The details aren't all that different, Dr. Ian. Someone threatens to commit suicide. Those involved provide supplemental information which makes the apparent trend evident. The person is held, and beneficial therapy commences.
You keep trying to find reasons why the patient could be released. I've had direct experience where patients were held until issues were dealt with. And it really didn't seem that difficult to do - particularly where everyone had the patients' interests in mind.
The situations BTW were pretty close to identical. It didn't take that much work to make student health records available to the physician. It's hard for me to believe the process is that much more difficult in Blacksburg. I'd like to think I made a difference, but I don't give myself that much credit.
Sorry, Ian. I'll never sleep soundly on this one - even though I wasn't one of the people involved. You don't know for sure, nor do I. But to me, something doesn't quite seem right.
- Bill
Shooting at Virginia Tech!
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Bill Glasheen
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Rising Star
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Police still have many unanswered questions
The investigators can find no connection between Cho and any of his victims, nor can they explain why he chose the two buildings in which he did the killings. In light of this, and given his other maticulous planning, I'm beginning to think he purposefully chose victims/locations who did not have any connection with him to cause unanswerable questions during the subsequent investigation.
The investigators can find no connection between Cho and any of his victims, nor can they explain why he chose the two buildings in which he did the killings. In light of this, and given his other maticulous planning, I'm beginning to think he purposefully chose victims/locations who did not have any connection with him to cause unanswerable questions during the subsequent investigation.
Glenn
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Bill Glasheen
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Glenn
I think the Virginia Tech police are being extremely cautious about jumping to conclusions too quickly. There's much evidence they have to go through.
However to your point... You might go back to the early part of this thread and notice what I wrote.
Then go to the Bubishi and look at Methods of Escape.
I was very alarmed at the pattern right from the get-go, Glenn. It was insidious. It quite possibly demonstrates an intentional feint to make maximum carnage possible in the engineering building.
It also reminded me a bit of the North Carolina abortion clinic (and Atlanta Olympics) bomber who planted two bombs. The second was designed to go off right when the rescue workers were busy helping those injured by the first.
It's sick and clever all at the same time.
There's a bit of narcissism involved with Cho. If you'll look at the pictures he released, he had this fantasy of himself as some sort of counter culture warrior of doom. One pose shows him with both guns drawn, charging forward with his 'I'm gonna get you, sucka' face. Another one shows him posed with gloves on and fists clenced as if posing for the cover of Black Belt.
Quite frankly the pictures made me laugh. Again... all I could think of was small penis syndrome.
- Bill
I think the Virginia Tech police are being extremely cautious about jumping to conclusions too quickly. There's much evidence they have to go through.
However to your point... You might go back to the early part of this thread and notice what I wrote.
Bill Glasheen wrote:
There were two separate incidents. The shootings/killing(s) started in a dorm. When the police were investigating at location 1, the shootings resumed in an academic building.
Then go to the Bubishi and look at Methods of Escape.
Victor wrote:
1. If you want to attack east, first strike west.
I was very alarmed at the pattern right from the get-go, Glenn. It was insidious. It quite possibly demonstrates an intentional feint to make maximum carnage possible in the engineering building.
It also reminded me a bit of the North Carolina abortion clinic (and Atlanta Olympics) bomber who planted two bombs. The second was designed to go off right when the rescue workers were busy helping those injured by the first.
It's sick and clever all at the same time.
There's a bit of narcissism involved with Cho. If you'll look at the pictures he released, he had this fantasy of himself as some sort of counter culture warrior of doom. One pose shows him with both guns drawn, charging forward with his 'I'm gonna get you, sucka' face. Another one shows him posed with gloves on and fists clenced as if posing for the cover of Black Belt.
Quite frankly the pictures made me laugh. Again... all I could think of was small penis syndrome.
- Bill
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Victor Smith
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Bill,
I'm afraid Cho's cunning might be out of a terrorist handbook, or perhaps the art of war.
Not just if you want to attack east, first strike west, but even to chaining the building door shut as the prelude to the 2nd attack.
