why do I see more style bashing?
Moderator: Available
-
James Watt
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:21 am
- Location: Tokyo
I wonder how the different styles of Uechi fare against each other in competition. I'm not a fighter, nor do I really understand the politics of Uechi (I'm new-both to Uechi and the forum), but I've seen at least three different teaching styles, three different interpretations of the kata, and three different ways of doing conditioning (some of them very painful).
And I'm still not sure why they are different.
(Sorry if this is off-topic, but except for my first teacher, most of my instructors have kind of looked down on the other forms of Uechi. I thought it matched.)
And I'm still not sure why they are different.
(Sorry if this is off-topic, but except for my first teacher, most of my instructors have kind of looked down on the other forms of Uechi. I thought it matched.)
-
fivedragons
- Posts: 1573
- Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:05 am
"I've seen at least three different teaching styles, three different interpretations of the kata, and three different ways of doing conditioning (some of them very painful)."
The thing is, there are about 100,000,000 ways of applying the movements in the kata.
Think of snowflakes, and cherry blossoms.
Of all the instances of violence in this whole bloody world, there has never been two seconds that were identical. Or maybe there were a few, but whatever.
The thing is, there are about 100,000,000 ways of applying the movements in the kata.
Think of snowflakes, and cherry blossoms.
Of all the instances of violence in this whole bloody world, there has never been two seconds that were identical. Or maybe there were a few, but whatever.
Last edited by fivedragons on Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
James Watt
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:21 am
- Location: Tokyo
I can see that there are different real world applications for kata movements, but I was surprised to find that the kata themselves were different in subtle ways. Kanshiwa's final block and shoken, Seichin's opening, and a whole bunch of Seisan are, at least a little, different at the different dojos I've visited.
Also, some dojo's teach bunkai, some don't. Some teach limited sparring, some use sparring instead of bunkai.
I was just wondering if this was a function of style or of a teacher's preferences. And whether there is a big difference between okikukai and whatever the other one is.
Also, some dojo's teach bunkai, some don't. Some teach limited sparring, some use sparring instead of bunkai.
I was just wondering if this was a function of style or of a teacher's preferences. And whether there is a big difference between okikukai and whatever the other one is.
-
James Watt
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:21 am
- Location: Tokyo
-
fivedragons
- Posts: 1573
- Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:05 am
No, I'm drunk and don't know anything about Uechi-ryu other than the incredibly mangled versions of sanchin and kanshiwa that I practice. 
I deleted because I don't have anything to offer, in regard to your question. Good luck!
Don't worry about politics and different interpretations. The only thing that matters is how much you learn, and what you do with the knowledge.
Find a good teacher. You'll know when you find him.
I deleted because I don't have anything to offer, in regard to your question. Good luck!
Don't worry about politics and different interpretations. The only thing that matters is how much you learn, and what you do with the knowledge.
Find a good teacher. You'll know when you find him.
-
James Watt
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:21 am
- Location: Tokyo
Thanks. I think I've been lucky in having a few good teachers so far (I move a lot), and I think it's helped seeing different interpretations. I was just wondering why they were so different.
(I stay out of politics in general. I don't even know what flavour each of my teachers has subscribed to. But I'm still curious about what the differences are.)
(I stay out of politics in general. I don't even know what flavour each of my teachers has subscribed to. But I'm still curious about what the differences are.)
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
James
You're asking legitimate questions - the kinds I asked in my first 5 or so years of Uechi Ryu training.
You will see differences going from dojo to dojo. If you walk into my school, I would HOPE you saw things we do and a combination of activities that can't be found elsewhere. That's my personal stamp. A master is entitled; that's his job.
The real question is "What is core, and what is personal execution?" As an instructor who has been a judge at many Uechi tournaments and promotionals, I see all kinds of individual variations. I often can identify the teacher based upon what I see.
A certain amount of variation is fine. First of all, you are SUPPOSED to grow in the practice of your kata. As you get better and understand more, you're supposed to layer your broader and deeper understanding on the foundation you build. Every new idea must be resolved with the core, or things will be disjunct. Then you need "time for the spices to blend." Plus... Emphasis in the style can vary by age (kids vs. adolescents vs. adults vs. middle-aged vs. retired), gender, build, personal approach (preservationist, LEO, soldier, sport karate practitioner, self defense, warrior of doom mentality, casual weekend warrior, fitness buff, etc.) and other factors.
