Kotikitae question

[Stryke]

Originally On Ricks forum , but I thought I`d ask here too

I`ve often heard that the original material/kata never included the closed fist .

and Ive heard that the big three and kotikitae was the material Kanbun brought back from China


So why is kotikitae done with a closed fist , has it always been done witha closed fist , and if so why the comments on no fists In uechi ?

[MikeK]

I figured the closed fist flexes the arm muscles which protects the arms.

[M J Brelsford]

Closed fist is used by the one being struck in order to flex the forearm muscles. The person doing the striking can use either the open hand or closed fist. Never heard it HAD to be a fist, I have always done both ways.

I feel the shuto is more effective myself, but you have to work it.

Mark

[Stryke]

thanks guys , I was wondering why the attack had closed fists and wether this is standard , makes sense

[Bill Glasheen]

Actually I understand your question, Marcus. It's a good one.

To be precise, the uraken in the original three kata is a "proper fist." So Kanbun and his associates would have considered a seiken to be nothing unusual.

George gets pretty worked up about the "attack" in kotekitae being a genuine one and the person responding treating it like an attack. Personally I just see "it" as someone putting the arm out so you can work it over. Both paradigms are worthy of consideration.

Regardless of what anyone considers "official" on this exercise, we have a number of variations I do. One involves a 5 count.

• parry
• inside chudan uchi
• inside circle-like hit w/o follow-through
• circle using body
• overhand hit

One involves a 3 (or maybe 4) count

• Chudan uchi/uke
• Circle hit with follow-through
• Overhand hit

And a final one involves a 2 count

• Inside chudan "corkscrew" done like a parry with immediate circle follow-through
• overhand hit

I make people count these variations with equal time intervals as if counting music.

My point (and Mark's as well to some extent) is that there's nothing sacred about the exercise. You're just conditioning the arms. There are a lot of ways to play with the exercise, and we shouldn't take it as religion other than to maintain some kind of "vanilla" version so we can go from dojo to dojo and play.

- Bill

[Stryke]

Thanks Bill , agree things should be mixed up .

good stuff

[SAN-DAI-RYU]

http://www.traditionaluechi-ryu.com/kitae.html

[Bill Glasheen]

Muy agradable, Carlos. Gracias mucho.

- Bill

[Stryke]

Excellent

thanks !!!

[Bill Glasheen]

If I was to make such a nice set of videos and find a place to post them, I would add one to this series.

I personally feel that a very efficient way to condition the boney areas of both the shins and the forearms is with a rolling pin. I came up with this idea years ago when I heard Thai boxers were rolling Coke bottles on their shins to conditiuon them.

For you young folk out there, Thai boxing = Muay Thai. And a coke bottle is a cylindrical piece of glass shaped something like today's modern 20 oz (half liter) beverage in a plastic container.

I introduced the rolling pin to my students decades back. Then I heard through Mark Brelsford that the Okinawans were using something fairly similar, only made of a more substantive material like stone. IMO, you don't need anything fancy. Go to your local cooking store, buy a wooden rolling pin, and throw it in you gym bag. That's everything you need.

A gentleman from another Okinawan branch once came over to The States and preached against this, saying something like it was popping capillaries. I've done research in microcirculation, and can tell you that such a scenario can't happen. It's safe and effective if you use common sense.

Basically you roll either the shin bone (tibia), the boney part of the inside forearm (radius), or the boney part of the outside forearm (ulna) with enough pressure to feel mild discomfort. You want "good pain" and not "bad pain." If you've been in this business long enough, you'll know the difference. One "heads up" on this - you might get a buzz from your radial rolling. That's you squeezing the radial nerve against the radius. Just take note, use common sense (don't damage the nerve), and then remember that you can do that to the bad guy. You'll also note another pressure point in the middle of the shin, and one on the boney top of the foot. Again - take your time, and remember that the bad guy has the same anatomy.

