Uechi Sanchin a Sai Kata?

[John Giacoletti]

A karateka, Nathan Johnson, asserts that Uechi Sanchin as well as a small core group of Okinawan karate forms were originally designed to teach weapon skills. My bold for emphasis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsXj8NJHSxg

On the side-bar, the assertion may be heard and seen in "The Great Karate Myth."

See also "Ko-do Ryu Kobudo Sanchin" on the same sidebar where three individuals perform sanchin, two with sai and one open-handed.

Johnson's findings are interesting speculations even if not proven. Seisan particulary the jump and salute are definately sai movements. And the double groin strikes with sai ... ouch

[Glenn]

I don't agree with everything Nathan has come up with, but he is definitely thinking outside the box and his book Barefoot Zen made an interesting read.
Barefoot Zen:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bookse ... 1421&itm=1
Great Karate Myth:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bookse ... 0933&itm=4

[AAAhmed46]

If you look at alot of chinese systems, all you have to do is put weapons in the hands of an empty hand form and modify it a bit, you got a weapsons kata, the principles cross over.

So is it a sai kata? It can be i guess.

[Bill Glasheen]

What-ever....

You want to know what I think? Nathan is a clever marketer of some interesting ideas.

There is absolutely nothing "revolutionary" about parallels between empty hand and weapon forms. Way back in the Shaolin Temple, weapons were taught at the same time with empty hand technique. A principles-based approach demands it. It's the most parsimonious way to teach the full force continuum. And parsimony is key when it comes to retrieving information when under the survival stress respose or being able to take advantage of "weapons of opportunity."

Johnson's findings are interesting speculations even if not proven. Seisan particulary the jump and salute are definately sai movements. And the double groin strikes with sai ... ouch

I hear you. However the "salute" (crane on a rock) posture is not a sai move per se. I know you know that; I'm just trying to clarify what you wrote. The move can be executed with tonfa. The move can be executed with sword and shield. It can be executed with double stick, double knife, knife and stick, etc. It is a posture that can be used in myriad ways.

I'm a big fan of finding these parallels. I choose to teach Tsukenshitahaku no sai because I can express Sanchin AND Seisan principles throughout. The same is true for Hamahiga no tonfa. And Victor showed us a sword and shield kata on YouTube that I want to learn for the same reason.

Truth be told, if it was me I'd do that Sanchin/sai kata differently. Rather than have extended sai as the "natural" posture, I'd do the whole kata with contracted sai. If I showed you some applications, you'd probably see why. Everything else would work just fine.

I do find the morote tsuki strikes to be... curious.

Whatever... There can be several different ways to do this. The important thing is we bring the principles of a foundation kata into another place on the force continuum.

- Bill

[Kuma-de]

I found the display lacking in the true understanding of the weapon. In this case the sai, which is usually used in defense against a katana or wakazashi.

It was commonly used by Okinawan policeman vs. wayward drunken samurai.

Here he does not use the weapon in its original purpose. The sai is usually very flowing weapon. Here is a good example of a decent job of Chatan Yara no Sai:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-x3RUtGucg

[Bill Glasheen]

That kata (Chatan Yara no sai) is very, very similar to Tsukenshitahaku no sai. See this link. It differs in only subtle ways in the body, and departs somewhat in the next-to-last sequence.

Thanks for that link, by the way!

I agree that the sai should flow. I do however understand how a simple foundation of proper sai handling and body postures can help in teaching advanced forms. Comparing what Nathan is doing here to Chatan Yara no sai or Tsukenshitahaku no sai would be like comparing Uechi Sanchin to Uechi Seisan or Sanseiryu. Not everyone would see the raison d'etre on first blush.

The utility comes in, Jim, when teaching these advanced forms. I'm constantly reminding students about basic postures when I teach. I point to these basic postures so that the student can go back and polish the details up on their own - knowing that their form ***** but the sequence is all there.

I don't know that I'm going to go out of my way to teach a similar "Sanchin no sai" in my dojo. Empty hand Sanchin alone may do the trick. But it might make a good class exercise (modified whatever way I want to for the day) to drill technique.

