Research reference : syllabus of Uechi Kambun's school

[Bill Glasheen]

Where is Rodney when we need him!

Can we all just get along???

[Rick Wilson]

Good one.

Bill PM for you.

[maxwell ainley]

Back to the original question ;Kanbuns syllabus [JAPAN/ CHJNA.]
1. Three kata ,conditioning, kumite.

What he actually taught ,and how it was structured ,to get the results he was wanting .

[gmattson]

Sorry George but I disagree that we could not recognize Sanchin or Seisan or Sanseirui when modified I personally have not had any problem picking them out of any film I have seen taken at anytime. And I respectfully propose that you don’t either.

Your statement would make more sense if the Chinese, who spent 5 years researching kanbun's years in China, found anyone in Fujian Province still doing the "uechi" style as we are practicing it today or Kanbun practiced it in 1900.

Marty Dow spoke with a very old man in the audience after our group and the Fuzhou group performed a public demonstration of Uechi and various Fuzhou martial arts. This old man told Marty he remembered seeing our style performed "as we did it that day". He also commented that it was interesting how we preserved the movements so accurately.

The China research committee's goal was not to find the "movements", but to find the "roots" to what we are now doing. To that extent, they believe they had succeeded.

The Okinawa/USA delegation was more interested in finding someone in China who was doing the movements and to that end, failed.

Now we can draw some conclusions based on:

1. The movements passed on by Kanbun no longer are being taught in China, Taiwan or Hong Kong (many of the old masters fled to these countries following the Cultural Revolution).

2. The Fuzhou committee had the resources to painstakingly research the subject and based on their findings, determined that Shushiwa was the person we were looking for.

What might we surmise, based on these two statements:

a. The system we call "uechi" was not popular enough to be taught by the one of the Chinese seniors.

b. The system still exists, but has been changed or become "part of" other systems, so only the names of the forms remain as they were in 1900.

I tend to go along with the "b" option, which is also what the China committee believes.

Which is why I look for "identifying" characteristics of Uechi-ryu rather than replicas of our kata to find our "roots" in China.

Bill has it "dead on" by looking at the system from an engineering prospective. Use what we know in the 'big three" to create a picture of what #4 might look like. Not what a "preserved" Superempi should look like, but what might be offered in the way of technique understanding, filling the blanks in understanding, length of set, complexity of set, physical demands of set.

There is a ton of material in the 3 dvd set called "Search for Shushiwa!" We documented our whole trip, including many interviews and demonstrations. There are two extremely detailed and informative dvd with Simon on the subject of Superempi. And finally, a really great dvd by Bill.

Finally, there was some discussion relating to how Simon performed the kata vs how Bill performs it. Goju flavor vs Uechi flavor. Same kata, but different interpretation. In my mind, this is how the kata should be performed. Simon brings a gojo perspective to all his martial arts. Bill brings his Uechi. I suspect that in Fuzhou, a hundred years ago, in a country that has literally hundreds of different "flavors", sanchin, seisan, sanseiryu and superempi and ...... will be sliced, diced and offered to us 150 years later in a package we might not recognize at all. But if you had lived with and during every modification, the process might have made much more sense to you. And you would be saying today... "of course this is the same superempi kanbun was taught!

Just as Jimmy Maloney says "This is the same sanseiryu George taught me"!

[MikeK]

Well, i see what your saying.

i find lots of fellow TMA who know so many different kata but know little applications.

Am i right to assume you mean to have many kata at hand to examine and dissected, rather then learning one kata then learning another and another without stopping and admiring it?

I dont entirely agree, but you present a very good arguement, and i think it's something i shoudl think about.

I've dropped the dissecting of kata so what I mean is many kata to find one that works for you. I like Kanshu because the techniques are my goto ones, but I learned those outside of Uechi. But since Kanshu puts a good chunk of what I do into a nice bundle, if I find my goto techniques going down hill I brush off Kanshu and start working them. I'm not even a Uechi guy or even a kata kind of guy anymore but I will adopt something from anywhere and discard it if I find something that fits me better.

[MikeK]

Here's a dopey question.

Since it seems that Kanbun was exposed to other Okinawan martial arts do we have proof that his Sanchin really came from China or was it something he learned on Okinawa?

[Bill Glasheen]

Here's a dopey question.

Since it seems that Kanbun was exposed to other Okinawan martial arts do we have proof that his Sanchin really came from China or was it something he learned on Okinawa?

