Research reference : syllabus of Uechi Kambun's school

[Bill Glasheen]

Additionally...

While working out last night in the gym I pondered the itch that Marcus needs scratched. Marcus can be a real cheap son-of-a-gun at times... Wants everything for free.

I have however "teased" minds with what I say are parallels in this form, the "Big Three" forms, and the bridge kata. It is a fascinating piece of work.

Imagine knowing only Sanchin and Seisan, and you heard that there was another form Kanbun knew and never taught. Someone comes back from Fuzhou and has this Sanseiryu form. You learn it. Would YOU be able to tell that this form belonged with Sanchin and Seisan? I know I would have a tough time of it with only two data points to extrapolate from. Most I believe would reject Sanseiryu as belonging to Sanchin and Seisan. It truly is a different animal.

It's a LITTLE easier having seen three (instead of two) forms in a sequence, and then guessing if a fourth belongs there somewhere either as a missing piece in a package or perhaps some distant but highly relevant cousin. It's easier still if you've done some forms from other cousin styles (like Wing Chun) and are qualifed to teach in a related Naha system (like Goju Ryu). That's my perspective.

What might make some interesting piecemeal clips and/or a full DVD would be some comparative analysis. I talk about sequences on these threads, but it's hard to picture them. It's easier if you see them being done first in Form A and then in Form B.

Let me think about this a bit...

Yea, I do get around to some things now and then.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

So I take it this stuff isnt on Simons dvd ?

I've worked with Simon 4 or 5 times through the years, often 3 days in a session. Simon says Chinese names. They go in one ear and out the other. Occasionally he'll write something down for me, and I'll memorize it.

The original name is yi bai lin ba bu = 108 steps. The reference isn't to 108 steps in the kata methinks, but rather 108 steps to enlightenment in Buddism. Suparinpei also means 108, although it uses the "on" rather than "kun" pronunciation of the characters.

Simon talks a bit on various tapes about what he thinks the whole naming convention means. He doesn't make a big deal about it. Rather he says it's fashionable to name your forms using these references to religion with all the numerology. Thus you could know a Seisan and I could know a Seisan, and they could be two entirely different pieces of work. It's just cool to have "a" Seisan in your system.

It's been a long time since I've seen these taped interviews. But they are worth looking at.

- Bill

[Stryke]

wonder how long this stands before it`s deleted .

(Your wish is my command Marcus) G.Mattson

[M J Brelsford]

Bill,

There you go again... miss info...we actually met twice before.

Hope your karate is better then your memory.

Mark

[Stryke]

Pm Bill .

[fivedragons]

Regarding numerology in the temple arts.

Sanchin - 3 conflicts

Seisan - 12 - sanchin times seisan is...

Sanseiryu - 36 - sanchin times sanseiryu is....

suparempi - 108

Another number, 54, Stryke?....

2 times 54 = 108

Moving meditation?

It gets weird when you look at sanchin as 3 movements to open, 3 steps in 3 directions (north, south, north), 3 double nukites, 3 wa uke and double palm strike in three different directions, 3 strikes after the opening (nukite, double nukite and double palm).

Mind, body, spirit, crane, tiger, dragon, height, length, depth, father, son, holy ghost.

[fivedragons]

As I've mentioned Dr. Seuss in another thread, might as well mention school house rock - "3 is the magic number".

[fivedragons]

The embusan describes 3 lines side by side, and then the 3 points of a triangle.

Striking while 1) linear stepping, 2) stationary, 3) angled stepping.

Concluding movements: 1) high and low parry, 2) high parry into circular retraction with low parry into large circle, 3) double palm.

If you take the first 3 steps and break down arm movements into 3 straight lines (nukite) and 3 rounded retractions, you can see the 3 sides of a triangle, and if you trace a circle around the triangle touching the three points you will see the 3 arcs of the retractions.

A triangle within a circle.

[fivedragons]

Heaven, earth and man.

Future, past and present.

Et cetera....

