For those who don't like the tsssst...

[Bill Glasheen]

Good stuff.

Wes is a man whose martial knowledge far exceeds his years on this earth. I've always enjoyed working with him.

Probably the most important thing to remember with what Dr. King taught (the breath throw is an example) is not to stop with the flinch (the gasp). You modify the flinch ever so slightly to maximize your advantage. BUT YOU DON'T STOP THERE. You follow the gasp with an exhale - also maximizing your advantage at the moment. It can be a conscious huff, or an unconscious action which happens naturally from the movement (being breathed). This fits in well with what the RBSD folks preach. And if you squint your mental eyes ever so slightly, you can begin to picture how all these ideas and points of view start to converge quite nicely.

- Bill

[mhosea]

This is where Dr. King - a former Green Beret - steps in. He taught me a method where a flinch-like block was done with an inhale - as if startled.

Interesting. Here's a quote about breathing in Matsubayashi kata.

When interpreting the kata, the method of breathing must also be explained. There is no artificial training for breathing in kata practice. One has only to recognize that basically a defensive technique is executed with inhalation, whereas an offensive technique is executed with exhalation. -- Shoshin Nagamine

This is not to say that one ONLY breathes at those times. The only trouble with the basic idea that I (personally) have found in interpreting and performing Matsubayashi kata is that relatively few uke techniques are purely defensive, so there are a lot of judgement calls.

[MikeK]

I find it interesting to listen to the exhale as these professional athletes hit the tennis ball.

But they have time to recover from that exhale, time that I don't have when we're working on taking the other guy out within 3 seconds.

[Van Canna]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze5o7IAM2Hc

I find it interesting to listen to the exhale as these professional athletes hit the tennis ball.

F.

Aw..Fred..they are just blowing their 'chi' out the window

[Van Canna]

I find it interesting to listen to the exhale as these professional athletes hit the tennis ball.

But they have time to recover from that exhale, time that I don't have when we're working on taking the other guy out within 3 seconds.

Good question, Mike. But, according to Scott Sonnon's studies,[recall Scott was the American Sambo Champion] the inhale takes care of itself after every exhale.

The recovery time is cultivated through cardio/stamina workouts.

Maybe Scott will chime in and explain in motr detail.

Keep the questions coming_ this is how we all learn_ by 'slicing fine, and finer' _

[Van Canna]

Every shock you have ever had left a residue in your system. Every trauma you have ever had, has left an impression on this energy, and influences the way it moves in you or expresses itself through you. When you are afraid, you do something with your breath. When you are angry, you do something with your breath. If you receive a shock or a pain, you do something with your breath. If somebody says, “don’t cry!” you do something with your breath. To keep yourself from laughing, you do something with your breath. When you want to be quiet and still--when you try to hide--you do something with your breath.

[f.Channell]

But they have time to recover from that exhale, time that I don't have when we're working on taking the other guy out within 3 seconds.

That balls coming back a lot faster than 3 seconds.

My niece was a state amateur champion (least that's why my brother said she kept beating him ) and she could serve just under 100mph. The Williams hit a lot harder.

Each time they hit that ball, their not counting on it coming back.
Which is my goal when I strike.

That's where I see the similarity.

F.

[MikeK]

That balls coming back a lot faster than 3 seconds.

True Fred, but my training partner and I have done a lot in the time it takes that ball to go one round trip over that net. When I say 3 seconds we are fully engaged, full pressure, in very close quarters. Sometimes things are over in 1 or 2. I timed the video and I think the ball round tripped in 2 seconds. That's a lot of time to breath out and back in.

I'm going to have to have to see if I can notice how I'm breathing during the 3 seconds. I know it's not in and out on each strike and block as they are always executed, if not always simultaneously, then very close together. Stamina during these isn't the top priority as either you win or you've lost in those 3 seconds. Usually I'm on the lost side. But I think it may be very small exhales and maybe an inhale right before the finisher.

Now when practicing on the rolling log which now also teeters like a seesaw, my breathing is deep and controlled. Being relaxed helps with my awareness of what's happening and getting a feel for the movement. I also practice the deep breathing while on the orbitrack to keep my heart rate as low as possible. So different techniques for different situations.

[Mills75]

As Fred has said earlier in the thread I also noticed and it's knowledge of course to us all that even as he said on the Okikukai dvd that some use different methods of breathing. It seems Takamiyagi Sensei breathes out on the strike and others on the dvd do also but it seemed that most used the tsst method I felt at least. I just really prefer the tsst method for Sanchin and making Sanchin audible with the tsst method. I feel students learn to breath in the diaphragmatic way using this method. I feel keeping the breath on the strike keeps the core solid and strong and balanced as the author of the article said about having your breath in the abdomen.

I'm not a believer in magic or chi and that's not to offend anyone who does. I just see the proper breathing and correct posture as the magic and I'd just call it breath and not chi or anything like that for my personal view of it. What can I say really except that I really just personally feel stronger when I use this particular method of breathing. Not exhaling on the force but just after the force releasing the breath that I need to.

I breath naturally and believe in breathing naturally without it being audible in everything else but Sanchin. Sanchin is the only thing I do using the tsst method and making it audible. I of course still breath from the abdomen and not high in the chest on all other things but for Sanchin I like to use the tsst method.


