Once again...

[2Green]

The latest Black Belt magazine front cover has a person punching, with the 3rd/4th knuckles making contact.
Last one I saw doing this was Tony Blauer, punching a HELMETED mock-up assailant the same way, in the same magazine.

I know that these photos are posed, but every book I've read on Karate technique emphatically states that this is a no-no.(Punching with the 3rd/4th knuckles.)

It is supposed to be the 1st/2nd knuckles only, the logic being (I've read) that they are supported by the bone structure/alignment, whereas the 3rd/4th are not -- and therefore are weaker to strike with, and might actually be more susceptible to damage.

Why, then, am I seeing this time and again, in situations which are actually posed for perfection, by top practitioners?

Do they know something which contradicts the traditional theory/anatomical reality, and are those who practice the 1st/2nd-knuckle concept just...plain...wrong?

I can't explain this. Can anyone volunteer?

~N~

[Bill Glasheen]

Neil

I'll check out the article in question when I get to the bookstore.

However...

You should know that Wing Chun - a cousin style to Uechi Ryu - does vertical fist punching that finishes with a radial deviation of the wrist. That creates a very interesting dynamic. Basically you touch with the first two knuckles as your hand comes forward, but then the radial wrist deviation subsequently drives those "forbidden" 3rd and 4th knuckles into the target.



Okinawan karate people punch differently. They do the initial contact with the first two knuckles, but instead do the follow-through with a forearm pronation.

Different strokes...

- Bill

[cdoucet]

Its actually called Sun punch (sub punch? I couldn't understand my sifu when I was studying Kung fu.) or something like that.


Bill explain it pretty much.. i'm just trying to give it a name.


Chris

[2Green]

I understand the vertical-fist concept, my comment/question addressed the AREA OF CONTACT::

1st/2nd knuckles,

vs.

3rd/4th knuckles.

Nothing to do with the orientation of the hand really. Contact can be made either way, either orientation.

My question was (ok, regardless of vertical/horizontal fist orientation, if you must...)...:
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Why are people at high levels of ability demonstrating a posed punch,( even to a helmeted opponent) using the 3rd/4th knuckles, when all classical theory/biology instructs us that only the 1st/2nd knuckles are actually supported by the skeletal structure?"
---------------------------------------------------------------

People we are looking up to, and holding in high esteem, appear to be employing the 3rd/4th - knuckle punch.
Not in the heat of the photographic moment, but in deliberately posed stances.

If all we've been told about the unsupported structure of the 3rd/4th knuckles is true, then how do these demonstration photos keep popping up?

Come to think of it, when was the last time you saw a posed punch using the 1st/2nd knuckles we are all told to use?

~N~

[Stryke]

Nothing to do with the orientation of the hand really. Contact can be made either way, either orientation.

Neil , the oreintation of the wrist is what changes the alignment of which nuckles .

If your wrist is turned in then nuckles 3-4 are now aligned structurally with a direct line of force strucutrally to the elbow .

it`s all about the hand oreintation .

If all we've been told about the unsupported structure of the 3rd/4th knuckles is true, then how do these demonstration photos keep popping up?

its unsupported if you dont know the valid orientation and d the appropriate conditioning , it`s no different to the newbie always folding there fist when they originally hit with the first nuckles with any power .

If youve been told the other nuckles cant be used , well youve been misinformed .

both methods have merit , in fact I`d suggest another variation , and thats wrist bent out striking vertically , and imapcting with the forst two nuckles .

IMHO the best alignment on contact(with the first two nuckles) is actually 45 degrees form what I`ve heard and form practice I agree .

but all in all I prefer a good Bushiken .

[Bill Glasheen]

Neil

This isn't a punch I personally prefer. But the Wing Chun people make it work.

As for alignment, support, and structure, well... It is what it is. Marcus touched on the important point w.r.t. the degee of pronation (or not) of the forearm vs. alignment. The bones involved are smaller, so present some risks. But some folks seem to make it work for them.

I'm personally more concerned about teaching people to punch to the head in self-defense. You're better off opening the hand and hitting with the palm, or doing more surgeon-like, touchy-feely attacks in close range with pointy techniques to vulnerable places on the head/neck. Chambering from a distance and firing to the head with ANY kind of fist is IMO not a very smart thing to do.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

This is a hand X-Ray. You'll note that there isn't a lot of variation in terms of bone thickness where it counts.



If you hit the target with a radial deviation of the wrist and your hand is properly clenched, those 4th and 5th metacarpals have the thickness of your whole hand, your wrist, and your forearm bones behind them. In other words, note how a tilt of the hand to the thumb side would make those last two bones on the right line up with the bigger radial bone in the forearm.


This is what you want to avoid - the classic boxer's fracture.



That happens when those two bones get caught with blunt force trauma without the proper alignment of the hand to back up those bones. In this particular case, a 13-year-old boy struck a cement wall in anger. As the saying goes, "Stupid is as stupid does."

- Bill

[RA Miller]

In Jack Dempsey's book on boxing, he advocated striking with the three lower knuckles. It spread the surface area and brings the fragile hand bones in line with the forearm bones more naturally and more evenly than forcing the two big knuckles into alignment. It was a new idea for me but seems to work remarkably well.