- Bill

[jorvik]

Well we have all seen Nathan before.originally he was saying that everything was pushing hands, now everything is weapons..I don't believe either. The chineses styles that I have practised all had very different weapons forms from their open hand forms, but how could it be otherwise ............you must use the strength of the weapon, it's natural strength. When you cut with the sword you let the sword do the cutting, you don't chop, you let the sword operate the way it should, and that applies to all weapons. If Uechi-ryu had weapons katas that would be fine, but it doesn't and I don't believe that you can change the open hand forms into weapons katas...not proper serious katas, with real knowledge in them.that's why folks like Master Gushi do kobudo as well.

[Dale Houser]

I don't claim to know much about this but last weekend Gushi Sensei talked about Sanchin and how it was originally taught by Uechi Kanbun and he did not mention weapons at all.

He went over the practical applications of each Sanchin move and they were/are mostly for balance ("half-moon step" was used to help keep balance on boats); and defence - initial nukite strike was originally taught to strike/grab/pull pelvic area; final strike taught to grab down there again *and* to damage eyes/nose/mouth etc. - wherever you could do quick damage to stun your opponent. This would give you time to either run away or prepare for some other move.

When Uechi-ryu was being taught to more women and children it was modified just a little (initial nukite stike now said to strike the "guts", final strike is a big "push/grab") because it was, (and I quote) "nasty".

There are elements of Sanchin and other katas in the Kobudo pre-arranged movements he showed us but I don't know which came first. And didn't think to ask.

So there you go, FWIW.

[mhosea]

Truth be told, if it was me I'd do that Sanchin/sai kata differently. Rather than have extended sai as the "natural" posture, I'd do the whole kata with contracted sai.

I tried it once and came to the same conclusion.

[cxt]

"Can" you do "some" kata with a sai??

Yes, but that is a long way from the idea that the kata WERE DESIGNED to be used as such.

I "can" pull stumps up with my car---that does not mean my car was designed as a "stump pulling device."

Part of the problem IMO with the assertions, is that are made with little practical training (as far as I know) in the systems in which claims are being made of what a given kata is "for."

In previous discussion on this topic, exactly how much training in goju or uechi the author has had, with whom and for how long have not been forthcoming.

Another problem with the logic is that it utterly ignores a pretty widespread and well known body of Okinawan kobudo.
Why bother to make a kata do double duty--when there is guy across the street that is already teaching a living weapons tradition in context with other weapons???

Why not just train there?

Which is exactly what many okinawans DID.

No matter what answer a person can come up with here---a valid explanation for why it was seemingly ignored is strikeingly missing from the posit.

Like I said "can" it be done that way?-Sure.

"Can" you develop some skills like that?--Why not.

Was the kata designed to fuction like that?--Probably not.

Are there "better" ways to train such skills and still keep to the classcial okinawan methods?---Absolutely.

[gmattson]

During my tour of duty on Okinawa, I rented a small house in Kadena Village, where I stayed whenever off duty. (This was a common practice at the time, although not approved by the military).

The house shared a small courtyard with a second house. (the owner of the house I rented).

The landlord, an old man of at least 80 years old, had a set of sai that had their blades cut off. (According to Tomoyose, when the Japanese confiscated all weapons, many Okinawans cut the shafts off their sai, so they could keep them.)

The old man would perform a Uechi sanchin, using the sai in a very similar way to the first clip.... except the way the sai is held and the point during the kata when the "flipping" techniques were done.

Tomoyose, when asked about this, stated that he did not know who the old man was. He did say that our kata can be performed with weapons.

It was because of this experience that I asked Tomoyose if he would help me get a set of sai. (That was before the sai or any other martial art supplies could be easily obtained)

[CANDANeh]

Sai
Must have been a good set.
Not a commercial production line pair that are dime a dozen.

[Kuma-de]

Sai
Must have been a good set.
Not a commercial production line pair that are dime a dozen.

::sigh:: If only you can get the good hand made set like the one's of old.

There are a few manufacturers of good iron sai available. Not the cheap chrome ones that you can buy everywhere.

[John Giacoletti]

For just under $300.00 plus shipping you can get a custom set of hand made sai:

http://www.weaponsconnection.com

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[Bill Glasheen]

I had some physics geeks who had access to numerous ordering houses. Way back then (a few decades back) they had a set of stainless steel sai ordered for me. They came without hand wrapping. I went down to a racquetball specialist and had him do a custom leather wrap for the handles.

They are by far my favorite pair of sai. You can do weapon kumite with these all day long, and never ding them. They have substance. And I would hate to be on the receiving end when I give a hip whip to my sai flip.

Well worth the price!!!

- Bill