why do I see more style bashing?

[Stryke]

Adam , they do have similaritys and bare in mind I`m an expert in neither .

However I have trained a little in both , and they approach and teach differently .

this to me is even more important than what they teach .

you could do Bas Ruttens groundwork and then say ... hey it`s similar to BJJ , is it Judo ?

same reason I brought up the Shotokan Kyokushin analogy , you could catagorise most of the techniques as damn near identical in many aspects . Yet training methods and objectives clearly make a huge difference .

I think you could acheive proficiency in certain ranges with either , however they are distinct .

I dont think it matters to much , but i think the BJJ = Bascially Just judo doesnt allow for the level of sophistication and mastery that it has developed . All account for the specialisation focus .

also the level Judo has acheived within it`s own sport focus , a BJJ guy would struggle in olympic judo

On a wide level you can claim all arts are the same IMHO ( in fact I think I have ) , but on the surface they have specialities .

In the end it comes down to the group , the club , and instructor , I however do not beleive , one could walk from a judo club as a blackbelt and go straight into BJJ with blackbelts and say this is the same ...

and vice versa .....

crossover and familair portions yes , but the same .......

I guess I agree with the Bullshdokas to a degreee , in the fact the individual could explore them to the point they are the same

however on the surface they have clear preferences and specialitys .

not sure if thats clearer .

but i do feel it`s more than just a re labelling excercise , more cousins than clones

[AAAhmed46]

Yeah i hear you, and yeah BJJ=Basically just judo is stupid, and proven wrong if you look at Royces fight against that big Judo guy(The guy from holland i think), they did different things clearly, fought with a different approche.
Also, i have heard(not sure) that Helio and Carlson went around trying to learn stuff from Sambo and wrestling and what not, then ended up throwing in what they do.
Judo has evolved too...but im wondering how exactly. I dont know for sure. Anything you know?

Besides, that post was made to discuss the rare occurance of a BJJ guy insulting Judo talking about it being an inferior grappling art to BJJ should seriously consider BJJ's roots as a style, and to dismiss judo would be to dismiss many elements....many GOOD elements of BJJ.

Im aware that in a BJJ school, a submission would GENERALLY be taught in a way that would best be described as better then a judo school considering the focus.
But does that mean Judo submissions are worse, or that it just isnt emphasized?

Is a karate fighters punch worse then a boxers because of how he/she punches or is it the fact that the boxer throws a million punches every class?

[jorvik]

the thing that I find very strange about this thread and talk generally of a martial nature, is that folks don't think of it as Martial
they feel that they must defend an art because they do that art ...............You wouldn't do the same with a car. If you bought the very latest car and it didn't live up to the sales talk. You'd be really p*ssed, and you'd get rid of it right away.and you tell everybody what a cr*p car it was .....Same with a gun that didn't shoot straight, why is it different with MA's

[AAAhmed46]

Because a Hummer would never out race a viper, but a viper can never cover the terrain a hummer can.

Fact is that, though we see muay thai people beating *insert style* fact is that, the techniques used by styles that are succesful are not very different from other styles, they just happen to have training methods that are the norm of every gym. They fight full contact, condition, do drills.

When they beat *insert style* they punch and kick like anyone else, their just much better at it because of what they do.

Look at Chinese San shou fighters, hung gar clubs accross north america would be eaten alive by boxers/thai boxers everywhere.


But we have Hung gar participating in san shou full contact and actually doing very very well.



WHy? Because these hung-gar guys trained very hard, and essentially followed one code:


ALIVENESS!












And you do wing chun.

With all due respect, wing chun has a reputation just as bad as karate in terms of performance.


So who are you to say karate ***** when you study a style that gets just as badly pounded?

[jorvik]

Quote
"And you do wing chun.

With all due respect, wing chun has a reputation just as bad as karate in terms of performance.
So who are you to say karate ***** when you study a style that gets just as badly pounded"

See it all comes down to this "My Dad can beat your Dad" ...............I didn't mention any style I could be talking about Roumania Kalaripyat versus Argentinian jiu jitsu.the fact that you assume I am saying Karate *****.says more about your opinion than it does about mine

[a.f.]

Yes, Bill, "weakness" was probably the wrong word.

Anyway, From a Muay Thai page:

As the jab arm returns, push with the back leg, turn on the hip and shoulders, and fire the punch 3-5 inches behind your intended target

Sounds a lot like a uechi sanchin strike: drive off the back foot, torque the hips...

All arts share some basic similarities, though the details vary.

[Bill Glasheen]

Adam

You're still hung up on the "this style could do such-and-such to that style" bit. You're still stereotyping stylists as training certain ways. Don't go there.

And I still see a lot of "these people train this way, and if they don't then they're not doing their style" bullhockey. The reason why the Gracies did so well is because they went outside the "box" of "their style" and worked with other "stylists." Their minds were open and their playgrounds were inclusive. Those that didn't and believed their own propaganda got their butts handed to them. Soon everyone figured out their formula. Now there are no dominant styles in the UFC, Pride, and other arenas. There are only "mixed martial artists."

But what the hell is a MMA? It's what many of my contemporaries were doing for decades. If you're a fighter and you understand the goal, "your style" is a means to an end. It isn't a crutch, or a name to hind behind. Your teacher can't fight your battles for you. Your belt only holds your pants up. You just get some good tools (the methods of your ryu), get some good instruction, work out with a broad array of good people, and learn what you can.

