Fingers always but is my Seichin

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CANDANeh
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Re: seichin

Post by CANDANeh »

Josann wrote:Could someone explain which moves are "crane on the rock", "grab and carry" and "hawk chases sparrow"? I've done this kata for 15 years an find it to be one of the most fun and thought provoking in the system. I have always heard terms like knee strike, fishtail block, crane block etc. so I am a little confused as to what you are describing
"crane on rock" is the knee strike which occurs before the first double groin strike
"grab and carry" is the double shoken turn
"hawk chases sparrow" is the sequence done often in cat stance. some visualize a leg break (unlikely) Arm break etc..I prefer visualizing controlling the head bringing it in for a knee to lower side of skull with BG arm being raised same time
Léo
Rick Wilson

Post by Rick Wilson »

Looking good Leo :D
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Mills75
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Post by Mills75 »

I love Seichin kata also and I asked to be grabbed in the double shokens when I first started learning this kata just to see how it would feel and when the person latched onto my sides and dug the knuckles in I yelped and saw that he could move me anywhere he pleased lol..I asked for this though because I wanted to experience the technique and actually feel it and I felt it alright lol and the person applying the technique wasn't even really trying to put much into it as he showed me.

Another thing about Seichin that it says on the Okikukai dvd that was just put out is that Seichin Kata introduces something very important to students and that's left leg pivoting.

Jeff
Jeff
James Watt
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Post by James Watt »

2Green wrote:Hey!

"Hard to learn, easy to forget", as a Shodan pointed out.
That's funny. My teacher said the opposite thing, but exactly the same. "Seichin: Easy to learn, hard to remember."



CANDANeh:

You're cat stance thingies are a little bit different than what I learned, but as I've read here while lurking over the last few months, apparently everybody's everything is different.

The way I learned it was as a leg break, and I actually used it successfully in a tournament a few months ago. Why do you think it's unlikely? (Unless I have misunderstood what leg break means.)
benzocaine
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Post by benzocaine »

I think my favorite feature of Candan's kata is his fluidity of movement.

There is no Ich-Ni-San-Chi........

It just moves....but yet still has a few pauses in it 8)
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Leo

My knowledge of the "missing" move in Seichin comes to me from Jim Thompson via Dana Sheets. Jim was on Okinawa for a decade training in Kanei Uechi's dojo when today's Okinawan masters were running around in diapers. He witnessed the development of modern Uechi Ryu (as did George Mattson) from Kanbun's original style and its second generation variants (Kanbun's students and their various interpretations of Kanbun's style).

Jim is a great guy to get to know and study from. But he won't give you any more information than you intentionally try to pry out of his deep brain. That's just his style. He saves "the good stuff" for the dedicated who want more than the bare minimum and work like hell to get it.

The "official word" (to me via the oral tradition) is that the move was removed because folks were hurting each other with it. The intent as I see it is to crank someone's neck. If you learn Rory Miller's principle of "stacking", you can understand how you can put a permanent hurt on a BG with this move. (Rory is a Sosuishitsu Ryu Jujitsu practitioner and trainer of prison guards.) But it isn't just for the neck. The move - as with most such moves - can work on multiple joints. The arm is another natural place to apply it. Raffi has taught me similar moves from his FMA. In any case, Dana tells me that shoulders were getting hurt because people were playing with the move in the dojo. How that happened isn't immediately obvious to me. It's more likely (to me) that elbows would be getting hyperextended. But... You know how those crazy Uechikas are... ;) So the word is that papa Uechi saw to it that this "Uechi toy" was taken away from the bad boys.

There are similar such moves and applications that have been lost in our tradition. A rather "final" bunkai move from Seisan was removed from the "official bunkai." This I can't quite figure out, because the one we did for tests had the nasty application watered down. But whatever... They got rid of it. If you want to know what that move was, see the movie Kickboxer. Tong Po (played by Tong Po) does it on Eric Sloane (played by Dennis Alexio). Eric is permanently crippled by it, and the act is avenged by his brother (played by Jean-Claude Van Damme).

- Bill
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CANDANeh
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Pretty as a Venus Fly Trap

Post by CANDANeh »

benzocaine wrote:I think my favorite feature of Candan's kata is his fluidity of movement.

There is no Ich-Ni-San-Chi........

It just moves....but yet still has a few pauses in it 8)
Thank you for your kind words. My early Uechi was soooo... rigid and I`m working at that “half hard half soft” , I don`t feel “fluid” but your observation is a welcomed boost
James Watt wrote:
2Green wrote:Hey!

"Hard to learn, easy to forget", as a Shodan pointed out.
That's funny. My teacher said the opposite thing, but exactly the same. "Seichin: Easy to learn, hard to remember."



CANDANeh:

You're cat stance thingies are a little bit different than what I learned, but as I've read here while lurking over the last few months, apparently everybody's everything is different.