The entire event seems to appear more structured planning as we look at it.
Was it happenstance that the defesnsive response of the police didn't include multiple strikes?
I'm afraid Cho's cunning might be out of a terrorist handbook, or perhaps the art of war.
Not just if you want to attack east, first strike west, but even to chaining the building door shut as the prelude to the 2nd attack.
The entire event seems to appear more structured planning as we look at it.
Was it happenstance that the defesnsive response of the police didn't include multiple strikes?
Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu
bushi no te isshinryu
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Bill Glasheen
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The police were fooled, Victor, as was the administration which was discussing the whole thing just as the second shootings commenced. It looked like a domestic dispute, and "the suspect" fled the scene.
They even thought they had the person who did it detained.
They goofed. In my view it was an honest albeit terrible mistake.
- Bill
They even thought they had the person who did it detained.
They goofed. In my view it was an honest albeit terrible mistake.
- Bill
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Victor Smith
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Bill,
I agree with you. When someone moves to a new level of attack, and there aren't any indications that has happened, the normal response always ends up inadequate.
My thought is was this within standard terrorist studies (whatever they are)?
The multiple attacks on 911.
I just say the Saudi's rounded up abour 172 'terrorists' training for oil field attacks (including flight training).
Another article on Drudge this morning is asking why the terrorists haven't launched multiple strikes against shopping centers yet.
I just see a theme of muliple events that are structured not to just accomplish an event but to lead to terror, the fear of others doing more.
Cho's actions seem somewhat similar in action, not that the events are linked.
I think I'm going to have a look at the Art of War this weekend.
I agree with you. When someone moves to a new level of attack, and there aren't any indications that has happened, the normal response always ends up inadequate.
My thought is was this within standard terrorist studies (whatever they are)?
The multiple attacks on 911.
I just say the Saudi's rounded up abour 172 'terrorists' training for oil field attacks (including flight training).
Another article on Drudge this morning is asking why the terrorists haven't launched multiple strikes against shopping centers yet.
I just see a theme of muliple events that are structured not to just accomplish an event but to lead to terror, the fear of others doing more.
Cho's actions seem somewhat similar in action, not that the events are linked.
I think I'm going to have a look at the Art of War this weekend.
Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu
bushi no te isshinryu
"You keep trying to find reasons why the patient could be released. I've had direct experience where patients were held until issues were dealt with. And it really didn't seem that difficult to do - particularly where everyone had the patients' interests in mind."
You keep completely missing the point, so I'll stop repeating myself after one last try. No, Bill, again, I am not trying to find reasons why he was released; I am trying to educate you as to the legal reality here, whether you like it or not, whether you need to point a finger or not, that psychiatrists have to look for a reason to hold someone, and Cho did not have one, which is presumably why you pointedly refuse over and over to indicate how you would have held him or any specifics as to how you would have helped him.
Your purposefully vague anecdotes about how someone in a situation got some kind of help that was easy are irrelevant. You don't know you prevented anything. They may have gotten better because they were inclined to accept help, and may well have been seeking it with their presenting complaint (unlike Cho?). The records may have gotten there because they released them or the time of day; Cho may have refused to release them or they may have been there in the middle of the night when student health was closed; in any case, they did not contain information justifying suspension of Cho's rights. It is the worst kind of logic to proceed from 2 case reports of which you have limited details to an assumption that Cho's outburst could have been avoided, the kind of logic you railed against when it led to BMT for breast cancer or aided John Edwards in a cerebral palsy case. Here, it suits your point of you, so you don't mind.
"But to me, something doesn't quite seem right."
Sure! Agreed! Super! Now the right thing to do is to await more information and postulate, but withhold judgement, as we learned in the Duke nonrape case. But you would rather post inflammatory accusations and pictures implicating one doctor constrained by the law and the limitations of psych evals, on a fragment of information no less, than stick to your usually reliable logic and levelheadedness.
Why, I have no idea, but if you held Bush to this standard your views on the Iraq war debacle would take a 180.
