This is legal?

[Bill Glasheen]

I would bristle with anger but leave him alone. If he gets out of his car and starts yelling insults at me, i would yell insults back.

EDIT:
If he stays in his car i would be on my way. If he gets off, but has not guns i would have nothing to worry about, he is handicapped, no reason to use fists. Im rather passifistic anyway.

That would be a pretty normal response. But... Have you engaged in any behavioral modification?

I liken responses like that to putting pheremone-laiden Japanese Beetle traps in your yard in the summer. You will attract and kill literally hundreds of Japanese Beetles, and I suppose that makes you feel pretty good. Meanwhile for every bug that goes in the trap, there are quite a few females not interested in the female scent and just enough males making it on your property and not going in the bag. They will do the nasty, eat your greens, and then leave their progeny in the ground for you to deal with next summer. Then you have a worse problem the following year.

But you feel really good killing all those beetles, right?

How about a different approach? If you want to show what kind of man you are and how much courage you have, why not offer to help this disabled vet get his groceries in his vehicle? Ask him about his tour of duty. Listen! If this man went off to war, he has some REAL martial stories to tell. Ask him if he wants to share some of that over a cup of coffee at Starbucks - your treat. Don't tell him you are Muslim. Just get to know him and show him a good human being.

I'm willing to bet that this gentleman is suffering from PTSD. Been to combat? It comes with the territory. We martial artists should have some sympathy, if not empathy.

From 1977 through 1992 I was in an apartment in Charlottesville. It was owned by an old Greek couple. About once every month or two, they'd get on the phone and rail against their tenants about something. Most of the tenants hated them. I soon learned the truth - they were desperately lonely. I'd acknowledge the concern, and then stay on the phone with them for at least an hour talking about anything that came to mind. I'd go pay them visits every few months. I'd trim their bushes, shovel the snow off the walks, and even plant some summer gardens that would make them brag to their neighbors. We developed a fabulous relationship, and I gained from that. And I think I made the sunset of their lives just a little bit better.

I'm betting this man could use a friend. Imagine you, Adam, destroying all his preconceived notions about "Arabs" and "Muslims." Imagine making the world a better place - one person at a time.

Some people don't deserve that kindness. But I sense this man needs it, and has earned it. I could be wrong... But is it braver to get in his face, or disarm him by being the friend he never knew he could have? Could you actually kill him with kindness?

Have you ever gone up to a screaming, threatening person, and just stood calmly and peacefully within striking distance? If it's just a barking dog looking for a chase, it freaks them out. Who is controlling whom?

Just a wild thought...

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Thanks for the legal opinion, Norm.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

But the question was: Is america proud of this kind of american.

"Proud" of the individual? The answer is obvious, Adam. Look through the thread. Words have been used by me and others to describe the behavior. These words did not require prompting by you.

Given the context, the emotion I feel is sadness.

But tolerance of the behavior makes me feel proud to be an American. By testing the limits of free speech rights, this individual unwittingly has established the boundaries of my own rights in this country. And he also has established the rights and privledges of a Muslim American as well.

Ponder that.

Now consider this, Adam. Consider the right of a Muslim to practice his religious beliefs in this predominantly Judeo-Christian country. Now put a Christian in any number of Muslim countries, and consider his or her rights and personal safety.

Read the results of the polls I posted, Adam. Don't obsess over a single data point. Look at the big picture.

The world is most certainly full of opportunities for improvement. I share your concerns.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Statute of Religious Freedom

1777

Jefferson first drafted his “Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom” in 1777. Although it was not enacted into law until 1786, it firmly established the principles of religious freedom and the separation of church and state and provided the basis for the First Amendment’s clause on religion.

***

Be it enacted by the General assembly, that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, not shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, that that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

***

[cxt]

At the end of the day what makes me proud is that I live in a nation were one can express unpopular views and people can spends days discussing them.

In many places you can't do either.

I am appalled at the guys bumper sticker--would love to have the chance to confront him about it.

Perhaos its simply a response to the anti western rehtoric that is daily printed in Muslum papers and shouted from Mosques all over the Muslum world.

We are often asked by those on the "Left' to consider "what we may have done to cause the behavior?"