Rory

[AAAhmed46]

Neil

I'll check out the article in question when I get to the bookstore.

However...

You should know that Wing Chun - a cousin style to Uechi Ryu - does vertical fist punching that finishes with a radial deviation of the wrist. That creates a very interesting dynamic. Basically you touch with the first two knuckles as your hand comes forward, but then the radial wrist deviation subsequently drives those "forbidden" 3rd and 4th knuckles into the target.



Okinawan karate people punch differently. They do the initial contact with the first two knuckles, but instead do the follow-through with a forearm pronation.

Different strokes...

- Bill

Phil elmore?

couldn't you post someone elses picture?

[Bruise* Lee]

I wish I had a picture of this - but one punch variation I was taught was a hammer fist - the fist is thrust out like a WC vertical fist sort of - but the wrist inverts more, the elbow does not extend 100% and you strike with the fleshy hammer fist portion on the pinky side - its like a hammer fist jab to the face. Great for hitting the nose.

I like open handed strikes for striking the head - this is mostly theoretical as I have only been in about 4 "real" fights - none of which were against weapons. A good friend of mine, a real brawler and stunt man for several movies has on several occassions done this move where his hands are up - open, palms out - saying "hey I don't want any trouble" looking very defensive and meek - and then he palm strikes the person - his hand starts out only inches from their face so it is almost unblockable.

[Jake Steinmann]

In Jack Dempsey's book on boxing, he advocated striking with the three lower knuckles. It spread the surface area and brings the fragile hand bones in line with the forearm bones more naturally and more evenly than forcing the two big knuckles into alignment. It was a new idea for me but seems to work remarkably well.

Rory

In his PDR Manual, Tony Blauer advocates the same thing. He made a passing mention at the last PDR that the boxing that he's retained in his curriculum has be influenced by Dempsey. I wish I knew more, but I didn't really have a chance to pick his brain on the subject (though I am hoping to get my hands on some of Dempsey's material for the holidays...)

Neil,

I know the picture of Tony that you're talking about, and I think it's worth considering a couple of things.

1. The fact that the assailant is helmeted isn't really a factor there. It's a High Gear helmet, presumably worn to show off the gear, not to demonstrate that Tony Blauer can punch helmeted assailants and defeat them. Punching a guy wearing a High Gear helmet bare knuckle is probably safer than punching his head (though you might scrape your knuckles on the faceplace)!

2. Those pictures are deliberately posed, but it's not always the instructor who chooses the pose. I vaguely recall someone (it may have been Tony, it may have been someone else) talking about how the photographers were asking them to change their techniques for the photos. It was lots of little micro adjustments ("move your hand over here, so we can see your face") that lead to the technique looking screwed up.

Just some thoughts

[Glenn]

This is what you want to avoid - the classic boxer's fracture.

Been there, done that...the only broken bone I've had to date was breaking the 4th hand bone from a poor punch with hard contact. Had to have a pin put in temporarily to realign it while it healed, and the worst part of the whole event was the removal of the pin. It's bloody simple and quick to break a hand, just ask Mike Tyson. That's why I too prefer open hand techniques ever since breaking my hand.

[Willy]

If all we've been told about the unsupported structure of the 3rd/4th knuckles is true, then how do these demonstration photos keep popping up?

Good question Neil! Great thread very important subject matter for those who strike. Let us all empty our cup in this discussion.

I like Neil was taught early on that striking with the 1st and 2nd knuckles was the correct way.

With the passage of time and youthful aggression I’ve managed to break the bones in my hands more times than I can count. I know it’s more than seven and suspect less than 12. Now I never lost a fight because of a broken hand. Most times you don’t even feel the pain or swelling until things have been concluded. So a broken hand should not stop you from continuing to defend yourself. It will however bite you in the ass later.

Trying to use your hands while encased in fiberglass or plaster *****, been their done that. Also have said the hell with it and not had hand injuries treated and just let them heal o natural. Probably one of my more stupid moves, see a doctor when injured folks!

Today I’m paying the price for all the hand injuries. About six months ago I began to have problems making a fist. Turns out I have osteoarthritis in my left hand. Things are starting to get deformed. I can no longer make a tight fist with the hand, and I have lost some grip strength in my left hand.

Well no biggie because Uechi doesn’t us closed fists so I can still do Uechi, but I love to box and the only way I can hit with a closed left fist is to wrap a c cell into my hands so I have a fist pack when I close my hand. Otherwise I’m just going to bust the hand up punching with a loose fist.

The formula Neil and I learned works well when punching around chest shoulder high. Everything lines up; the line of force goes from the knuckles to the heel, a solid strike!

However let us punch some guy on the button who is 6’ 6” the knuckles no longer line up. One must actually bend the wrist to line up the big knuckles. Striking with a bent wrist is not good for you.

Now let us punch some giant dude with a straight wrist and a vertical fist. You will find that because your wrist is straight the last knuckle to get there is the big one. The puny knuckles are the first to arrive. But they are also perfectly aligned.