Not so dopey, Mike. And I like the open-minded attitude about it all.

If you ask different people, you will get different answers.

Uechi Kanei's Kyohon and Toyama Sensei hold to the belief that Kanbun tried to be true to his teacher's teachings. And that would be the fellow we call Shushiwa.

However Kanbun did study arts before going to China, and Higaonna brought back an open-handed version of Sanchin before Miyagi Chojun altered it to the modern Okinawan variety. So it's entirerly possible that Kanbun at least saw a more Chinese version of Sanchin while still on Okinawa. For what it's worth... A martial artist contemporary of mine whom I studied with years back (Bill Stockey) likes to collect kata. He and I first started training together under a Japanese. Bill came across and learned an open-handed Sanchin which he believes comes from a non-Kanbun lineage. It very well may have bypassed the whole Miyagi change and was preserved as Higaonna taught it. It's a fascinating piece of work.

It's also worth noting that Shushiwa wasn't Kanbun's first teacher while in China. In the Kyohon it states that he started with another dojo, but had a serious personality conflict with a student in that school. He left there to go to his second and final school.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Uechi Kanei's Kyohon and Toyama Sensei hold to the belief that Kanbun tried to be true to his teacher's teachings. And that would be the fellow we call Shushiwa.

Having never seen much less read the book I don't know how closely you're quoting Kanei's Kyohon, but I find the idea "that Kanbun tried to be true to his teacher's teachings" interesting. Does that necessarily mean doing exactly what his teacher did or approaching things the way his teacher did? To me it's a big difference, and I'll let you guess which one I'd say was likely for a smart karate master.

[Bill Glasheen]

It's a good, hard question to ask, Mike.

I've seen emotional responses to it. All you have to do is look at the reaction to Simon's form to witness the same phenomenon. And it happens in science as well. (Global warming is a great example)

You might find this introspective look at Naha-te styles to be revealing.

Unraveling The Mysteries Of The Nafadi Tradition: Its Kata

I thought Joe Swift did a great job trying to unravel the "history" of what Goju is. Note how he took nothing for granted, and indeed concludes that much of the oral history and conventional wisdom cannot be backed up.

There was recently a re-published interview of Kanbun from I believe the 1930s where he is talking about his style. While you have to read between the lines to conclude a lot, it would lead you to believe that Kanbun was still developing his art while teaching.

- Bill

[Glenn]

It's also worth noting that Shushiwa wasn't Kanbun's first teacher while in China. In the Kyohon it states that he started with another dojo, but had a serious personality conflict with a student in that school. He left there to go to his second and final school.

- Bill

If I recall from Mark Bishop's book (which is not with me at the moment) that first school Kanbun started at was a Kojo Ryu dojo, apparently where one of the Kojo family members was teaching karate to Okinawans liviing in Fuzhou China. I can find no mention of Kojo Ryu ever having a Sanchin kata, for example here is a site that lists kata for the various Okinawa styles: http://www.totejitsu.com/kata.php But it would be difficult to say what was taught at the Fuzhou Kojo dojo at that time.

From http://www.kojosho.com/spring2003/page1.html :

The next, or Fourth Generation, brings us to Kojo Kaho. It seems that Kaho left Okinawa with Iwah and eventually established a martial arts school in China in 1874. The Kojo Fuzhou Dojo became a center for many Okinawans passing through Fuzhou. It was also known as the "Cai" dojo, after the Chinese pronunciation of Kojo. Its founder, Kojo Kaho, was one of the few people from Okinawa ever to become a teacher to the Chinese.

From http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=478 :

Kanbun arrived in Fuzhou City, Fujian province, Southern China and like many Okinawans before him (Higashionna, Kinjo, Nakaima, etc.) Kanbun reportedly settled in at the Ryukyukan (Kinjo, 1999), a Okinawan enclave of buildings including a boarding house, homes and businesses established for those who visited and lived in the area including migrant workers who came to Fujian seeking employment. Uechi Kanbun started working at a variety of different jobs and began practicing at the Kojo dojo, run by the Kojo family located next to the Ryukyukan (Kinjo, 1999).

Unfortunately, it has never been ascertained exactly what form of boxing was taught at the Kojo dojo during that era. Kanbun trained as hard as he could until one eventful day when the head instructor of the Kojo dojo reportedly called him "Uechi no wada buta gwa" ('little fool'). Slighted by the insult, Kanbun decided to leave the Kojo dojo and the Ryukyukan to find his studies elsewhere.