This technique has long-term benefit. But for some reason I can't quite explain, it has a short-term benefit as well. Other than triggering a release of endorphins which make contact not hurt so much, it does something to the microcirculation to make it so you don't bruise as easily on that day. The body evidently must be smarter than we know, and seems to respond to such pressure by shutting flow down to the vessels that otherwise might get damaged. That's my guess anyhow.

I do the rolling as a warmup to the pounding in the exact same way that you would do arm rubbing before arm pounding. It works best in that order.

- Bill

[TSDguy]

I've noticed that too. It intuitvely makes sense that the body would get the warning to protect itself, but I couln't explain how...

[Jake Steinmann]

If I was to make such a nice set of videos and find a place to post them, I would add one to this series.

I personally feel that a very efficient way to condition the boney areas of both the shins and the forearms is with a rolling pin. I came up with this idea years ago when I heard Thai boxers were rolling Coke bottles on their shins to conditiuon them.

For you young folk out there, Thai boxing = Muay Thai. And a coke bottle is a cylindrical piece of glass shaped something like today's modern 20 oz (half liter) beverage in a plastic container.

For the record, without judging whether the practice is good or bad.

Thai boxers do not do this. Thai boxers condition their shins by kicking bags, pads, and sometimes each other. That's it.

Again, this is not to speak to the efficacy of doing the whole "rolling pin" thing, but just a note that it's not something done by most Muay Thai folks.

[Bill Glasheen]

I'm not making it up, Jake.

My rolling pin idea wasn't spontaneous generation. I'm not that smart; I wish I was. In the words of Milton Berle, "I know a good joke when I steal it."

I took an idea I got from another group, and found a better way to execute it. I've been in martial arts since 1972. I don't know how old you are, but I suspect I may have a year or two on you. I got the idea long, long ago from reading about Thai boxers and their training methods. At the time, they were kicking bootie in the ring, and a number of us wanted to investigate their "secret sauce." We all knew they had killer roundhouse kicks that seemed indifferent to blocks in the way Yonamine's shins are inhuman. This happened to be one idea that I gleaned from my research.

The practice may not have been that prevalent, but someone obviously was doing it.

Go look in many older Okinawan dojos, and you'll see the same brand of creative genius. Back in the day, you could find dojos in Okinawa which were using car parts to do routine weight lifting. Nowadays most of them are doing better, and can afford a half decent weight set.

They still however use a used tire to train their sokusens (toe kicks).

- Bill

[Diremind]

I've been doing the rolling pin thing for a while now and have definitely felt the tingling in the shin. Always wondered what that was.

Also had a question. The inside of the shin bone right above the ankle bone is pretty sensitive (feels bruised). I thought it was just a bruise so I stopped rolling on it and tried not to let anyone make contact with it (kumite or dan kumite). However, that was like 9 months ago. I'm fairly certain it would have healed by now. I was wondering if anybody might have any ideas. I think it might be a stress fracture and am going to go get it x-rayed, but even if it was a fracture, I thought it would have healed in 9 months.

[Bill Glasheen]

That's a sensitive area with little soft tissue protecting it.

You may have injured it, and didn't give it a chance to heal. That happens in karate. I had a spot on my shin where I ripped some skin off when riding my motorcycle and avoiding a dangerous situation. I stupidly stuck my leg out to keep my bike from hitting a brick ledge. Instead, the brick just neatly ripped the skin off my shin - right through the denim.

Oops!!!

I still have an interesting mark on my shin from that. Fortunately I don't make a career as a beauty model. But I do recall the wound taking years to heal properly because the constant contact in karate never gave it a chance.

Obviously a visit to the doctor is in order whenever things don't heal or pain doesn't go away. Good luck.

You're probably fine, but definitely let the MD tell you that. There are all kinds of maladies out there which could directly or indirectly elicit the exact same symptoms. A good doctor will eliminate those possibilities for you, and send you on your way.

- Bill