Quirky Sparring

[Icebladeraptor9]

I'm sure some people have this problem, but I started going a lot easier on people when I spar them out of fear that I'd hurt them. I knocked the wind out of someone a few years ago and hurt him pretty bad, so I guess thats where the fear started. I even go light on my senseis that I spar with that I know can take a hit, I did some slower speed sparring with Sensei Vinny, and I was hitting him lightly and I know he can definately take a hit.
I think my problem is that sparring bores me, and too many flinch away and are too slow for me, and we can't do a lot of the cool techniques and I'm bigger than most people so I'm supposed to be "gentler" or "go easier"

Any suggestions on how to break this bad habit/fear?

[f.Channell]

You should try out some open tournaments.

Also sparring two people at once might be fun. Then you can work on your positioning strategy.

F.

[Bill Glasheen]

I knocked the wind out of someone a few years ago and hurt him pretty bad, so I guess thats where the fear started.

What, no KOs? No broken limbs?

Fred's suggestions are good ones.

On the multiple opponent one, I have a barroom brawl scenario I do. Basically it's everyone for themselves. Sooner or later, everyone gets ganged up on. Nothing personal...

People get hurt in sports. Get over it. If your head is in the right place, that's the best start.

Work on control. This is a BIG reason why I do lots and lots of prearranged work in my dojo. And when people do Kanshiwa bunkai, kyu kumite, and dan kumite, I demand that they hit with proper distance and control. It starts with Kanshiwa bunkai in my dojo. If I'm in the middle and folks are attacking the air in front of me, I'll drop my hands and make them look like an idiot. No words need be said. I'll demand that I hear every hit by the person in the middle (except for the face). I'll demand that there is partial extension on all the hits (so they COULD have really hurt the person). I'll demand that they work with a mixture of big and small people, and both sexes - at the same time. I'll even make them work with my own kid and get mad if I don't hear the noise and see the proper distance when they hit. I'll have people crank up the volume (speed and power) of the attacks. Lots and lots of this work will make you very good at sparring - the sophisticated game of tag. And that's all it is in the end - a game.

Do lots of arm, leg, and body pounding with different partners. You'll get good at "just enough power" hits with time.

The affliction will cure itself over time. You'll make mistakes between then and now. Understand that and get over it. If your head's in the right place, you'll be fine.

FWIW, I've had the wind knocked out of me many, many times as a beginner. It's a rite of passage.

- Bill

[Icebladeraptor9]

I'm getting better at beating this habit, but, I get in the habit of making up my own techniques and one of them worked great for a while and it always let me get a point in via sidekick, until I almost broke someone's arm with it, so that maybe another reason why I don't hit as hard.

I've done the whole bar room brawl thing, but with rules as to only soft contact which is really annoying, Sensei Khoury isn't really big on people getting hit hard, unless there is padding involved.

I've tried a tournament, but it didn't do anything for me, and I wasn't big on sparring because there was a supposed junior black belt at the dojo at that time who had no control so I never bothered getting into sparring tournaments. When tournament season starts up again, I'm going to start because I want to get in as much training as possible for my (if im ready hopefully) dan test

I have very good control, not to inflate my own ego, but I am extremely fast, I have only seen a few people with equal speed as myself, so I learned quickly how to control my hits because most can't keep up with me at full speed (sorry for all the hubris).

I do lots of body conditioning and what you said about it has my brain going crazy thinking of how to apply such knowledge, hopefully, this will allow me to break my bad habit of not hitting hard. I'm still open for any advice anyone has, I love learning about everything I can about the martial arts.

Thanks

Justin R.

[jorvik]

I only ever spar really lightly with no contact whatsoever. in my years of training I've met a few guys who liked to "Go Hard" as they called it
what they really meant was that they liked to hit folks.surprisingly when you hit them really hard they seemed to go off the idea
now there is nothing wrong with hard full contact if it's been agreed on before by all parties but if it hasn't been, well then it's a cheap shot and cowardly
when I want to go hard I either hit a heavy bag using continuos combinations...or get some of my buddies who like that sort of thing and glove up and just go at it, full contact no strikes barred .........................maybe you should try boxing. there is nothing more humbling than getting a good beating by a seasoned heavyweight........and it'll put all ideas about heavy contact in it's proper perspective.....and you might even find light sparring your new goal

[Valkenar]

What an eerie feeling. My name's Justin, and my sensei is Vinny too. Is there any way we could be talking about the same sensei Vinny? Actually now that I reread some of the thread I think you probably work out in Lowell, right? I'd be happy to spar with you if you're ever at Brandeis when I am. Then again, if you're really the fastest guy at Khoury Academy then I'd probably be dissapointingly slow despite my own delusions of grandeur.

