Shaven Armpits

[-Metablade-]

Interesting.

http://www.4to40.com/health/index.asp?a ... vedarmpits

[Bill Glasheen]

I think people read too much into what amounts to a fashion statement.

"I am one of the apparently few U.S. women who has never shaved her armpits or legs. It never made logical sense to me, so why do it? I've heard the argument that shaving those regions is more sanitary. Then why, I volley back, don't men shave their armpits? Why, in fact, doesn't everyone shave their heads if lack of hair is so sanitary?"

****

Several psychologists and feminists have speculated that men like the shaven look because it makes women look prepubescent - young, innocent, and unthreatening.

Well then what would these psychologists and feminists have to say about the bodybuilding world? In that venue, men shave their bodies from nose on down, and anything that the tiny bathing suit doesn't reveal. Bodybuilders, after all, are supposed to represent a superficial representation of the physical Platonic ideal.



So what's up with that?

Unspoken here is a penchant for many modern young women to shave their pubic areas. Is this more of the same subservient, preadolescent stuff? Or is it just a fashion statement?

I still remember my mom seeing long-haired men in the sixties, and mockingly asking me if it was a man or a woman. God bless her soul...

Enjoy your hair, or lack thereof!

- Bill

[-Metablade-]

ULP!
(shudder)

[Bill Glasheen]

Call me kinky, but... Drew Barrymore does something for me. Maybe it's because she doesn't try to be any stereotype of a woman in the roles she chooses. Very natural. What you see is what you get.

Or so the Hollywood personna goes.

She can sport armpit hair all day long in my book. Once again, probably just a fashion statement. It's no different than the bodybuilding guys in my gym choosing to shave their bodies. It's all fine by me.

But Puuuleeeeeze don't be wearing that spandex, guys. Some things in my book are just best left for private viewing by "interested parties." Call me what you want to call me; just don't be prancing that stuff in front of me.

My son goes ballistic if he has to wear shorts shorter than his knees. That's the trend these days. He can't help but laugh at the days of guys with big hair in short NBA trunks.



- Bill

[Mary S]

Bill, I'm looking at the picture of the "Platonic Ideal" you posted and can't help but wonder - where are his insides?????

(Smart women wax)

[Bill Glasheen]

I picked a very, very old "ideal" from the bodybuilding world. That was back in the days when tummies were considered bad. This fellow is literally sucking his gut in. That's just what they did back then.

This is a more modern pose, complete with real abdominal muscles.



As the saying goes, even a blind squirrel can find a nut now and then. Westerners eventually learned the value of good trunk muscles, and the bodybuilding world now reflects it.

(Check out the "chi" debates elsewhere.)

- Bill

[Valkenar]

Several psychologists and feminists have speculated that men like the shaven look because it makes women look prepubescent - young, innocent, and unthreatening.

I've never quite agreed with this point either. There might be some truth to it, but I think for the most part it's just a reflection of our culture's general expectation that women should spend a lot of time trying to look nice (ostensibly for men). While less prevalent among the average man, hairless or nearly hairless bodies are also presented as the ideal for the male form at this point in time. It's not all that much more than a matter of fashion it seems to me.

However I do think there is a legitimate complaint to be made that fashion for women often emphasises helplessness and weakness.

[-Metablade-]

I've never quite agreed with this point either. There might be some truth to it, but I think for the most part it's just a reflection of our culture's general expectation that women should spend a lot of time trying to look nice (ostensibly for men).

And the problem with this is?

[Valkenar]

I've never quite agreed with this point either. There might be some truth to it, but I think for the most part it's just a reflection of our culture's general expectation that women should spend a lot of time trying to look nice (ostensibly for men).

And the problem with this is?

Depends on your perspective. One is the feminist perspective. I'm not particularly well-versed in feminism, so I'm not really equipped (should I make my own joke here or leave it to someone else?) to deliver a well-reasoned treatise on the subject, but here's some of what feminist theory I do know.