Sometimes teachers create whole classrooms of clones, thinking that their view is the chosen one. Other teachers (George is a great example) encourage individuals to bring the core art in whatever direction is appropriate, so long as they can perform a handful of routines agreed upon by The Association.
I teach ukemi (rolls and falls) almost from day one. It isn't a requirement. Other "not required" things I blend into my personal dojo are weapons (Okinawan, Filipino, contemporary), a few Chinese kata I've picked up from Fuzhou practitioners, a proficiency in kicking, encouragement to do weight training, encouraging individuals to bring their art in their own direction (Rich with the Marines, etc.), developing ambidexterity with all movements in the system, etc.
You will find individual variations especially in bridge kata. These are relatively new, and some variability IMO is actually appropriate. They need time to age properly.
I personally do a pair of movements in Seichin that Itokazu had in the original form but were removed. I can't imagine not doing these movments, and wonder sometimes if the Okinawans wanted to keep these away from the Gaijin. It's the kind of martial move our Marines should be taking with them to the battlefield. But it no longer is in the "official" form. Go ahead, Uechi world, do it your way. I'm keeping what we do.
Know what I mean?
An angle here, and extra block there, a different way of turning here, etc., etc.... Sometimes it matters, and sometimes it doesn't.
What matters most over time is how you do the movements, and whether or not you can make it work for your particular application in life.
My opinion, of course...
My Dan Kumite probably look like no other in the Uechi world. I've spent decades working on subtle aspects of it, and am very proud of what we have. It has layers and layers of complexity, and addresses many (but not all) of the complaints of the peanut gallery. It gives something for my students to chew on for years. And all that is a good thing. It shows I'm trying to make the art relevant, real, and contemporary w.r.t. the body of martial knowledge around me.
We do however try to practice some core of the style that most people can agree upon. Consensus isn't a bad thing.
- Bill
You're asking legitimate questions - the kinds I asked in my first 5 or so years of Uechi Ryu training.
You will see differences going from dojo to dojo. If you walk into my school, I would HOPE you saw things we do and a combination of activities that can't be found elsewhere. That's my personal stamp. A master is entitled; that's his job.
The real question is "What is core, and what is personal execution?" As an instructor who has been a judge at many Uechi tournaments and promotionals, I see all kinds of individual variations. I often can identify the teacher based upon what I see.
A certain amount of variation is fine. First of all, you are SUPPOSED to grow in the practice of your kata. As you get better and understand more, you're supposed to layer your broader and deeper understanding on the foundation you build. Every new idea must be resolved with the core, or things will be disjunct. Then you need "time for the spices to blend." Plus... Emphasis in the style can vary by age (kids vs. adolescents vs. adults vs. middle-aged vs. retired), gender, build, personal approach (preservationist, LEO, soldier, sport karate practitioner, self defense, warrior of doom mentality, casual weekend warrior, fitness buff, etc.) and other factors.
Sometimes teachers create whole classrooms of clones, thinking that their view is the chosen one. Other teachers (George is a great example) encourage individuals to bring the core art in whatever direction is appropriate, so long as they can perform a handful of routines agreed upon by The Association.
I teach ukemi (rolls and falls) almost from day one. It isn't a requirement. Other "not required" things I blend into my personal dojo are weapons (Okinawan, Filipino, contemporary), a few Chinese kata I've picked up from Fuzhou practitioners, a proficiency in kicking, encouragement to do weight training, encouraging individuals to bring their art in their own direction (Rich with the Marines, etc.), developing ambidexterity with all movements in the system, etc.
You will find individual variations especially in bridge kata. These are relatively new, and some variability IMO is actually appropriate. They need time to age properly.
I personally do a pair of movements in Seichin that Itokazu had in the original form but were removed. I can't imagine not doing these movments, and wonder sometimes if the Okinawans wanted to keep these away from the Gaijin. It's the kind of martial move our Marines should be taking with them to the battlefield. But it no longer is in the "official" form. Go ahead, Uechi world, do it your way. I'm keeping what we do.Know what I mean?
An angle here, and extra block there, a different way of turning here, etc., etc.... Sometimes it matters, and sometimes it doesn't.
What matters most over time is how you do the movements, and whether or not you can make it work for your particular application in life.
My opinion, of course...
My Dan Kumite probably look like no other in the Uechi world. I've spent decades working on subtle aspects of it, and am very proud of what we have. It has layers and layers of complexity, and addresses many (but not all) of the complaints of the peanut gallery. It gives something for my students to chew on for years. And all that is a good thing. It shows I'm trying to make the art relevant, real, and contemporary w.r.t. the body of martial knowledge around me.