Try this:

1. Hold your karate punch on the wall the way you were taught. See how it aligns at your chest, shoulder and face level.

2. Hold your karate punch at 6’6” see how the 2nd set of knuckles hits the target at a less than desirer able angle. Now bend your wrist and see what you must do to connect with the big knuckles. Not very sound is it?

3. Now deliver a 6’6” strike with a straight wrist and vertical fist. Observe what part of the fist lands and note the straight wrist.

4. Now go down to the basement and try it on the sand bag at various heights.


It’s not about landing with the proper knuckles: it’s as Marcus and Bill advocate strike with a straight wrist. What lands on the target is a mute point as long as it is delivered in a structurally sound fashion.

One more note: Boxer fractures…the sheering off of the knuckles on the pinkie or ring finger. The lions share of this injury are caused by poorly thrown hooks/round punches. For some reason people who have not trained long hours to do this right get it really wrong. Most fractures occur with the landing of haymaker. Most injuries occur because the striker has landed with elbow up. Palm down and wrist bent. Landing on two unsupported knuckles.


A properly aligned hook is much like Sanchin. Elbows bent at 90 degrees and down arms turned inward to a 45 degree angle. Strike is thrown with rotation and very little arm movement. If thrown in this fashion all of the knuckles land full supported with a straight wrist.

Damage occurs when we do it wrong. There is no one way. We must adapt our methods to the target that is presented there is not one correct method.

If anything this is a damn good argument for open hand striking!

[AAAhmed46]

If all we've been told about the unsupported structure of the 3rd/4th knuckles is true, then how do these demonstration photos keep popping up?

Good question Neil! Great thread very important subject matter for those who strike. Let us all empty our cup in this discussion.

I like Neil was taught early on that striking with the 1st and 2nd knuckles was the correct way.

With the passage of time and youthful aggression I’ve managed to break the bones in my hands more times than I can count. I know it’s more than seven and suspect less than 12. Now I never lost a fight because of a broken hand. Most times you don’t even feel the pain or swelling until things have been concluded. So a broken hand should not stop you from continuing to defend yourself. It will however bite you in the ass later.

Trying to use your hands while encased in fiberglass or plaster *****, been their done that. Also have said the hell with it and not had hand injuries treated and just let them heal o natural. Probably one of my more stupid moves, see a doctor when injured folks!

Today I’m paying the price for all the hand injuries. About six months ago I began to have problems making a fist. Turns out I have osteoarthritis in my left hand. Things are starting to get deformed. I can no longer make a tight fist with the hand, and I have lost some grip strength in my left hand.

Well no biggie because Uechi doesn’t us closed fists so I can still do Uechi, but I love to box and the only way I can hit with a closed left fist is to wrap a c cell into my hands so I have a fist pack when I close my hand. Otherwise I’m just going to bust the hand up punching with a loose fist.

The formula Neil and I learned works well when punching around chest shoulder high. Everything lines up; the line of force goes from the knuckles to the heel, a solid strike!

However let us punch some guy on the button who is 6’ 6” the knuckles no longer line up. One must actually bend the wrist to line up the big knuckles. Striking with a bent wrist is not good for you.

Now let us punch some giant dude with a straight wrist and a vertical fist. You will find that because your wrist is straight the last knuckle to get there is the big one. The puny knuckles are the first to arrive. But they are also perfectly aligned.

Try this:

1. Hold your karate punch on the wall the way you were taught. See how it aligns at your chest, shoulder and face level.

2. Hold your karate punch at 6’6” see how the 2nd set of knuckles hits the target at a less than desirer able angle. Now bend your wrist and see what you must do to connect with the big knuckles. Not very sound is it?

3. Now deliver a 6’6” strike with a straight wrist and vertical fist. Observe what part of the fist lands and note the straight wrist.

4. Now go down to the basement and try it on the sand bag at various heights.


It’s not about landing with the proper knuckles: it’s as Marcus and Bill advocate strike with a straight wrist. What lands on the target is a mute point as long as it is delivered in a structurally sound fashion.

One more note: Boxer fractures…the sheering off of the knuckles on the pinkie or ring finger. The lions share of this injury are caused by poorly thrown hooks/round punches. For some reason people who have not trained long hours to do this right get it really wrong. Most fractures occur with the landing of haymaker. Most injuries occur because the striker has landed with elbow up. Palm down and wrist bent. Landing on two unsupported knuckles.


A properly aligned hook is much like Sanchin. Elbows bent at 90 degrees and down arms turned inward to a 45 degree angle. Strike is thrown with rotation and very little arm movement. If thrown in this fashion all of the knuckles land full supported with a straight wrist.

Damage occurs when we do it wrong. There is no one way. We must adapt our methods to the target that is presented there is not one correct method.

If anything this is a damn good argument for open hand striking!

So...the better your technique, the less likelyhood of breaking something then?

[Willy]

So...the better your technique, the less likelyhood of breaking something then?

Yes properly aligned strikes, it's about straight wrists and ground path. I'll show you when I'm up mid December.