Descendents of Shushiwa

Rick Wilson · Post by **Rick Wilson** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:55 am

"Who said they don't change? I didn't."

I was posting on the thread my comment just happened to come after yours.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:18 am

There is nothing more difficult, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in it's success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things. Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions, and lukewarm (indifferent, uninterested) defenders, in those who may do well under the new." Nicolo Machiavelli (1469-1527)

Rick Wilson · Post by **Rick Wilson** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:21 am

“If you are always following then you are always behind”

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:48 am

theres something inherent in some folks nature Rick , otherwise we`d still be sitting in our caves , content we`d found fire

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:48 pm

One liners are great but don't address the issues..

I'm waiting to see all the new versions of Sanchin or the new forms you "innovative-non followers" are going to be coming out with...

No need searching for the holy grail of the "$ecret 4th Uechi kata" I would assume either, I mean that's going backwards isn't it?

Hell seems like Kanei already did quite a bit of innovating, changing around Dad's katas, but I guess more change equals more leadership...

Then again if you have blank areas you have to fill them in with something--even if you have to make it up..

Change is good, change is great, but best to know what you have before you innovate.

I think all good teachers innovate but teachers of a style still *follow* that style until they make a new one..

Looking forward to seeing all these new styles about to emerge..

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:46 pm

Jim,
I'm basically a Shotokan guy and have been working on learning what's in certain kata of that style. One of the things that I've been doing is taking the Shotokan kata and comparing them to the matching kata in Isshinryu. What I've found is that even though both have kata that were changed from the originals (Kanku/Kusanku, Hangetsu/Shorin based Seisan, Empi/Wansu, Gakanku/Chinto) that they both still retain many of the same themes even though the techniques can be very different. People have been changing these kata from the get go, so change isn't a big deal if sensei Smith has a different but effective method from one in the kata for dealing with a kick or a grab.

CANDANeh · Post by **CANDANeh** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:01 pm

Hell seems like Kanei already did quite a bit of innovating, changing around Dad's katas, but I guess more change equals more leadership...

From my understanding Kanie`s father was observing the changes Kanie was making such as adding to Seisan kata itself. Why the seemingly drastic changes such as additional kata and maybe removing this or that...we need to seek the source to be certain. However, Toyama, the Shinjo`s and others who were with Kanbun aided in changes...apparently Kanbun did not force stagnation.
Living examples of evolution exist here in North America. Why is it that GEM`s senoir students perform the main three kata differently? Also I have witnessed changes in the kata of senoir students of GEM over the decades...this indicates to me that the style is "live" not like a moment frozen in time. Were they given building blocks and constantly stack and restack them as understanding grows?
Never have I heard one of them say...Mine is the right or only way.
Yet... like blocks we gave our children (mine were homemade

), regardless how they stack them we recognize the blocks and we wish for them to use thier imagination.

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:34 pm

Apparently many folks here don't take the DNA thing seriously as do some CMA.. This is why lineage is so important in CMA--tracing your stuff back to the source through a verified line of qualified teachers. Is this not why everyone is so interested in going back to Fuzhou to find the original system?? Sure seems that way to me.. The gift passed to us represents generations of hard work and represents the "encoded framework" of the system, not something to be changed for fun..as this would tend to unravel the DNA threads. As I said change is change but reckless wanton change doesn't get it for what I do or have or would teach.. Again, I'll take the Temple's version over the Japanified version any day...

As far as my system goes we keep busy with the load of source material that sits there stairing at us.. I have no reason to change the DNA of my style, perhaps after 30 years and exposure to myriad systems, but that IMO is about creating a NEW style and who is qualified to do that IMO would not be "Sensei Smith" no matter how good he can "catch a kick". Moreover, I see no one changing any of the *new* Uechi forms or other additions which appear to be on the long road to preservation..

JMO..

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:11 pm

How has this gone from is Bill's Suparempai the real deal.. to Uechi is a flawed system??? Like that's never been suggested before.

Hmmmmmmmmm

Willy · Post by **Willy** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:19 pm

More of the same garbage from Jim. CMA's are better than anything coming out of Japan. I'm sick of your constant dissing of Uechi and methods. My system is better nanana nana! I feel like I'm reading the words of a 9 year old!

I'm a Misssouri kind of guy. Have you fought any Uechi guys recently, how did you fair?

If your WC system is so perfect how come every WC student I've had was so easy to hit?

Why not discuss the issues instead of just comming on hear and dissing the system and the people training it.

Why are dissusing Uechi kata etc, do you train it? or is your purpose just to flame Uechika and their system.

Do you have a school were you teach so we could see your perfect unchanged system?

Are you actively training and teaching anywhere or are you as it has been sugested a keyboard commando, not active in the arts who's only purpose on these boards is to tell us:

1. You feel we don't know what we are doing or are doing it wrong

2: WC has a more ridgid approach to teaching which you prefer(We got that part we've heard it like 1000 times from you)

Have you got anything else?

JimHawkins · Post by **JimHawkins** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:28 pm

Apparently I can't discuss the merits, or not, of not of changing forms and the facts surrounding the history of Uechi's forms without it being "dissing"... I agree, Uechi's history is far too sensitive a topic..

No problem; Subject closed I won't comment further...

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:55 pm

JimHawkins wrote:Apparently I can't discuss the merits, or not, of not of changing forms and the facts surrounding the history of Uechi's forms without it being "dissing"... I agree, Uechi's history is far too sensitive a topic..

No problem; Subject closed I won't comment further...

Uechi history is not sensative. People saying that we pursue it because our hisory is sketchy...well...

Willy · Post by **Willy** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:34 pm

It's a dissussion form, you can enter any dissusion you wish if you stay on topic. The question in your case is can you do it with out pissing on people who don't see things your way.

You've got some pretty sacrasitic comments for folks who might chose to innovate and change within their system.

I don't think anyone has decided to start their own style,we just study the style.

You free to discuss anthing you wish Jim, the question remains can you do it without insulting Uechi folks or telling us your glorious style is better. I suspect you can not,.BTW. How is the training going have you found a training partner? Are you actively training or just a keyboard guy. can we visit you school see you in action?

With all this talk of how great the yip man system is I kind of want to see it with my own eyes. Where is your school? do you allow visitors? If the method is so much superior I've just got to see it with my own eyes.

I've crossed arms with some WC folks and ate them, but maybe they were just poor. Where is your school located I'd like to see this progression you are always going on about.

Just about everytime someone has posted a WC clip you have claimed it's poor WC not as per Yip man. So if I'm going to see WC I want to see the real deal where you teaching these days?

I haven't planned the family vacation this year, possibly I can kill two birds with one stone.

I think this has been asked before, are you listed in GEM's links list? Do you have a location, a web site...anything?

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:34 pm

I think Jim has a valid point that we pass on forms for a reason, and I don't think anyone here would disagree. But the essence of the forms can remain the same while the expression varies from person to person, instructor to instructor, generation to generation.

And clearly Wing Chun has changed over the generations as well. Jim, you're focused on Ip Man Wing Chun but the Ip Man style is just one of several Wing Chun styles, what changes did each style's founder, Ip Man included, make to create their style? Yes Ip Man taught the same 3 forms he trained in, but can anyone truly say that Ip Man made no changes to anything he was taught?

Willy · Post by **Willy** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:20 am

I think what some might miss is that when someone tinkers and changes a kata they still retain the orignal methosd and are just exploring variations of the theme.

No one is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.