We do however try to practice some core of the style that most people can agree upon. Consensus isn't a bad thing.
- Bill
-
James Watt
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:21 am
- Location: Tokyo
Bill
Thank you very much for your reply, the detail was totally unexpected, but absolutely appreciated.
I'd would have liked to think that I have developed enough in my study to be able to see the differences in Uechi styles and be able to take them into my own. But I guess I still have a lot to learn.
Maybe a big part of my problem is that when I left Toronto, I was still a lowly 7th kyu. I searched for a suprisingly long time for a Uechi dojo in the area I live, and when I found one, everything seemed different. In retrospect though, a lot of the techniques I'm seeing now I vaguely remember seeing in the old dojo, only practiced by the upper level students and senior instructors. Maybe that's why I was so confused by the newness when I got to Japan, I just didn't (and probably still don't) have enough experience.
To be honest, I think that "my style" may lay in the old dojo. I was peppered with work and school problems when I was in Toronto and wasn't able to go nearly as often as I would have liked, but now that I go to the new dojo almost every day, and though I really respect my new teacher, I'd really like to go home for a little and see what I missed out on the first time around.
I am guilty of being blinded by the little gold rings on people's belts, and I think that's why I wanted to question it this time. Just to be sure.
(Plus, I still dislike the Sanchin testing. Even if it doesn't hurt so much anymore.)
Wow that was long. Sorry. Apparently I had issues to get out.
Thank you very much for your reply, the detail was totally unexpected, but absolutely appreciated.
I'd would have liked to think that I have developed enough in my study to be able to see the differences in Uechi styles and be able to take them into my own. But I guess I still have a lot to learn.
Maybe a big part of my problem is that when I left Toronto, I was still a lowly 7th kyu. I searched for a suprisingly long time for a Uechi dojo in the area I live, and when I found one, everything seemed different. In retrospect though, a lot of the techniques I'm seeing now I vaguely remember seeing in the old dojo, only practiced by the upper level students and senior instructors. Maybe that's why I was so confused by the newness when I got to Japan, I just didn't (and probably still don't) have enough experience.
To be honest, I think that "my style" may lay in the old dojo. I was peppered with work and school problems when I was in Toronto and wasn't able to go nearly as often as I would have liked, but now that I go to the new dojo almost every day, and though I really respect my new teacher, I'd really like to go home for a little and see what I missed out on the first time around.
I am guilty of being blinded by the little gold rings on people's belts, and I think that's why I wanted to question it this time. Just to be sure.
(Plus, I still dislike the Sanchin testing. Even if it doesn't hurt so much anymore.)
Wow that was long. Sorry. Apparently I had issues to get out.
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Express yourself freely. Nobody else here holds back!
You don't have to like a one-way beating, by the way. I personally like more of a give-and-take attitude in a Uechi dojo. IMO it develops a better mindset. I think your concerns are legitimate.
Many of your opinions will evolve. And that would be a good thing.
- Bill
You don't have to like a one-way beating, by the way. I personally like more of a give-and-take attitude in a Uechi dojo. IMO it develops a better mindset. I think your concerns are legitimate.
Many of your opinions will evolve. And that would be a good thing.
- Bill
-
James Watt
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:21 am
- Location: Tokyo
Express yourself freely. Nobody else here holds back!
You may regret that. I can be found all over the internet making an ass of myself.
You don't have to like a one-way beating, by the way.
To be honest, I'd rather not go through with it, but my dojo options are severely limited where I live. I could train alone by the riverside near my house in the mountains (how's that for zen?:) ) but I'm learning a lot from my teacher. I might just take a break after my shodan test, but that feels wierd. As if I feel like I can teach myself better than my sensei can.
It's just the sanchin part, really.
Many of your opinions will evolve. And that would be a good thing.
I hope so. If they didn't, I wouldn't only fail as a karateka, I'd fail as a person.
You may regret that. I can be found all over the internet making an ass of myself.
You don't have to like a one-way beating, by the way.
To be honest, I'd rather not go through with it, but my dojo options are severely limited where I live. I could train alone by the riverside near my house in the mountains (how's that for zen?:) ) but I'm learning a lot from my teacher. I might just take a break after my shodan test, but that feels wierd. As if I feel like I can teach myself better than my sensei can.
It's just the sanchin part, really.
Many of your opinions will evolve. And that would be a good thing.
