why do I see more style bashing?

[JimHawkins]

Not hard to see the differences between Muay Thai and Uechi--based on kata and training--or between MT any other style of Southern Chinese Martial Art for that matter--If they weren't different they wouldn't be different styles..

Uechi (like most southern styles) and MT use different structures, mechanics, tools and different "ideas" in terms of attack and defense.. Both styles have also changed in recent times..

But I mean for crying out loud there isn't even a Round Kick in any Uechi kata... take this and the fact that MT uses FISTED hand strikes most of the time and you see two huge differences that are minimized in the same breath by saying--it's all in Uechi.. You can't have it both ways, or worse ALL WAYS and make real sense anyway..

I understand that folks do not want to incur the wrath of "Borg Bill". Suggesting that any art is different than Uechi may well be taken to say that Uechi is then NOT LIKE that style, which implies that BIll's Uechi is NOT something that Bill wants to claim direct or indirect ownership of which seems to be almost everything. Otherwise, saying Uechi does not have "something" found in another style may also be taken to suggest that something is lacking in Uechi, or Bill's Uechi--or so it seems--an indirect "diss".

This *all is in Uechi* is the universal benefit of the "don't box me in" position and the finger pointing utility; It allows one domain over everything.. But whatever... You are welcome to this position Bill if you really want it and can handle the responsibility..

I say speak the damned truth as you see it, despite how PC it may or may not be!!!!!!!!

[Andrew Heuett]

I hear you. Let's try this. I think I know the Uechi kata pretty well (except for sanseiryu). Give me an example of one of the turnovers or throws that you are thinking of. Perhaps I can find an example in Uechi kata.

This may be a bit off subject, but here's a thought I've been bouncing around for awhile. Hypothetically, if he shows you a turnover or throw that you aren't familiar with and you later find the same turnover or throw in your kata, did you really get the technique from your Uechi kata or did you get it from Muay Thai?

The reason I bring up this question is because I've seen people state that a technique is straight out of their form, but they didn't realize it until they saw that move from some other style. It may very well be that the move was in the form, but they were not able to see it unless they already had the technique from another source. Doesn't seem like a form is very useful for teaching a particular technique if you don't realize it's in there until you learned it elsewhere.

Also, has anyone here watched someone show how a technique is hidden with in a form and only come to the conclusion that it was only elaborate sophism?

I hope none of this offends, I'm aiming to find counterpoints to my ideas to test their validity.

[benzocaine]

I say speak the damned truth as you see it, despite how PC it may or may not be!!!!!!!!

Ok I'll do it!

No one style has it all... every style has it's inherant weaknesses

[Bill Glasheen]

Jim

I'm glad I'm not your student.

But just to enlighten you...

* Uechi Sanchin kata has seiken fists in it, Jim, straight from China. Apparently you missed that. They occur in multiple places, and from the beginning to the very end of the form. Meanwhile it doesn't have a single shoken in it - a technique considered the signature of the system. Go figure.

* Kanshiwa kata has fisted thrusts. That's Uechi Ryu, Jim.

* Kyu and Dan kumite have roundhouse kicks. Dan kumite is a BLACK BELT REQUIREMENT for Uechi Ryu - much as some would like it not to be. No roundhouse kick? No black belt.

* Uechi Kanei's Kyohon - the bible of Uechi Ryu - has a picture of a young Okinawan doing a roundhouse sokusen (toe kick) at the level of someone's head. It's a beautiful 8 by 10 photograph - kind of hard to miss. What's all that about, Jim? How can this blasphemy exist in the bible of Uechi Ryu??

Honey, hide the children!

You remind me of bible literalists, Jim.

You are entitled to practice Jim Ryu. But keep your box off of me and off of this style. We don't need yet another individual lacking imagination saying "That's not Uechi!!!!" It's especially ridiculous hearing from someone who doesn't practice the style.

- Bill

[Dana Sheets]

There's a question here around the idea that an entire style exists within its kata and that a system may not claim something that doesn't have a kata posture to match.

Is that really a good definition of a style?

[MikeK]

Bill and I may disagree on what's in a kata but we agree on this point. I don't know of any Shotokan kata (at least in the original 18) that has a round house, spinning back kick or a myriad of others that I've been shown. There is also a lack of pointy things in the kata but along with those other kicks they are part of Shotokan, documented and taught. Just because something doesn't appear in a Uechi kata doesn't mean it's not a part of the system. Karate doesn't end with kata.

[Bill Glasheen]

Here's Shinjo Kiyohide testing Shinjo Narahiro's Sanchin.

Ever heard of the Shinjo name?



Wait, but what's that? It's one of five (5) places in Uechi Sanchin where the hand is in a seiken fist position.

Wait, but what the heck kind of lame technique is that Shinjo guy using to test his brother's Sanchin? I think someone needs to take (5 time world champion) Shinjo Kiyohide and teach him what "real Uechi" is.

Be my guest!

- Bill

P.S. With utmost respect to the Shinjo family, and everything they have done for the Uechi system. I have had the honor and privledge of working out with both of these gentlemen. They both are "scary good."

[JimHawkins]

The structure of the two styles is clearly different...

Just because A has something of B, or worse DOESN'T..it does not mean A=B..

Nor will studying A "longer" change this.


On the other hand you win...

Muay Thai, as is with all styles, is a subset of Uechi..



"You will become one...with the Borg.." ~ Locutus

[Bill Glasheen]

In the Venn Diagram of knowledge, they intersect quite nicely. Because they intersect so well, it's easy to wander back and forth between the two. Before long, you can't tell where A ends and B begins.

No classical mess here!

Most any good martial system can be treated this way. I believe everyone should have a base around which they work their ideas and principles. Get at least to shodan level before you branch out. But there's no stopping people from extending that sphere in the manner of the Borg. What one encompasses at the end becomes one's personal ryu. And that was the way it was intended all along.

MY opinion, of course...

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

We practice martial arts.

What is an art?

1) Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.

Lots of lattitude there!

6a) A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities.

Lots of lattitude there as well! Note the use of the word "principles" rather than dwelling only on methods or confining someone to specifics.

- Bill

Source: The American Heritage Dictionary

[MikeK]

What one encompasses at the end becomes one's personal ryu. And that was the way it was intended all along.

Oh poor, poor Bill. Really now, if karate was meant to be personal why is there only one style of karate? Wouldn't you think if it were personal that there would be different variations on how things are done, and of course there would be a variety of kata and training methods. But alas there isn't and so we'll have to leave you to your fantasy. Next you will be saying that there is more than one style of music. I only wish I knew where you came up with this stuff.

[Bill Glasheen]

Bird = Muay Thai

Fish = Uechi

Where do you draw the line? What would happen to this piece of art if you did?

Where is the "center" of each animal domain?

- Bill

[-Metablade-]

1. Why are people so immature as to dismiss other styles in this way?

One word:

ego.

[MikeK]

Where do you draw the line? What would happen to this piece of art if you did?

Where is the "center" of each animal domain?

You could draw a line where at least one of the arts starts to specialize in order to excel within a certain set of parameters. At that point if will likely surpass the generalist art within those parameters.

[jorvik]

I must say that this is a very strange discussion one of the things that puts me off doing Uechi is all this nonsence that I'm hearing that Uechi is everything .It's judo Aikido and Thai boxing ........and that is why it took Kanei three years to learn Sanchin, because he had to learn all the gun and knife applications and the anti-terrorist techniques
come on let's have a little bit of intelligence here