why do I see more style bashing?

[JimHawkins]

This is a good example of how the same move can be done with or without a blade..



Not much outside the box there.. WCK has been doing knife work since there were knives in the system--over 150-200 years now..

[Bill Glasheen]

in my honest opinion, if you take a top tier Muay thai man and put him against a top tier uechi-ryu guy, the uechi guy would MOST LIKELY lose

In what? Checkers? Foosball? SAT scores? Thumb wrestling?

Not to be abusive but... I guess I will be. On the surface this statement appears to be just plain dumb. It's more martial masterbation.

Pick a Muay Thai venue, and a Muay Thai guy is likely to do better. Pick a common Uechi venue, and the Uechi guy is likely to do better. You'll do well in what you train for.

Throw them both out in the street, and the strongest/meanest will survive.

It's worth noting that a different sort of person practices Muay Thai. You won't be going to such a gym if you weren't young enough, strong enough, and tough enough to take some full contact work. Same for boxing. It creates its own selection bias.

Meanwhile...

Many traditional martial arts cater to a broad range of people. You get tough guys like Van, Art, Bob Campbell, Jim Malone, Joey Pomfret, Ric Martin, Gary Khoury, Kiyohide Shinjo, etc., etc. But you also get weekend warriors, doctors, secretaries, kiddies, the elderly, etc. "It" encompasses a wider range of actitivities, so the activity has a slightly more representative sampling of the general population.

You don't often hear about taiji warriors of doom, but barebones taiji is some pretty nasty stuff. Meanwhile, the activity attracts the elderly and couch potato professionals in droves. It's low impact, so can cater to people who can't exercise in most other venues. It's greater benefit ends up being lowering blood pressure and managing osteoarthritis - something Muay Thai probably would fail miserably to deliver on.

Those Uechi warriors who have chosen to enter the full contact arena - a select group by definition - have done well.

Many Uechi warriors are getting their butts shot at in Iraq now as I type. I can name names. They make this whole dueling pissing contest look pretty silly. Those are the real professionals in the warrior arena - by definition.

Come to George's camp and work with Joe Pomfret. And this isn't a challenge. He's a nice guy. I've had the honor to get on the mat with him and have him whup me (eventually... ). Fun stuff...

Shinjo Kiyohide puts on a camp in the states usually once a year. He can't make it this year but... Try to make one of these camps.

Go down to the local Y and put some boxing gloves on. Get in the ring and have some fun. Then open your eyes, and look who else is around.

Your perceptions may change.

- Bill

[Jake Steinmann]

in my honest opinion, if you take a top tier Muay thai man and put him against a top tier uechi-ryu guy, the uechi guy would MOST LIKELY lose

In what? Checkers? Foosball? SAT scores? Thumb wrestling?

Not to be abusive but... I guess I will be. On the surface this statement appears to be just plain dumb. It's more martial masterbation.

I'll go you one further, and ask "who cares"? Why does this style vs. style stuff matter?

The way I see it, there are four basic reasons why anyone trains in a martial art.

1. Self-defense: They want to learn how to protect themselves.
2. Sport: They want to compete, and enjoy the competition offered by various martial arts/combat sports.
3. Culture/history: They enjoy learning about another culture, preserving a historical fighting system, and exploring that system.
4. Fun

In NONE of those contexts does style vs style matter. If you're concerned about self-defense, the odds that you'll be jumped by a guy in boxing gloves and thai shorts are a lot lower than the odds that, say, you'll be mugged with a knife. Martial artists don't go around mugging each other, unless you live in a Jet Li movie. Culture/history? Who cares? You're trying to preserve a particular fighting style, so there's no reason to worry about how you would fare against others, particularly others that your style would never have encountered (Thai fighters did not take on Samurai, for example). Fun? I guess if you find these debates fun, I can't say your wrong, but people have plenty of fun without them.