[Rick Wilson]

I will give this another go, Bill.

When you speak of that Kata being the lost fourth Kata of Uechi Ryu then YOU have defined what we are referring to as Uechi Ryu – the original style learned by Uechi Kanbun.

The story, as some believe, goes that Uechi Kanbun learned only three of the four Kata in the system.

Mr. Lailey claims this is the lost fourth Kata that Uechi Kanbun did not learn.

Many of your comments imply the same thing, Bill.

So the definition you have given for Uechi in this case is that this Kata is of the original four of the style Uechi Kanbun studied in China.

However, the facts are the people who do this form do not do any of the other Big Three.

Simple logic says that this then is from a different system.

Therefore when you imply, claim, or wink about this being the fourth Kata of the original Uechi Ryu I have to call you on it and say it is not Uechi.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what you do or call your Uechi today or anyone else does.

If you want to say I learned this neat form and it is now part of my Uechi -- fine.

But when you imply that it was the one Uechi Kanbun didn’t learn then I call that as I see it – not Uechi.

To me that is a no brainer.

Why push this as anything but a Chinese form you have made part of your Uechi?

Why try to imply it is the lost fourth Kata of Uechi Ryu?

The form does NOT share the same name but rather the form’s name is “Yi Bai In Ba Bu” not Suparinpei. Both translate to contain 108 but the rest of the names are different as I understand it.

Yi Bai In Ba Bu = 108 steps?

And Suparinpei = 108 fists?

There are numerous 108 forms.

Because if it is then close is not the same in translating.

That is like saying the 108 Ducks Kata is the same as 108 Fish Kata.

Simply not true.

So the issue I have is the BS surrounding this form being the lost Uechi form and it is advertised that way by Mr. Lailey – I have seen the ads for seminars.

Yet, as I said, in all the hours and hours of footage he has of those practitioners there is no Sanchin, now Seisan and no Sanseirui.

The Kata do not exist in their practice but some how the lost fourth Kata does.

Now get this, the new word is Uechi Kanbun was taught a separate system there that has now died – oh – well – exceot -- for the fourth form.

Bill enjoy your 108 Kata.

Bill practice your 108 Kata.

Bill teach your 108 Kata.

Heck, Bill call your 108 Kata your Uechi.

But stop trying to sell it as something it is not.

You defined it as the original “Uechi Kata” not as “Your Uechi.”

And Bill ------ it isn’t Uechi.

The original that is.

[Rick Wilson]

And as for the extra material that has turned up in other Kata being proof that Uechi Kanbun saw the missing fourth form – HUH?

Who here who practices Uechi uses roundhouse kicks?

Goodness they must come from the missing fifth form or how else could we know and do something outside of our style????

Well perhaps we worked out with some guys from other styles and picked some useful things up?

Gee I wonder if when practicing with Shushiwa if Uechi Kanbun ever practiced or saw other styles?

Wow what a concept?

Sorry for the sarcasm but really, can we draw the conclusion that there MUST be a fourth Kata just because some outside material showed up in Uechi?

The roundhouse kick is from the lost fifth form folks!

It has to be it not in the Big Three.

[jorvik]

Well just a word in Bill's defence
He didn't discover this Kata, Simon Lalley did...Bill didn't validate it either. That was down to a comment, I believe by Master Toyama, who said that he had seen a similar Kata performed by Chinese that Kanei Uechi had visiting him, (also their physiques were like Master Toyamas. so they undertook a similar regime, presumably )
As has been commented elsewhere Master Toyama's Sanseirui ( Sandaryu) us somewhat different from what other folks practice, which raises more questions.Did he learn this from Kanei or did he invent the modifications himself?did Kanbum change this kata?......did the kata evolve and change due to Kanei's later insights?
I don't believe Bill has particularly close links to Master Toyama or Seizan, so I take their comments as being impartial.
finally I get the impression that Bill's day job pays a whole lot more than the revenue that he would get from selling a few DVD's on the Net.