And to an extent they are right--self reflection is a valuable thing.

But its valuable to pretty much everyone.

[f.Channell]

Go to an army and navy store and they sell lots of those stickers.
Some worse than those.

At least you know what's in front of you riding in traffic.

F.

[Mary S]

Norm if you squint your eyes and look at the "boycott" bumper stickers for the Adhess Market you will see that there is some text that, I believe, states: "Owned and operated by disgusting Muslim Arab maggots". I can't make out the other boycott sticker.

Would that be considered directed to an individual or individuals? (i.e. would that text be direct enough to bring into force the Fighting Words Doctrine?)

[AAAhmed46]

here is the probloem with polls: I read a poll on the BBC that made the opposite of your polls obvious.

So what to believe?


Also look at ''negative charecteristics non-muslims associate to muslims'' and compare it to ''negative charecteristics muslims associate with non-muslims''. Seems from the poll they dont like eachother.

Now, why is this?

Now it SEEMS these polls were after 9/11.

What would they read if they were taken BEFORE?


As you can tell from my responce, it's mixed up.

Hence is my feeling toward polls.

Some polls say things are all dandy between muslims and non-muslims.

Other polls say they hate eachother horribly.


While things certainly are not dandy, they are not super-uber bad as in these polls.
But what does the truth lean more toward? The dandiness or the horribleness?



So what is the status? What is really going on?

Two different polls tend to say two different things.

Remember the election? How many polls said bush was going to lose?


But he won his second term.

I'm betting this man could use a friend. Imagine you, Adam, destroying all his preconceived notions about "Arabs" and "Muslims." Imagine making the world a better place - one person at a time.

Some people don't deserve that kindness. But I sense this man needs it, and has earned it. I could be wrong... But is it braver to get in his face, or disarm him by being the friend he never knew he could have? Could you actually kill him with kindness?

Have you ever gone up to a screaming, threatening person, and just stood calmly and peacefully within striking distance? If it's just a barking dog looking for a chase, it freaks them out. Who is controlling whom?

Just a wild thought...

- Bill

But would he even be civil? How do you change someones mind when they are not even civil toward you?
If he is, then maybe. If not, how can i talk to him if he wont listen?

[AAAhmed46]

Ponder that.

Now consider this, Adam. Consider the right of a Muslim to practice his religious beliefs in this predominantly Judeo-Christian country. Now put a Christian in any number of Muslim countries, and consider his or her rights and personal safety.

Read the results of the polls I posted, Adam. Don't obsess over a single data point. Look at the big picture.

The world is most certainly full of opportunities for improvement. I share your concerns.

- Bill

What country? Christians in palistine are left alone relatively, catholics in particular since the pope spoke against the war in Iraq.
same with protestants, though most muslims view catholics and protestants as basically the same(which they are not).

Malaysia is pretty mellow, very modern.

Tunisia is pretty good too, not the best but better then saudi arabia.

Uzbekistan tends to suppress all realigious voice, so christian, jew, or muslims, as long as your not openly practicing your religion....ANY religion your fine.


In Libya, any religion other then really devoted muslims would be treated equally, as long as you are not a muslim with a beard or who carries a Quran, your fine. That said, there is a chance whats-his-name would be freaked out by christians as well.........






Besides, there is a reason i like canada so much. I was born here.....

And things in canada are I admit, alot better then they are in any of the muslim countries, especially in alberta.
To be honest, i think it's the number 1 best place in the world to live right now.


But at one point in history, that part of the world was the pinnicle of progressive thought and science, even Europians would travel to the east to study in the colleges and universities with relative safety.


Societies are always changing.

[IJ]

Brief comment:

I wasn't saying that there aren't large numbers of peaceful muslims, whether they're for or against the US, and certainly there are plenty who oppose terrorism. My point is that anyone who finds this speech alarming and decides to flee it is likely to find themselves in a police state which restricts their speech along with the despised hate speech we're talking about, and that many of these repressive states also happen to sport a lot of far worse hate speech against civilians in the form of support for terrorism. There's a reason why we're looking at ONE bumper sticker that says horrible things about muslims and we saw CROWDS of people celebrating the deaths of innocent civilians. No place is perfect, and yes, I'm sure every government has restricted freedoms, but that shouldn't stop us from making obvious conclusions about where you and actually do your own thing.

