Debate grows over use of Tasers by police

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Glenn
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Debate grows over use of Tasers by police

Post by Glenn »

Debate grows over use of Tasers by police

Selected quotes:
Police say Tasers are valuable tools for avoiding hand-to-hand struggles that can injure officers and citizens. Small, portable and often effective even when merely brandished, Tasers — which fire tiny, tethered cartridges that transmit electrical currents — have become common in law enforcement in recent years, with some 11,500 police agencies using them.

But critics say Tasers are being used as a weapon of first resort, sometimes on frail or mentally ill people.

“What’s at issue is whether the level of force being used is appropriate for arresting somebody,” said Allen Gilbert, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union in Vermont. “The Fourth Amendment protects you from unreasonable seizures, which means police can’t use excessive force when they’re taking you into custody.”

Supporters of Tasers say they reduce workers’ compensation and lost time claims by police by preventing physical confrontations.

“We went over an entire year without a single lost hour of employee time or officer injury relating to wrestling or struggling to get a prisoner into custody, which is virtually unheard of,” said Deputy Chief Walt Decker of the Burlington, Vt., Police Department.

His department, which got Tasers last year, spent more than $150,000 on lost time the year before for officers sidelined by on-the-job injuries suffered subduing suspects, he said.

To many, the issue isn’t whether Tasers should be used, it’s how.
Glenn
cxt
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Post by cxt »

Its a weird deal--Tasers are often used because they are supposed to LESS dangerous than other methods to restrain violent people.

On the other hand, mis-use and over-use of the same is abuse of power.
Forget #6, you are now serving nonsense.

HH
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Post by AAAhmed46 »

Yeah.

There was footage on the news once that there was a girl, probably 110 pounds, swearing again and again, on the ground, their hauling her like rice.


Thing is though, every time she said FAAA...KKk they tasered her.

Then she cursed again and was tasered again.





I think instead of focussing on a single weapon, they should focus on abuse overall.

Hell everything can be abused.
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RA Miller
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Post by RA Miller »

I happened to read the Amnesty International report while doing some research. Here are some thoughts:

http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/2007/08/152.html

Rory
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Post by Taekido »

I've used the Taser three times against violent felons. Each time it successfully stopped their aggression and brought the incident to a close. In the first two instances, the individuals were resisting/attacking fellow Deputies. One 5 second cycle was all that was required. Neither the felon nor Deputies were injured.

In the third situation, the female was attempting to harm herself and Deputies. One 5 second cycle ceased her actions and she received no further injuries beyond those she self inflicted prior to being tasered. None of the Deputies were injured.

In short, yes...anything can and will be abused. But in this particular tool is far more good to be gained than anything else. Any tool that has this rate of effectiveness, can prevent injury to both the bad guys and the good guys is an effective tool. Yes, you will have the occasional situation where someone tasered falls to the ground as is run over by a bus etc. It isn't a perfect world.

It by far is superior to O.C. spray. In and of itself it will not cause the damage an ASP or PR24 will or could cause. Tactically it cannot replace a sidearm. But it is an excellent tool, for private citizens as well. Taser offers civilian models that are small and practical. Many will offer a 30 second tasing cycle. The idea is that a citizen can taser a bad guy, place the taser on the ground and escape the situation. If the taser is not recovered, Taser will replace it for free.

And after being tased for 30 seconds....the bad guy isn't likely to be very bad for a while.

Just some thoughts from someone that carries one and has used it.
:)
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Glenn
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Post by Glenn »

As with anything there is the potential for abuse and no doubt there are some isolated cases where it has happened with tasers, but as Rory's blog points out there is equally the potential for certain parties to make the danger seem worse than it really is. Anymore the media and public response is to burn down the orchard to get rid of a few bad apples.

Part of the problem is that the public/media/policy-makers are rarely held liable for the policies they bring about. If concerns about tasers based on a few isolated cases of fatality or abuse resulted in increasing restrictions on taser user to the extent that an officer has to use physical/deadly force more often, who is going to be held accountable for any resulting injuries or deaths that could have been prevented by taser use? The public/media/policy-makers? Nope, the officers who had to use the force would be held accountable. Ironically you would likely then get civil suits brought against officers claiming they should have used tasers and caused avoidable injury/death because they did not use tasers. None of this would come back on Amnesty International, ACLU, etc. though.