The only context is which style vs style can possible become relevant is sport. But even in sport, it's not about style, it's about whether or not you train for the contest. Obviously, if you take a Uechika whose training regimen consists of doing his kata three times each class, some kyu and dan kumite, maybe a kanshiwa bunkai or seisan bunkai, and a little sparring at the end, and throw him into a ring with a Thai fighter who has been expressely training for this contest, the Uechi fighter will get slaughtered. But there's nothing that would prevent the Uechika from putting on gloves, training without the gi top, doing tons of sparring drills, and otherwise prepping himself to fight in the ring.

This "my style can beat up your style" crap is just that: crap. It belongs in the same place as chi-blasts, flying swordsmen, and death touches. The garbage, or the cinema.

[JimHawkins]

The way I see it, there are four basic reasons why anyone trains in a martial art.

1. Self-defense: They want to learn how to protect themselves.
2. Sport: They want to compete, and enjoy the competition offered by various martial arts/combat sports.
3. Culture/history: They enjoy learning about another culture, preserving a historical fighting system, and exploring that system.
4. Fun

In NONE of those contexts does style vs style matter.

Good observations.

But let's look at this a little differently--I majored in marketing--lets look at this from more of a business angle.

MA and styles are products or services with brand names and sales appeal--that's a fact of survival. This is something I'll bet that George has got more a handle on than most around here.

What are the markets--say most new <adults> signing up and staying for a long time and who do you want signing up? What do these different markets want in a MA and the reasons why they are shopping for a martial art.

This is serious stuff for the dojo owner or kwoon owner to consider.

What are most guys in their 20s looking for in a Martial Art?

The reasons they are training may have a range, but will they be looking for--starting from the bottom of the list:

Fun?

Probably not the reason this group is looking. There is plenty of fun to be had in more mainstream activities that are cheaper and more available.

Culture/history?

Probably not a lot of male scholars in their early 20s.

Sport?

Again lots more mainstream and cheaper choices are around.

Self-defense?

Okay now we're getting somewhere.

But IF self defense for the male between 18-24 you have to consider what self defense means to that person or group..

And has this "self defense" definition changed yet?

The odds that you'll be jumped by a guy in boxing gloves and thai shorts are a lot lower than the odds that, say, you'll be mugged with a knife.

Indeed he won't be wearing his gear but he may well have been yesterday for the 20 year old in a scrap.

Boys <and sometimes girls> will somwtimes be bad and I know that for most of the young men that I have worked with--now add to that list, is not "self defense"--the kind we talk about on Van's and other forums so much as simply wanting to have the ability to FIGHT!.

I know many a Martial Artist including one 9th Dan who began his studies in MA at this age, early 20s because he got his ass kicked by some smart ass Karate guy.. This fellow promptly went off to a dojo the next day or so and told the gentleman who ran the school that "He wanted to learn Karate.."

You have to be familiar with what goes on in different urban or even sub-urban areas among these young men and how they feel about their "fighting ability".. Most of the guys..No actually ALL the guys of this age I've ever worked with started because of this kind of "issue" and may well have had some experience like the 9th Dan did.

So if "Fighting Ability" is a key reason that some age group is seeking out Martial Arts you have to look at the reputation that each has.. The UFC and NHB I guarantee you have made a big dent in this market and so reputation may become even more important for those systems not really seen as "fighting styles" in the modern era. Some styles may be known by insiders as fighting styles but not known as well by outsiders. All this stuff becomes very important to large organizations and schools looking to get fresh <adult> blood onto the roles..

So comparisons of this type IMO will remain relevant to certain key groups when they choose what they want in a Martial Art and where they spend their money. Smart business's people are aware of this and will take the necessary steps to make their art or style at least *appear* competitive in this area. Others will go one step further and upgrade the training to make it more competitive in this area which is Capatolisim at work in the dojo.. In the end I think this and these kinds of issues will be on the map for some time.