I can say that Cho's apparent strategy of attack and cleverness are hints to his rationality, which suggests that he ought to have been seeing his psychiatrist in prison. Why focus on the "help" this killer needed to the exclusion of his own role?
You keep completely missing the point, so I'll stop repeating myself after one last try. No, Bill, again, I am not trying to find reasons why he was released; I am trying to educate you as to the legal reality here, whether you like it or not, whether you need to point a finger or not, that psychiatrists have to look for a reason to hold someone, and Cho did not have one, which is presumably why you pointedly refuse over and over to indicate how you would have held him or any specifics as to how you would have helped him.
Your purposefully vague anecdotes about how someone in a situation got some kind of help that was easy are irrelevant. You don't know you prevented anything. They may have gotten better because they were inclined to accept help, and may well have been seeking it with their presenting complaint (unlike Cho?). The records may have gotten there because they released them or the time of day; Cho may have refused to release them or they may have been there in the middle of the night when student health was closed; in any case, they did not contain information justifying suspension of Cho's rights. It is the worst kind of logic to proceed from 2 case reports of which you have limited details to an assumption that Cho's outburst could have been avoided, the kind of logic you railed against when it led to BMT for breast cancer or aided John Edwards in a cerebral palsy case. Here, it suits your point of you, so you don't mind.
"But to me, something doesn't quite seem right."
Sure! Agreed! Super! Now the right thing to do is to await more information and postulate, but withhold judgement, as we learned in the Duke nonrape case. But you would rather post inflammatory accusations and pictures implicating one doctor constrained by the law and the limitations of psych evals, on a fragment of information no less, than stick to your usually reliable logic and levelheadedness.
Why, I have no idea, but if you held Bush to this standard your views on the Iraq war debacle would take a 180.
I can say that Cho's apparent strategy of attack and cleverness are hints to his rationality, which suggests that he ought to have been seeing his psychiatrist in prison. Why focus on the "help" this killer needed to the exclusion of his own role?
--Ian
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Bill Glasheen
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Definitely thorough planning on his part, and it would appear a good grasp of tactical issues.
I'm curious as to how he managed to chain 3 doors in Norris Hall prior to the shooting spree there, classroom buildings are never that empty. I'm assuming anyone who approached him was shot at, or at least warned off with a gun, but I have not seen any details about this. For example the leading cerebral palsy researcher who was killed does not appear to have been part of any of the classrooms attacked, so I speculate that most likely he was killed in a hallway, possibly while a door was being chained.
I'm curious as to how he managed to chain 3 doors in Norris Hall prior to the shooting spree there, classroom buildings are never that empty. I'm assuming anyone who approached him was shot at, or at least warned off with a gun, but I have not seen any details about this. For example the leading cerebral palsy researcher who was killed does not appear to have been part of any of the classrooms attacked, so I speculate that most likely he was killed in a hallway, possibly while a door was being chained.
Glenn
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Bill Glasheen
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Simply put, he timed it well.Glenn wrote:
I'm curious as to how he managed to chain 3 doors in Norris Hall prior to the shooting spree there
A simple study of number of people in a building hallway over time would easily show the striking periodicity. The halls are chaos in-between classes. They are often vacant at a certain point (around 10 to 15 minutes) after the start of classes.
All classes in academic buildings generally start at the same time on a given day. I assume classes started at 11:00. The shooting started at 11:15.
"Bold" moves (such as chaining doors) are best done efficiently and with purpose. If you're not running around like a maniac, you won't attract attention. By all accounts of eyewitnesses, Cho was in a zone the entire time.
In contrast... Think of what might have happened had Timothy McVeigh not "fled" the Oklahoma City crime scene. Miraculously he was caught by an unsuspecting trooper. How? For speeding. Had he driven away deliberately and with everyday purpose, he wouldn't have triggered anyone's suspicions. We might never know who did that cowardly act.
- Bill
Patient anecdotes can be given in a way that conceals (or even misleads about) relevant identifiers including race, age, sex, name, appearance or any other detail that would lead a reader back to the individual--yet relays the important information. See my anecdote about a liver patient as one example.
--Ian