I would never tell anyone that their breathing was not Uechi or anything of that nature but if I ever had students one day I'd hope they'd use the tsst method while perfoming Sanchin. I do believe there is something to the thought as Van said of doing something because that's the way it's been done and it's ok to differ on this point of course but I just feel there is something to be said for performing something a certain way that it's always been done in your lineage. I see it as keeping your breath and not losing it and keeping your core and center strong but as I said I don't call it chi or believe in the term chi.

Who knows fella's it's different ways for different folks and sometimes to be honest you can't explain it to the exact but you do it because it's what you believe in and how the people that you admire do it who got it from the people that they learned from and admire. I just like the tsst method for myself.

To be honest I fail to see why everyone gets in a huff not that anyone here has or does but why do people get all freaked out about a discussion on breathing lol..? Kumite and a few others get really wild sometimes too lol..I never understood why that is. I never put anyone down or tell anyone I'm god or that I'm completely right and they are dead wrong and I like it that way and when things can follow that civil dialogue as this discussion is going it's far more enjoyable to exchange thoughts even if nothing changes in the way people feel on either side in the end.

Go figure ya know Toshio Higa is 9th dan and breathes with the tsst method and Shigeru Takamiyagi is 9th dan and he seems to prefer and use the other method and I admire and respect both of them as great martial artists and masters so in the end it's all relative I suppose really lol...




Jeff

[Mills75]

Not really related so much to the breathing but we just had a godan as a guest who trained in Goju-ryu for many years and it was very interesting to watch him demonstrate and discuss our sister art on Okinawa. Goju is of course as you know half hard and soft also but it looks much harder as they perform their version but in fact when asked about the softness aspect in their sanchin he was very adament that their is indeed softness in the performance of their version. He was very quick and powerful and it was very interesting for me to get my first taste of our sister art of Goju-ryu.

I think without a doubt you can see the softness very evidently in our Sanchin but in their closed fisted version he took the time to show us and demonstrate where the softness was becoming tenser and tenser as his fist stretched out to extension. Different but alike in some respects also. Very interesting though for sure and he was a great guest to have and enjoy.

Jeff

[f.Channell]

It was explained to me that Goju is hard/soft while Uechi is half hard, half soft. So to some there's a difference in that.

I am quick to caution people about breathing methods because for over 20 years I practiced the Tsst stuff, and have been trying to lose it for the past 8 or 9.

I think I could draw the stupid chart my first sensei used to draw on the board.

So make sure it's really what you want because it's going to be tough to get out of the habit.

As far as the guy in the video goes, it's his conditioning and overall martial skill which impressed me, not his breathing method.

That is what would be the problem in a fight with him

And there can be multiple strikes combined with one exhale, the two sets of triple strikes in Seisan is a great place for that.

F.

[Stryke]

Good question, Mike. But, according to Scott Sonnon's studies,[recall Scott was the American Sambo Champion] the inhale takes care of itself after every exhale.

If you need to recover from breathing your doing something very wrong or your gassed

exsplosive exhaling has little to do with emptying all of your lungs , in fact the rule was to always maintain about 50 % of your air if I recall , though it`s an arbitrary number .

If you think making a noise is tiresome and need recovering , try holding a conversation with your average American , note how much noise they make and how they dont need to pause for a breath


sorry guys , seriously kidding was just too easy

I subscribe to an active exhalation and a passive inhalation for striking , it`s very natural IMHO , and I never empty my lungs .


it`s a tricky subject , show me is kinda required huh .

[Van Canna]

Mike

I'm going to have to have to see if I can notice how I'm breathing during the 3 seconds. I know it's not in and out on each strike and block as they are always executed, if not always simultaneously, then very close together.

Try this as per the article of Don Smith. This is how I breathe:

With a rapid series of strikes, there will either be a release of several short bursts of air, or a release of a continuous stream of air out of the lungs.

At the same time there will be air pressure maintained within the lungs, much like the tea kettle.

This turbo-charged type of breathing allows for incredible hand speed combinations that is unmatched by any other means.

The diaphragm and muscles in the body must tense properly to get the most benefit from internal breathing.

The best way to experience this is to exhale and form the mouth as to create a hiss.

There should be muscle tension low in the diaphragm and abdomen. This obtains maximum compression of the oxygen in the lungs and controls the amount of air that leaves the body.

[Van Canna]

Fred

So make sure it's really what you want because it's going to be tough to get out of the habit.

True. Many students cannot make the change to the exhale after the long indoctrination.

Above all, breathe anyway it feels comfortable and efficient to you.

Why is it that some Okinawan masters have changed their way of breathing to the exhale?

Remember that Kanbun Uechi exhaled with every move he made, in karate practice and in life. This was documented by Toyama sensei.

[Van Canna]

quote:
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Martial artists should be aware of their breathing at all times, especially when performing techniques. Always breathe out while striking with the technique. This helps add focus and power to each technique. Then, inhale when returning to the starting position. Often, when you concentrate on exhaling as you strike, inhaling follows naturally. Don’t breathe too rapidly or you’ll hyperventilate.

As you become more comfortable with these breathing techniques, you will notice improved endurance during your workouts.
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