[jorvik]

Well I'm not knocking Uechi coz I dunno what it is. Too many conflicting viewpoints So I guess I'd need a clear definition of uechi before I could knock it. Heck you can't even agree on the name ...or the range, or you take something like body conditioning as the major part of it when historically it was just a crowd pleaser at displays.
Now you see I don't want a mish mash of badly thought out ideas I want something definite. something I can go "Yeah that's cool" and do it, or " No!! that *****, keep it"
Now I've seen uechi that looks like basic aikido, actually p*ss poor aikido ..I wouldn't do that I would go and learn Good aikido
that is the problem. I expect folks to give me what I pay for, but you have folks here who don't even know what they are doing or why they are doing it

[AAAhmed46]

in my honest opinion, if you take a top tier Muay thai man and put him against a top tier uechi-ryu guy, the uechi guy would MOST LIKELY lose

In what? Checkers? Foosball? SAT scores? Thumb wrestling?

Not to be abusive but... I guess I will be. On the surface this statement appears to be just plain dumb. It's more martial masterbation.

STYLE vs STYLE is crap.

But TRAINING METHOD A vs TRAINING METHOD B is not crap.

The muay thai kickboxers train HARD, and thats the key to thier success.

I didnt say uechi-ryu is inferior to muay thai, if i did i would not be learning uechi-ryu, im just saying there are more competitive full-contact muay thai people running around then there are uechi-ryu people, so muay thai guys have a deeper pool of talent to draw from.

[Bill Glasheen]

But TRAINING METHOD A vs TRAINING METHOD B is not crap.

The muay thai kickboxers train HARD, and thats the key to thier success

Can I assume from this post that you aren't training "HARD"? And if not, why not?

- Bill

[sgoss1]

Thanks for the entertainment.....

It's fun to watch someone throw out the bait and observe the frenzy!

It seems that as soon as one's passion (a particularly favorite style, or the one practiced regularly) is attacked, a defensiveness sets in.

Personally, I've practiced Uechi for many years. I know it, and I am comfortable with it. I've dabbled in other styles, including Muay Thai, but not NEARLY enough to pass judgements on them.

It simply amazes me that anyone would denigrate, or otherwise criticize, another style without having a good understanding of it.

It's been stated on this thread that it is not the style that is lacking, it is the teacher or the practitioner who is lacking. Wise words--a conclusion that EVERY martial artist should have already come to and have accepted.

In the modern world of "let's get in a cage and kick the s*#t out of each other", the criteria for what is good, reasonable, and effective have changed.

The criticism and defensiveness sure seems to me to be a lack of faith in what one is doing. Why the need to defend one's style if the only definition of effectiveness is that it works for the individual?

There was a smart man earlier in this thread---Andrew Heuett:
_____________________________________________________________________
Hypothetically, if he shows you a turnover or throw that you aren't familiar with and you later find the same turnover or throw in your kata, did you really get the technique from your Uechi kata or did you get it from Muay Thai?
_____________________________________________________________________

This is GREAT! The chicken or the egg?!?
CERTAINLY one should learn by observing other systems! For those who think their own styles are "complete"--stop and think. If you HAVEN'T experienced looking at something else and gone home to search your own system to see if you missed it or can discover it, you're really missing something.

There's a whole "subset" of Seisan I investigate based on a technique from Shorin-ryu that caught my eye. Traditionally in Uechi? That could be argued forever, but I certainly didn't see it until that day....Did I take the idea and expand on it? Certainly. But I credit that one move in Shorin for putting that thought in my head, rather than pretend I saw it on my own.

For argument's sake, I'll say that ALL systems are lacking. That's why it's important to pull one's head out of the sand and, if nothing else, OBSERVE. Accomodate and integrate when you want to, discard when you don't.

(Intrinsic debates are the best! There can't be an endpoint!)

SG

[Bill Glasheen]

Congratulations on all the promotions out west there, Steve. Give my best to the gang.

- Bill

[AAAhmed46]

But TRAINING METHOD A vs TRAINING METHOD B is not crap.