One question though, you say people are too slow and that the flinch away. Are they getting hit despite their flinching? At some point, isn't a flinch a dodge? I would definitely say that dodging is a skill I consciously employ to avoid getting hit.

One thing I did when I realized I wasn't being aggressive for fear of getting hit, was to just ask other person hit me in the chest a couple times. Not 100%, deathblow superpunch, but enough that I could say "that's what it's going to feel like if I screw up and get decked, nothing to worry about." You could sort of do the same thing in reverse. Ask a sparring partner if you can hit them a couple times with slightly more power than you plan on using when you spar. That way they can see that they're not going to keel over dead even if you do accidentally hit them harder than you mean to.

It definitely ***** to hurt someone else while sparring, but in the end you just have to accept that it's no different than an accidental injury in a sport. Sometimes things will go wrong and someone will get hurt, but if you're taking basically reasonable precautions you'll both be fine the other 99% of the time.

If you're talking about real full-power sparring in which case I'm not sure what to suggest, since that does have a significant risk. When you're talking about full intensity sparring you really need to be able to trust yourself and your partner to make sure nobody gets maimed. As Bill said, working on control will help with that.

[JimHawkins]

I'm sure some people have this problem, but I started going a lot easier on people when I spar them out of fear that I'd hurt them. I knocked the wind out of someone a few years ago and hurt him pretty bad, so I guess thats where the fear started. I even go light on my senseis that I spar with that I know can take a hit, I did some slower speed sparring with Sensei Vinny, and I was hitting him lightly and I know he can definately take a hit.
I think my problem is that sparring bores me, and too many flinch away and are too slow for me, and we can't do a lot of the cool techniques and I'm bigger than most people so I'm supposed to be "gentler" or "go easier"

Any suggestions on how to break this bad habit/fear?

Not sure what you are looking for.. You want to be more comfortable with sparring?

What is the exact goal?

What about using gear?

What about sparring those folks who can handle you?

What about doing some full contact training?

What is it that you enjoy doing the most and what do you want to do with your skills?

[Bill Glasheen]

Another thing comes to mind, Justin R.

People - like many animals and insects - react more predictably and strongly to speed. REMEMBER THAT!!! If you are fast, you can use this "flinch" you are talking about to your advantage.

In sparring as well as many other sports, faking (juking) requires very quick movement. People respond in proportion to dx/dt, if you're a Calculus person. Some people just can't fake because they can't move fast enough to trigger that unconscious flinch in their opponent. If you've got it, by all means learn to use it!

"Ping" your opponent with various fake moves, and see how they respond. Take a film of the response in your brain, along with the timing of the window of opportunity that results. Then do the fake again, with a finishing technique coming in at the right place and the right time.

That takes practice of course, and a really good sense of timing. But it's something you can work on and have fun with.

Then... Go back to your kata and see if some of your favorite combinations - the one's you found that work - exist in some similar form somewhere.

Back to Jim's questions...

- Bill

[Icebladeraptor9]

To Valkenar, I am not the fastest at Khoury's, but I am one of the fastest, and by Sensei Vinny, I am talking about Vinny Christianno coming to the dojo a few nights a week and sometimes I get to do a little work with him. Lowell is pretty close, its actually in Tewksbury, so if you are ever in the area and feel like seeing how fast I am, come to Khoury's some night (let me know first) so you can see.

To JimHawkins, my goal is to be a better fighter, in the sense of actually fighting, not sparring, and I want to get some sparring techniques that I can use in a real fight. Gear slows me down and I am fast or tough enough to block or take most hits except for when sparring a sensei and they can usually bypass my defenses, hopefully with some effort on their part. I try to spar folks that can handle me, but there aren't many of them, plus I am often put to work instructing junior karateka because I am apparently an effective teacher. I'm not at full contact training level just yet, I'm almost there but not just yet
I enjoy most doing a good kata because that is where I can learn the coolest strikes and the ones that I would favor in a fight, the potentially lethal ones and crippling ones, because I'm interesting in joining Special Forces, HRT or SWAT.

To Jorvik, I am not able to box just yet, my vision is absolute crap so I need glasses, and I'd like to keep them intact. I'm going to start doing some real boxing after I get corrective surgery, and I can't wait until then, so I can see, and do more aggressive fighting and martial arts, like boxing.

To Bill Glasheen, I often don't need to bother with faking because I can get my best technique in before anyone notices, oddly enough, its a sidekick, and its my fastest technique, slightly faster than my jab. When I do fake, its against people above my level, although, I have incorporated a technique Sensei Vinny uses and its extremely effective, although it looks innefective until you actually uses it. Often times the people above my level see me faking and just try to whack me, and often not so gently.


Thanks for the advice people

Justin R.