[AAAhmed46]

Crowds of people? You realize that most of the film used was from the first gulf war.

Not all of it, but alot was.

Yes there were people cheering, but i have yet to meet somone myself who actually speaks highly of 9/11 or cheered when it happened.

Ive met people who denied that 9/11 was done by muslims, though pretentious, idealistic and stupid, it cannot be denied that such belief is actually a GOOD thing, because it means that those who deny arab involvment KNOW it is horrible and do not want to be attributed to such a horrible act, they are in deniel because they KNOW it is immoral.

Take the news with a grain of salt.

They dont care about informing you. They dont care about right or wrong or even left or right(well a little bit)

They want VIEWERS, they want to catch your attention. The more viewers the more money they get.

They are not going to put something on thats truthful but not worth noticing, they want attention.


Remember the oklahama bomber guy? Timothy Mcfigh(or whatever)

They kept showing private militia's in the united states as nuts.

But most are not nuts, they are people like you or me, they just like guns and get together. Most dont want to overthrow the government.

Yet the news made it look like you should never trust someone who is part of a militia.

Why? Because it's more interesting!

[Willy]

My point is that anyone who finds this speech alarming and decides to flee it is likely to find themselves in a police state which restricts their speech along with the despised hate speech we're talking about, and that many of these repressive states also happen to sport a lot of far worse hate speech against civilians in the form of support for terrorism

What a crock Ian! I am alarmed by the crap on the back of the vehicle, I also am alarmed by the acceptance of it as free speech by the yanks on site.

I don't live in a police state. I have little to fear from my government In fact I find them focused on the well being of all citizens of my country. We don't torture our citizens or invade other nations to torture theirs. We are kind of a homogenous society, multi cultural. multi racial . All religions accepted as long as they don't involve human sacrifice.

We do however as a society deal with people attempting to foster hatred. This chap would probably be charged with a hate crime in Canada. We just don’t condone this type of propaganda.

Yes it smacks of 1984 and thought crimes, it could be a slippery slope but we watch our government closely and are moving towards less not more government. But when one of our citizens goes out of their way to promote hatred our legal system begins to deal said individual for the safety of all Canadians. The law is soft at the moment but we are starting to take a very dim view of this sort of activity. We have deported individuals for this offence.

From what I understand in America you can say what you want as long as you don’t cause physical harm.

Well in Canada a bumper sticker reading: The only Good Homo is a Dead Homo, would probably result in a visit from the police. The same response would occur if the targeted group was ethnic or religious. We don’t advocate promoting hatred.

You can think and feel what you wish, but if it’s illegal you can not promote it. I like that law! America does not so I'd rather not reside there. No diss Ian, your country just doesn't suport my values.

[TSDguy]

I think it's extremely likely the guy has Gulf War Syndrome and/or PTSD and if so, yes, I am proud of him. I don't agree with him, but I can't blame him. Find 10 marines that had limbs blown off and best friends killed in WWII and see how many of them are fond of Japanese. I'd be racists after that as well.

[Mary S]

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


I'm not seeing much "domestic Tranquility" when I see hatred publically promoted....you call if freedom of speech....I call it hate-mongering....

If I was a Muslim-American of Arab descent I'd call into question a government that does nothing to protect my rights not to read that filth.

I'm quite happy that my country has laws to combat hatred.

[AAAhmed46]

Im not proud of him.

Iraqi's also last freinds and family and were injured during the first stages of the war and then even now.


So when they cheer at the charred bodies of U.S. soldiers it's suddenly disgusting? Despite the fact thier country once stable is now a wasteland?

Yet were proud of this guy?

He is a soldier, his job is to shoot people, other soldiers. People who also have family and children.

Basically his employment is killing people.

He was disabled by somone who has the same job, somone who was doing thier job.

Do you think american soldiers in iraq right now have not crippled or killed best friends of iraqis?

So when Iraqis show the same attitude, they are evil?

Shouldnt we be proud of them for hating americans?



Obviously not.


So why should we be proud of this guy?