One feminist perspective says emphasis on woman's looks is objectifying and often obscures any other qualities women may posess. This can be seen even in the martial arts where pictures of men result far less often in a chorus of "whoo, sexy" from the women, whereas pictures of women often do result in precisely that kind of reaction from men.

The argument is that this demeans women by implying (or at times outright declaring) that a woman's main purpose is to be desirable to a man, while, in contrast, men are valued for their accomplishments and personal qualities apart from either their physical attractiveness or desirability to women.This is the attitude that says women aren't useful, they're just pretty things to be protected and put on a pedestal where it just so happens that they have a harder time finding equal pay, treatment and respect.

This kind of talk often generates a great uproar of "oh noes, pcism!!!" these days. This is the rallying cry of everyone who likes the status quo, usually because it benefits them. Now there certainly are problems and excesses in what might be termed the "pc movement". Over-sensitivity to labeling and even condect can definitely get out of hand. Many people would like to argue that all issues with sexism are in the past and that nowadays there's no inequality at all. Certainly there are far fewer men these days who will openly admit to thinking that women aren't really their intellectual or effectual peers, but my *impression* (note that I'm not declaring this an iron-clad fact) is that there's still a significant number of women who feel that these kinds of attitudes are prevalent enough to affect their lives.

Another feminist (or woman's well-being oriented) argument is that this emphasis on physical perfection compounds another cultural problem: the unrealistic ideals of physical perfection. It can be argued that telling women they should spend a great deal of time looking nice for men causes a great deal of undue anxiety and self-doubt. That old gag about women asking "does this make my butt look big" basically presupposes that women are neurotic about their appearance. And the cause of this widespread neurosis (if you believe that exists) could arguably be traced to the combination of unrealistic body ideals along with repeated insistance that looking nice for men is what's important and makes for a good woman.

Here's a non-feminist point of view: Even if women and men were equally obligated to focus on their appearance, this implies an acceptance of superficiality in a culture that is already loath to look beyond the surface of whatever is bright and shiny and new. In my mind, anything that exacerbates the trend to value appearance to the near exclusion of any other criteria in selection is the opposite of what this society needs right now.

[Dana Sheets]

A friend of mine who is European asks me:
"Why do American woman try to look like little girls?"

[AAAhmed46]

actually it's strange, islamic teachings say men and woman should shave thier arm-pits.

It's not a sin NOT to, but it's said it's better.

I wonder why?

Maybe because the desert is so hot and want to be able to be easy to bathe?

[Bill Glasheen]

Body lice.

Back in the day, the early settlers in the U.S. shaved their heads as well, and wore wigs. It was more sanitary. They didn't have lindane back then.

- Bill

[-Metablade-]

One feminist perspective says emphasis on woman's looks is objectifying and often obscures any other qualities women may possess.

Meta: That may also be purely objective.
This statement *could* speak to a view in which men would not have the capacity to "not to" choose to obscure other qualities of women other than appearance. Objectification is a personal personality trait (or flaw), by mode stemming from certain thought patterns in relation to abject social criteria.
It is not an inherent and/or naturally attached quality in men.

The argument is that this demeans women by implying (or at times outright declaring) that a woman's main purpose is to be desirable to a man.

Meta: While an unpopular view, biologically, that is an accurate statement, in the sense of "desirable to a man" for the purposes of reproduction.

while, in contrast, men are valued for their accomplishments and personal qualities apart from either their physical attractiveness or desirability to women.

Meta: So in that statement, I assume you refer to the attractiveness of men from a "superior provider" sense, yes? If so, that is also accurate. Most women are naturally predisposed to a male who is "alpha" in personality if you will, and has access to resources, over purely physical attributes.
Men, on the other hand, generally are attracted first to physical attributes, as we are much more visual in nature biologically speaking (which leaves the obvious conclusion that women tend to be more cerebral in nature) and in any event, such item as breast size or waist to hip ratio for obvious reasons are again, generally the first to be noticed, for the aforementioned reproductive reasoning. (or lack thereof.) LOL!