The way I learned it was as a leg break, and I actually used it successfully in a tournament a few months ago. Why do you think it's unlikely? (Unless I have misunderstood what leg break means.)
Hi James
Tokyo...You live close to the source and thanks for your input.
I “think”(thought) the leg break in “Hawk chases Sparrow” is unlikely because a person with a leg caught in that trap will not allow it to be broken in that manner. However, proof it can be done is that you used successfully in tournament. Therefore I thought wrong. Would not just capturing the leg have been enough in a tournament setting? Years ago I would have (if any took place in NS) competed in matches allowing legs to be broken but today must support a family and gotten a might softer...Nose, ribs and toes were fractured a few time however. Was the force required to break the leg less or greater than you expected?
The "official word" (to me via the oral tradition) is that the move was removed because folks were hurting each other with it. The intent as I see it is to crank someone's neck.
Hate it when the good stuff is removed ...So many get hurt attempting to re invent what we know was there.
Léo
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Re: Pretty as a Venus Fly Trap

Post by James Watt »

CANDANeh wrote:
Hi James
Tokyo...You live close to the source and thanks for your input.
I “think”(thought) the leg break in “Hawk chases Sparrow” is unlikely because a person with a leg caught in that trap will not allow it to be broken in that manner. However, proof it can be done is that you used successfully in tournament. Therefore I thought wrong. Would not just capturing the leg have been enough in a tournament setting? Years ago I would have (if any took place in NS) competed in matches allowing legs to be broken but today must support a family and gotten a might softer...Nose, ribs and toes were fractured a few time however. Was the force required to break the leg less or greater than you expected?
I should be more clear I think. When I say break, I mean that I could break the attack.

The exact situation was that my opponent shot a right jab at my head and I found myself using a right hand wauke to block it because I was turned slightly to the left after finishing a poor kick. As soon as my hand touched his on the way to push it to my right, his right leg came up in a roundhouse kick and I lifted my left leg to block that.

I found myself in a position where my right hand was controlling his, and his right leg was hitting my my cocked left leg, and I didn't even have to think about it. My right hand continued the block sweep, my left hand came down to throw his right leg out, and then I kicked him in the stomach and he fell, giving me the point.

I don't think it's something I could have planned, and it wasn't until after when my Sensei told me what I'd done that I even noticed it.

(I still lost the match miserably. The guy could punch faster than a boxer. Luckily, we have the same teacher, even though we're at different schools, so he pulled all of his head shots.)
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

For the record... I never, ever have worried about "hawk chases sparrow" being a leg break. I suppose it's possible, but... I have more applications for that move than any other move in the system (save perhaps the fundamental LCD elements of Sanchin). And not one of them is a leg break.

Each one of the elements can be used for kicking defenses. The two hand movements can be used to catch a kick (separately), and the leg can be used to deflect one in much the same way that one does arm rubbing.

The paired arm movements can be used in any number of throws. I can't tell you how many times I've seen the mechanics of this move in both aikido and jujitsu. It also can be found in weapon kata - particularly with the bo.

If you understand that kata sometimes do movements with intra-body timing that is different from the many applications, then you can go even further. For example...
  • Catch a kick with harai sukui uke (upwards scooping block). Do left scoop on right leg, or right scoop on left.
  • Exchange the leg from one arm to the next using the finishing part of "hawk chases sparrow." While doing so, step forward. If you move and do the lower sweep just right, you now are on their back.
  • Now while you are grabbing the shoulders, use your foot to tap the back crease of one of their knees. That's your leg part. Their center is gone, and you can now do a lateral vascular neck restraint (a.k.a. blood choke) from behind. Out goes the lights!
I personally am not fond of the Uechi kata interpretations that just whack somebody only to piss them off. I look for sequences designed to take them out. This is a classic. It can be done "smooth as glass" if you practice it enough.

And along those lines...
Josann wrote:
Could someone explain which moves are "crane on the rock", "grab and carry" and "hawk chases sparrow"? I've done this kata for 15 years an find it to be one of the most fun and thought provoking in the system. I have always heard terms like knee strike, fishtail block, crane block etc. so I am a little confused as to what you are describing
I intentionally use nonspecific, colorful, visually descriptive names to describe kata techniques. In my view, it is a BIG, BIG mistake calling a kata move a strike or a block or a thrust. Our circles are just circles - period. Sometimes they are blocks. Sometimes they are attacks. Sometimes they are traps. Sometimes they are throws. Etc, etc.

I never tire of finding new ways to use the old basic patterns of human movement. This IMO is the way to approach martial arts. It's a bit like RISC - Reduced Instruction Set Computing. Learn just a few fundamental elements of movement, and learn them well. Then learn to do lots and lots of things with just these few well-learned patterns. That way it will be available to you when you need it most - under pressure when your britches are soiled and you are having a very bad day.

- Bill
Josann
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seichin

Post by Josann »

Bill:
Great point on the names of moves. Since I have been viewing Rick Wilson's videos (wilsonkarate.com) and his interpretations of the kata as well as doing some cross training I have come to appreciate the complexities and almost infinite uses of many of the kata's moves. If we don't get caught up in terms like "block" and "strike" etc we can begin to grasp the true effectiveness of the style and the way that it lends itself to sweeps, locks, grabs and other very practical moves.

The move you describe where the back of the knee is taken out is done very well done by Master Shinjo on you tube (uechi ryu) and the rear choke by another okinawan under the title okinawa conditioning.
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CANDANeh
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Post by CANDANeh »

Bill Glasheen wrote: I intentionally use nonspecific, colorful, visually descriptive names to describe kata techniques. In my view, it is a BIG, BIG mistake calling a kata move a strike or a block or a thrust. Our circles are just circles - period. Sometimes they are blocks. Sometimes they are attacks. Sometimes they are traps. Sometimes they are throws. Etc, etc.
Great for teaching "visual people" as well :)

"Dragon looking down a well" or " Dragon diving from the clouds" The 3 shokens in Seisan :wink:
I should be more clear I think. When I say break, I mean that I could break the attack.

Darn English language...I visualized you as one crazy dude in the ring. However, to spar one must be a least a little insane which is a good thing. Nice move you did to get that point and being unplanned all the better.
Léo
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