to another topic though. How much do the Sons of leading Sensei change their Father's teachings??
I know that it has happened in Aikido and that Iwama Aikido is much closer to what Ueshiba did than "Traditional Aikido" i.e. Aikikai.......and also Tomiki's school isn't really Aikido, in fact he was asked to change the name from Aikido to something else.
Look at shotokan...mainly the product of Gigo Funakoshi and Sensei Nakayama.....................and then you have lots of chinese arts with similar strange tales.
William Cheung was taught the proper form of Wing-chun by Ip-Man, but he taught his own sons a false variation ..............Leung ting is a direct student of Ip-Man .although nobody is quite sure where he learned Wing-chun , or when.
And lost kata??.......there is a lost kata in Hung gar......and Lau Gar is purported by some to be a poor copy of one Hung gar form the "Lau-Gar Fist"

anyway interesting discussion

[gmattson]

Yet, as I said, in all the hours and hours of footage he has of those practitioners there is no Sanchin, no Seisan and no Sanseirui.

Well Rick, I'm not sure what videos you watched, but I've seen at least a dozen different "Sanchin" performed by Fukien stylist. (A couple being displayed on the E.A. Learning Center)However, none of them look exactly like our Sanchin. The reason for this? Well, basically because the Chinese modify their kata to suit their own needs and interpretations of the movements. I can say the same has happened with Seisan and Sanseiryu.

The fact that the Chinese searched for the roots of Uechi and didn't find the kata in a form that we recognized doesn't mean a thing. Hell, I've seen ex students of mine who do Uechi as taught by me 40-50 years ago and I don't recognize what they are doing today! And practitioners in the West are far more protective of their "roots" and of the "original" makeup of the system than any Chinese practitioner.

So does a 4th kata exist in Uechi. Hell yes. And probably a 5th and 6th. And I bet many other conditioning drills and fighting drills.

In a second interview with Simon which I believe is also for sale in the store, he talks about how Superempi changed from the first time he learned it compared to how he saw it being performed a few years later. So is it any wonder that you don't recognize Sanchin, Seisan and Sanseiryu after a 150 years? Go figure.

[Bill Glasheen]

PHANTOM INSULTS

I went to check my PMs because I invited Mark to communicate with me concerning an exchange of information. In doing so, I found I offended two different parties.

The first comment I made was mis-read. I called Marcus a cheap son-of-a-gun. I admit it. NO backing away. However I was very careful NOT to call him a more nasty version of the same, making references to the female variety of canis familiaris. I started writing the first, and edited it to say the less offensive variety - for good reason.

It was a "cheap" shot. Bad pun, I know. In my heart of hearts, I believe now and then my mate deserves a jab. I take enough of them, after all - probably far too many.

But if you tick off a good person, it isn't good. I apologize.

I think George must have edited the comment out. I can't find it any more. Let me know.

On a second comment. I made a passing comment about loving to hear certain people all day long. It was sincere. But in the way I said it, it must have been taken the wrong way. Fercryinoutloud... Sometimes no good deed goes unpunished.

I am not editing that comment out, because I want all to see it. I write too fast and too much. Sometimes my words don't come out right. But my heart was in the right place there.

My bad.

And finally...

I have been called an Absent Minded Professor by many. I AM such a personality, although not to the extreme degree that you see in the various Disney movies.

However....

For the life of me, Mark, I cannot recall when I ever met you. Really and truly. You claim I met you twice.

Was that my evil twin Bill????

You will need to refresh my addled brain, because I don't recall, Mark. Got any pictures? Was it a regional?

And we never have had that beer. Either that or I had so many when we did so that I have an excuse for not remembering.

You know what they say about the Irish...

- Bill

[gmattson]

absent-mindedness... I have a long list of things Bill promised to do that I'm sure will, given sufficient time, be done.

And I know all of Bill's friends understand this little "quirk" of his.

But we love him just the same!

And... we don't let anyone pick on him except us!