The muay thai kickboxers train HARD, and thats the key to thier success

Can I assume from this post that you aren't training "HARD"? And if not, why not?

- Bill

Well the school im at trains hard, but other uechi-ryu schools, when phoning around, dont seem to take that route.

THink of it like this: Gather about ten random karate people from uechi-ryu or goju-ryu from okinawa and get ten people from thailand.


5/10 karate dudes probably do hard sparring and training and conditioning, 5 out of ten use mass kicks.

9/10 muay thai people train full contact.
You cant make a name for yourself in mauy thai if you do touch contact sparring.


Muay thai schools do essentially, conditioning and more conditioning and spar, spar, spar, drills and pad-work, spar.

Karate schools would have to learn eight freaking kata, pre-arranged kumite, some light sparring, some drills, more learning kata(since there are so many) some bunkai then maybe at black belt you do full contact sparring.

Unless of coarse there is a small group of people, training changes but....you know what i mean.

[Bill Glasheen]

I take it your teacher won't kick the *^%$ out of you in class tonight.

But... But... Do YOU train "HARD"?

You don't need to answer me. Just look at yourself in the mirror tonight. That's the only person you need to answer to.

- Bill

[AAAhmed46]

Dude, these days im always sore when i walk out of class, my thighs hurt....and not because of squats.

[Bill Glasheen]

Do you depend upon your teacher to get the best out of you? Do you rely on the dojo for all your training and practice? How much karate do you do outside class? What about weights? Plyometrics or olympic-style lifting? Style-specific training (jars, etc.)? Interval or aerobic training? Diet? Proper sleep? Reading?

Again, I am not the person you need to answer to.

- Bill;

[AAAhmed46]

Do you depend upon your teacher to get the best out of you? Do you rely on the dojo for all your training and practice? How much karate do you do outside class? What about weights? Plyometrics or olympic-style lifting? Style-specific training (jars, etc.)? Interval or aerobic training? Diet? Proper sleep? Reading?

Again, I am not the person you need to answer to.

- Bill;

But i will answer it:

Dojo: I rely on it alot for practice, thats where i learn my bread and butter, and it's three times a week so its alllll good.
Outside of class: I try to get together with random losers, but the fact is that sometimes they are not in the mood so i cant really do much. Usually bout once a week though.

WHen i go to the gym(usually twice a week) i try to hit the bag whenever i can, though it *****, bad crappy ass bag.

Also i realized that when i keep my hands up, i tend to keep my gaurd too close to my chin and needs to be slightly higher, my gaurd is really killing me when i spar.

Try to get my flexibility up, and every now and then i will do a kata or two, though it isnt my focus as of yet, i leave that for class.

Exercise: I used to rely on push-ups and machines for chest and tri-cep strength, but now i realize i have been holding myself bag from increasing my strength exponentially. Very recently met up with two MMA guys in the gym. In terms of pure stand up technique, i think i punch, knee and elbow better then them, but they kick like donkeys(they do the same thing rick and randy do when kicking, using weight) and thier intent and toughness, conditioning is terrifying, also i have not seen them grapple, but everything they do seems to lead to the clinch and takedown, atleast thats what i gathered from conversation, meaning they can rape me on the ground(or stand up, since they have waaay more intent)
They told me that if i wanted to maximize my fitness and strength, i have to do heavy weight lifting and stop with light wieghts, i need to increase my mass so i have more mass to throw into my punches when using body mechanics
Cardio i try to run for about ten minutes non-stop at a uniform speed at an incline of three and a speed of six. I cant take it like i used to since i slacked off for like two weeks however on that department.
For my stomach, i do sit ups and crunches, though i need for find more exercises.


Advice on abdominal exercises?

[MikeK]

At the moment I don't train hard. I used to but goals changed as did the focus on what's important to me at the moment. So I'm currently not a hard trainer, but that will be changing as I have a goal to meet at the end of the summer.