[JimHawkins]

How tall are you? What is your weight?

To JimHawkins, my goal is to be a better fighter, in the sense of actually fighting, not sparring

Well aside from going into a bar and calling out a few folks I can't think of much better training than hard sparring for developing fighting skills, other than the supplementary work that varies depending on what style and school you train at.

I want to get some sparring techniques that I can use in a real fight.

Are the "techniques" you use now not well suited for "real fighting"? This confuses me.. I don't train anything that I don't feel is fight worthy...

Gear slows me down and I am fast or tough enough to block or take most hits except for when sparring a sensei and they can usually bypass my defenses

Then perhaps you should just let the other folks wear the gear... You don't need to use tons of gear, but again, the other guy may need some.. Basic gear, like a cup and mouth guard are basics.. You can add some if needed and so can the other guy.. I'm not sure what you want to do..

How long have you been training? Even if you work with folks of lesser skill you can still work on getting your stuff better in terms of power, timing, economy, etc.. There are always folks better, if you are having trouble finding them I would suggest looking in other places.

I'm not at full contact training level just yet, I'm almost there but not just yet

Well it sure sounds like you are.. I'm not sure what it takes to officially be "there" but the best way to get there is probably to just go there..

I enjoy most doing a good kata because that is where I can learn the coolest strikes and the ones that I would favor in a fight

Such as?

I am not really a believer in using "specialized strikes", that require exact placement or sequence like kyoshu.. The moves that will work best in a real fight IMO are those that will KO the guy or hurt him--groin, throat, eyes, face, jaw, joints. These are found in most any kind of striking system and when done with body power, intent and follow-ups they will take the guy out..

the potentially lethal ones and crippling ones, because I'm interesting in joining Special Forces, HRT or SWAT.

Such as?

[MikeK]

Never mind.

[JimHawkins]

And how do you test crippling moves?

How do you know it will work?

The "cripple moves" in Wing Chun and other systems, when I hear folks telling me that they would just do a crippling move or deadly move, etc, if things went wrong just makes the BS buzzer go off with me..

The way you take someone out IMO does not involve "trick moves" but rather good basics, like power, continuity of attack and general explosive brutality...

More important is how you spar.. Folks need to evaluate the way they spar and moves they use.. Is there power there, is there control <of the opponent> there are they working moves that are high percentage for taking out the person, or are they playing a game of touch me kill me..etc...

If the methods you train are sound and you use them then you are going where you want to be, if not then change your game.. If there are other methods you want to learn then go get them..

[jorvik]

there are lots of different types of sparring. really in all martial arts we are seeking to control how our opponent reacts. With advanced knowledge comes advanced techniques which won't always work on folks who don't do the same style or have little or no martial arts instruction.
The secret if there is one is to study a tiered level of skills, so that you can spar well and fight well. sometimes in a real confrontation you will find that you will have to do very little. A one punch knockdown .other times it is more difficult.
If you don't train against kickers then you will always get beaten in sparring..............however you take those same kicking skills out on to the street and you won't last very long. I guess you have to have a base of good all round skills.....a good hard punch, good low kicks, knowledge of anatomy, trips and sweeps and elbow and knee kicks for the street...for dojo sparring you need good kicking skills and good boxing skills

[Bill Glasheen]

Justin

This is just a hunch. But where you are now, I'm not so sure you are going to find an easy way to scratch your itch. This is not to say however that it can't be done.

The best way to learn how to fight on the street is to get into fights on the street. However there are consequences.

When I think about the "street" value of Uechi kata, it isn't in the single techniques. What I see are sequences where an end is in mind. One move follows the next not just because the mechanics flow well, but because you expect a human body to react a certain way when struck, poked, or grabbed in a certain manner. This isn't the hit-on-a-dime stuff that Jim is ragging on, but rather simple things like when you whack someone in the balls (or they wish to avoid being whacked in the balls), the butt goes out and the head comes forward. And that broken-center posture is begging for a sequel, which can be found in the kata.

So you're fast (enjoy it while you have it...), and full of piss and vinegar. That's a start. Sparring is going to help some, but it isn't going to be the ultimate "itch scratcher" for you. Thinking of individual techniques isn't it either, although developing all your tools makes it easier to teach you to go the next step.

You might talk with Rich Castanet a bit. The Marines have their own martial arts program, and they don't fool around. It's a broad-based program that engages the entire force continuum, and draws from many traditional arts. And these folks like to play hard and for real. Just a thought...

- Bill

[Van Canna]

You might talk with Rich Castanet a bit. The Marines have their own martial arts program, and they don't fool around. It's a broad-based program that engages the entire force continuum, and draws from many traditional arts. And these folks like to play hard and for real. Just a thought...

This always sobers people up.