I hope so. If they didn't, I wouldn't only fail as a karateka, I'd fail as a person.
Hell, look at how this article looks damn it!JimHawkins wrote:That's a Bruce Lee-ism...AAAhmed46 wrote: The bullshido code:
ALIVENESS!Have to ask... Why is he a "dope"?AAAhmed46 wrote: because the guy training in it is a dope(like phil elmore)
http://www.themartialist.com/0703/pointcounterpoint.htm
Go one bullshido and search his name, also go into thier 'articles' section.
He has no real training yet preaches about it, but there is more to it.
HIS OWN WING CHUN SIFU SAID HE IS A DOPE!!!!!(came on phil's forum and critisized him, i wish i had it, but cant find it, but take my word for it, his own sifu thinks he *****)
"Martialists, who understand the realities of force and self-preservation, rightly believe there should be no argument. "
People with very little training who never get in fights and scare homeless people for fun. Ok. Next I'll be taking marital advice from a priest.
http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?na ... 213&page=1
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthr ... hil+Elmore
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthr ... hil+Elmore
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthr ... hil+Elmore
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18723
Plus you should look at some of kickcatchers comics about phil
http://www.bullshido.net/gallery/showph ... puser/7205
http://www.bullshido.net/gallery/showph ... puser/7205
One thing I rag on this guy for is the fact he treats people so poorly for no reason. He picks on homeless people(other then his article on that one encounter, he descretely insults them) why? Because he feels superior. He thinks after a few lessons of Martial Art's he's T3H D34DLY, and he's just iching...literally dying for a confrontation. He attemps to pick fights all the time, by his take.
I got news for this guy: Life is not a ##### ninja game.
More style bashing.
HBO BOXING'S JIM LAMPLEY BASHES MMA
Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - by Ivan Trembow - MMAWeekly.com
Avg. User Rating
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(photo courtesy of HBO)
The voice of HBO Boxing, Jim Lampley, bashed the sport of MMA on Monday during his guest-hosting gig on Jim Rome's show.
While UFC president Dana White continues to say, as recently as last week in the Washington Post, that the UFC is "coming soon" to HBO, it seems pretty clear that Lampley does not approve and will not be rolling out the welcome mat when or if the UFC does sign with HBO.
Lampley said that while boxing is a real sport, UFC events are nothing more than a bunch of bar fights. Lampley showed no respect for MMA or its competitors, even saying that MMA fighters are "not athletes."
Mixed martial arts and the UFC were repeatedly referred to as "no-holds-barred fighting" by Lampley, even though that hasn't been true since 1994. He apparently didn't even get the proverbial memo about how Zuffa added all of the rules in 2001.
Lampley went on to say that any of the top fighters from the UFC or K-1 would lose very quickly to a top boxer. That may be true in a boxing match, but it would certainly not be true in an MMA fight.
Even if an MMA fighter did beat a top boxer in an MMA fight, Lampley said it would "mean nothing" because "it's a bar fight," and he could go to a bar at any time if he wanted to see a bar fight.
Regarding the popularity of MMA in the United States, Lampley said that the UFC will never be bigger than boxing, which is already a factually incorrect statement when it comes to TV ratings and all but the biggest boxing pay-per-views.
Lampley, who has come under fire from some boxing fans in the past for "cheerleading" the HBO-backed fighter in many major boxing matches, is not exactly Mr. Credibility, so his comments should not come as much of a surprise. As the long-time play-by-play man for HBO Boxing, Lampley is also a major player in the old-school boxing crowd, the majority of which feels very threatened by MMA as it continues to chip away at boxing's audience.
-
Rick Wilson
It is a money thing Adam.
Money has created as many problems in martial arts as egos.
Lampley simply does not want the competition for air space.
He is deliberately ignorant of MMA and has no intention to learn because he does get any money from it.
He will never learn about MMA because then he might not make as much money from boxing.
The day MMA puts dollars in his pocket I can assure you he will be shouting from the roof tops about how MMA has gone far beyond its bar fighting roots to be a real sport.
Dollars are the only thing that will convert this guy.
Money has created as many problems in martial arts as egos.
Lampley simply does not want the competition for air space.
He is deliberately ignorant of MMA and has no intention to learn because he does get any money from it.
He will never learn about MMA because then he might not make as much money from boxing.
The day MMA puts dollars in his pocket I can assure you he will be shouting from the roof tops about how MMA has gone far beyond its bar fighting roots to be a real sport.
Dollars are the only thing that will convert this guy.