Uechi's martial studies can be documented with some degree of accuracy up to the time he left the Kojo dojo. After he left, however, it becomes somewhat difficult to determine which direction his martial studies took.

[MikeK]

Glen, but does that mean that he had never seen a Sanchin kata?

Bill, here's what I think, and it's just my opinion based on what I see. The three kata are from Okinawa.
Maybe, just maybe, Kanbun went to China and learned a form of tiger boxing. He taught the Chinese the way the Chinese did, but when the time came to teach Okinawans he adopted and tweaked Okinawan kata to fit what he wanted to teach to Okinawans. To me this makes sense from a practical and cultural standpoint. How's that for a theory.

Send all emails for my heresy to GEM.

[Bill Glasheen]

The problem with your theory, Mike, is that there is nothing like the second half of Uechi Seisan on Okinawa, and nothing like ANY of Uechi Sanseiryu on Okinawa.

Goju and Uechi Seisans are very similar up to the first turn. Dana and I get into disagreements about this but... The kata appear (to me) to be quite different after that first turn.

And the only thing that Goju and Uechi Sanseiryu share is the name. They aren't even close. And there's nothing else like it on Okinawa that I am aware of.

Kanbun learned some things when in Fuzhou that other Okinawans either hadn't seen or haven't preserved.

- Bill

[Glenn]

Glen, but does that mean that he had never seen a Sanchin kata?

Impossible to say what he had seen. Okinawan martial arts training was more secret back then but Kanbun reportedly had done some training on Okinanwa and may have participated in demonstrations there, where he could have seen Sanchin. Here is another snippet from Mario McKenna's biography of Kanbun on FightArts.com:

Kanbun grew-up on the Motobu peninsula of Okinawa under the watchful eye of his father. Although his family was 'shizoku' (noble family), they worked as farmers. During Uechi Kanbun's teenage years, it was a fashion of that era to perform "karate and bo dances" accompanied to the music of the shamisen (Kinjo, 1999). More than likely Uechi Kanbun was familiar with these dances and they may have served as a means to inspire his martial studies (Kinjo, 1999).

Kanbun gained some formal training in karate and bo techniques from a man named Touichi 'Tanmei' (lit. 'old man'; a term of respect). But his resolve to study the fighting arts in China was inspired by stories of Chinese masters told to him by a martial artist named Toyama. So, in March 1897, at the age of nineteen, Uechi Kanbun left Okinawa for Southern China.

Other sources say that Kanbun had learned some martial arts from four people on Okinawa prior to going to China: His father Uechi Kantoku, bojitsu from Kise Taru and Toyozato, and te from Toyama.

Whether he saw Sanchin on Okinawa prior to going to Okinawa is pure speculation. Kanbun was born in 1877 and Kanryo Higaonna brought his Sanchin back to Okinawa in the early 1880s (one source says 1881), so there would have been at least one version of Sanchin being taught and maybe demonstrated on Okinawa when Kanbun was training. However note that Kanbun was in the Motobu area while Kanryo was teaching around 40 miles away in Naha (here is a map: http://gojapan.about.com/od/japanmapbyr ... kinawa.htm ). Not a great distance now but significant back then in Okinawa. Whether Kanbun would have been exposed to Higaonna's Sanchin would depend on if any of Higaonna's students had travelled/moved to Motobu or Kanbun had travelled to Naha.

[MikeK]

The problem with your theory, Mike, is that there is nothing like the second half of Uechi Seisan on Okinawa, and nothing like ANY of Uechi Sanseiryu on Okinawa.

Goju and Uechi Seisans are very similar up to the first turn. Dana and I get into disagreements about this but... The kata appear (to me) to be quite different after that first turn.

And the only thing that Goju and Uechi Sanseiryu share is the name. They aren't even close. And there's nothing else like it on Okinawa that I am aware of.

Kanbun learned some things when in Fuzhou that other Okinawans either hadn't seen or haven't preserved.

- Bill

Exactly why I said tweaked the Okinawan kata to fit his needs. For example I've seen it before with Gankaku and Chinto kata. They are almost identical at the beginning but seem to drift further and further apart as they progress. Maybe the first part fit him but the second half didn't. We know that kata were changed all of the time before WWII.

Has anybody found a Sanseiryu in China? If not we may have to at least entertain the thought that Kanbun was the choreographer.

[Glenn]

It's always possible that Kanbun took what he learned and made up his own kata, but none of the oral history passed down supports this.