Another feminist (or woman's well-being oriented) argument is that this emphasis on physical perfection compounds another cultural problem: the unrealistic ideals of physical perfection. It can be argued that telling women they should spend a great deal of time looking nice for men causes a great deal of undue anxiety and self-doubt.

Meta: There is a lot to be said on this topic, but the bottom line seems to be: Unfortunately that is generally the price to be paid with the respect of being able to reproduce with what could be seen as a higher quality resource availability, or, the perception of such.

That old gag about women asking "does this make my butt look big" basically presupposes that women are neurotic about their appearance. And the cause of this widespread neurosis (if you believe that exists) could arguably be traced to the combination of unrealistic body ideals along with repeated insistence that looking nice for men is what's important and makes for a good woman.

Meta: While that may indeed be true, it is also true that no one, man or woman, willfully sets out to procreate with a person they find physically unattractive, lest they have ulterior motives and are engaging is said behaviors for other benefits.

Here's a non-feminist point of view: Even if women and men were equally obligated to focus on their appearance, this implies an acceptance of superficiality in a culture that is already loath to look beyond the surface of whatever is bright and shiny and new. In my mind, anything that exacerbates the trend to value appearance to the near exclusion of any other criteria in selection is the opposite of what this society needs right now.

Meta: Then again, pretending that both men and women do not have biological requirements or are not compelled at least in part from genetic hardware to be attracted to certain physical attributes will lead us nowhere. I would argue that what society needs most, is honesty within themselves, as a species. Only from an acknowledgement and acceptance of what truly drives us from a biological perspective can we then build a foundation of empowerment which suits the needs emotionally, physically, and sexually of each gender.

[-Metablade-]

A friend of mine who is European asks me:
"Why do American woman try to look like little girls?"

As to that:
The Japanese take the cake.
What I could tell you regarding male/female roles and expectations would literally make your hair stand on end.
It's not exactly female circumcision, or stoning, but they pretty much make no bones about what they expect a woman to be........Luckily, things are generally progressing..but slower than I'd like.

[Bill Glasheen]

Feminism is useful, but feminism can often get in its own way.

Feminists preached that the reason why Johnny played with trucks and Susie played with dolls was because of environmental influences and social pressure. So between the sixties and the eighties, a good deal of academic research money was spent trying to prove the point. And the conclusion? Stick Johnny in a room with a selection of toys and no influence, and he is more likely to play crash the trucks. Stick Susie in the same room, and she is more likely to play with dolls. Girls learn language earlier. Boys are more likely to think abstractly. Girls look at faces. Boys follow things. In going from point A to point B, girls look for features, while boys prefer orientation. A girl is more likely to turn a map upside down when plotting a course south. Etc., etc.

Men and women are different. Duh!!! I never noticed.

I agree with Meta about honesty. Let the truth reveal itself. Let people be open with their thoughts and emotions. Let us respect each others' unique points of view.

I disagree with EXCESSIVE political correctness. There are legitimate reasons why women are attracted to "bad boys" during ovulation and men like the hourglass figure. Those who have not can whine all they want; at the end of the day, the selfish gene rules. Understand it, and deal with it.

The problem with trying to suppress instincts programmed into us - and downright shunning people for even mentioning them - is that sometimes we prevent people from doing what they need to do in their own self interest. If you're obese, you're obese. You are less fertile, and you will die earlier. Read it and weep. Get over it, and get your ass to the gym. Stop eating crap. Turn off your TV. Don't blame someone else.

If I was a doctor, this is what I should be telling my patient. If I suggest that at work, I would be fired. C'est la vie.

The only problem I have is when people use modern medicine to disguise bad living rather than getting to the source of their problems. Instead of doing plastic surgery on your face at a relatively young age, wouldn't it be smarter not to smoke, and to spend less time at the tanning salons?

What-ever. Live and let live. Just don't complain about your lot in life if you have choices.

- Bill