endorphin buzz I'm enjoying after squats tonight.

There's a lot of good information making it into the thread, and it may serve to motivate some to dig deeper. And there most certainly is no reason for anyone to get worked up over good questioning and an honest attempt to enlighten.

- Bill