And you don't let some pinhead with concrete thinking define whom you are and what you should or shouldn't be doing.

As soon as members of a style begin to believe their own legends, they get their asses handed to them. It isn't the style; it's the practitioners and what they make of it.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Adam

It's fair to say that Nippon Jiujitsu (its many variants), Brazilian Jiujitsu, and Judo are birds of a feather. Aikido is also in the same family tree.

The various lines of old school jiujitsu are the antecedents to them all. Judo is a sport, and BJJ these days is the same for the most part. Aikido is the art of "gentlemen" where the practitioner tries to be good enough not to hurt their opponent permanently.

BJJ and Judo select techniques and methods from the broad spectrum of JJ methods which allow two people to go head-to-head. Getting in the competition arenas means there is specialization and optimization for those venues. Things will change; new "techniques" will evolve. But the core is the same.

You want to see some cool stuff? Work with a fellow like Rory Miller, who studies the very old combat art of Sosuishitsu Ryu Jiujitsu. Rory doesn't really care much about winning points and matches. His job is to keep prisoners (one or more at a time) behaving. He deals with the worst of the worst and lives to talk about it. And he needs to operate within the bounds of the law. He specializes in managing bad guys in those venues, and teaches people how to do the same.

The core is the same, the specializations are what vary.

- Bill

[a.f.]

That's a good way of thinking about it Bill. For instance, most striking styles I know of use techniques described by some variation of the uechi phrase "power from the floor." I'ts just a constant because it works. That ties in with what you're saying Bill.

[Bill Glasheen]

Indeed it does.

I take "power from the floor" all the way to the ground. It takes me AT LEAST half an hour just to "review" dan kumite number 6. What we do is far more than the "vanilla" version you see taught. I've got multiple techniques between the techniques, and variations you do based upon how the person responds.

Once someone is taken down, I will FAIL THEIR ASS if I catch them lieing on the floor with groin flapping in the breeze. (I see this in a lot of Uechi dojos. What the hell kind of habit is that to teach someone? ) The battle just begins here. The person on the ground has a role. The person standing has a role. It goes on and on with a number of different branch points based upon what one or the other person does. My brain can remember many of the little "tricks" I learned, and whom I got them from. For instance I stole one BJJ thingie from Joey Pomfret. Now it's "my Uechi." (It's my Milton Berle personality.)

The point is that you don't suddenly develop amnesia to principles of movement just because you now are on your back.. The same methods apply, even if what contacts the ground has changed. The same ways to generate energy from within and manipulate energy from without apply. The same attitude of being always on the offensive applies. The same ways you get your Newtonian action-reaction between you and the floor applies, as well as controlling one's center, combining breath with movement (or not), keeping the hard/soft shield, and making the most vulnerable targets unavailable to the opponent.

I always have great fun teaching folks the "standing" connections to what they do on the ground, and then joking about how blasphemous my thinking is. But you know... Joe Pomfret never cared what the hell he was doing when he competed in the full contact arena. He just did it. Often at the end he couldn't even figure out why certain things kept working. But his instincts were well trained (between his Uechi and BJJ), and the part of his brain that needed to know things did. That's all that mattered in the end.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Well put

The point is that you don't suddenly develop amnesia to principles of movement just because you now are on your back..

And this also applies to you on your feet as the other is on his back.

In #6 we condition our neural pathways to embed the delusion that after I take you down and stomp on your nuts or other ‘million dollars’ technique, you are debilitated to the point of posing no further threat_ so I can safely roll you away from me, instead of ‘roll/control/finish’ so you really stay down.

I teach ‘roll/control/finish’ with knee/arm placement even using verbal commands for you to stay put.

I don’t care rolling you away on the assumption you are ‘done for’ only to have you pull a hidden blade and slash your way back to upright position.

Some teachers get very insulted by this ‘control’ display [that’s not Uechi], some don’t.

_ Yeah but...Van..In a real fight we wouldn’t throw you away_

You really want to bet?

Why is it that lethal force teachers now prohibit you from catching empty brass or magazines in your hand and putting the same in your pocket?

Why do they prohibit handing back the gun to your partner after a disarm drill?

[jorvik]

http://www.break.com/movies/quickload.html

[AE Moores]

Bill sensei,
You come up to Waltham? That's about 45 min. away from our new dojo. Hmmmmmmm?

Andrew

[Bill Glasheen]

Andrew

Yes, the secret is getting out. Even my business e-mail address on my card is the Waltham-based subsidiary of my parent company. (I have 2 other aliases...) Funny... My boss is in Eden Prairie, MN and his boss is in Waltham.

I'd be delighted to work out with your gang again, Andrew. You guys are the best. You know how much I've stolen from... I mean we think alike.

- Bill

[AE Moores]

Bill sensei,
Like always, you are always welcome. Just let me know.

Lately for conditioning we've been doing a ton of body weight/core training.

Kumite and Kata have been our theme this year. And let's not forget about Blauer SPEAR principles.

I'm in the beginning stages of training for the 2007 Sabaki Challenge, so much of our Kumite drills are based for that style of competition.

Basically.... we are having fun in our new dojo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!