As for the video clips of police abuse that are popular on the web, take those with a grain of salt. Usually you are seeing only part of the overall footage. One of the investigative programs, Dateline I think, had a program on this earlier this week. For example there was a case in Florida where police at a jail video-taped their handling of a inmate because her father is a influential official. When she found out she was being taped she started acting up and they were forced to use force to subdue her, on camera, with her acting panicked. She and her father got a copy of the footage and selectively released the portion of her being subdued while appearing to be panicked, and the media and web-viewers bought into it, forming negative opinion against the police. When you see the whole footage it is clear what is going on. This program briefly showed a tasering in a montage, but used no examples of tasering being claimed as abuse, leading to my impression that most concern of abuse is over physical and lethal force...could have just been selectivity by Dateline though.
Glenn
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Post by AAAhmed46 »

You can seriously hurt someone with your knuckles.


Lets outlaw them.........
MikeK
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Post by MikeK »

Wheelchair-Bound Woman Dies After Being Shocked With Taser 10 Times

Wed Sep 19, 9:38 AM ET

A Clay County woman's family said it's seeking justice after their loved one died shortly after being shocked 10 times with Taser guns during a confrontation with police.

The family of 56-year-old Emily Delafield said it would take the Green Cove Springs Police Department to court, according to a WJXT-TV report.

In April 2006, officers with the police department said they were called to a disturbance at a home in the 400 block of Harrison Street just before 5 p.m.

In a 911 call made to the Green Cove Springs, Delafield can be heard telling a dispatcher that she believed she was in danger:

Dispatcher: And what's the problem?

Delafield: My sister is waiting on my property.

Dispatcher: Your what?

Delafield: My sister (inaudible) is on my property trying to harm me.

Officers said they arrived to find Delafield in a wheelchair, armed with two knives and a hammer. Police said the woman was swinging the weapons at family members and police.

Within an hour of her call to 911, Delafield, a wheelchair-bound woman documented to have mental illness, was dead.

Family attorney Rick Alexander said Delafield's death could have been prevented and that there are four things that jump out at him about the case.

"One, she's in a wheelchair. Two, she's schizophrenic. Three, they're using a Taser on a person that's in a wheelchair, and then four is that they tasered her 10 times for a period of like two minutes," Alexander said.

According to a police report, one of the officers used her Taser gun nine times for a total of 160 seconds and the other officer discharged his Taser gun once for a total of no more than five seconds.

A medical examiner found Delafield died from hypertensive heart disease and cited the Taser gun shock as a contributing factor, the report said. On her death certificate, the medical examiner ruled Delafield's death a homicide.

The family said it plans to sue the Green Coves Springs Police Department now that it has all the reports regarding their loved one's death.

"We're going to try to compensate the estate and the family and try to get justice," Alexander said.

He said he believes the evidence weighs heavily in favor of Delafield's family and that justice will be served.

"I think that this evidence is going to show, along with some of the evidence we've collected outside of here, that there is no reason Emily Delafield should have died that day," Alexander said.

He said he plans to file a notice to sue sometime before the end of the year.
The important points.

Family attorney Rick Alexander: "One, she's in a wheelchair."
RESPONSE: Officers said they arrived to find Delafield in a wheelchair, armed with two knives and a hammer. Police said the woman was swinging the weapons at family members and police.

FARA: Two, she's schizophrenic.
RESPONSE: Officers said they arrived to find Delafield in a wheelchair, armed with two knives and a hammer. Police said the woman was swinging the weapons at family members and police.

FARA: Three, they're using a Taser on a person that's in a wheelchair
RESPONSE: Officers said they arrived to find Delafield in a wheelchair, armed with two knives and a hammer. Police said the woman was swinging the weapons at family members and police.

FARA: and then four is that they tasered her 10 times for a period of like two minutes,"
RESPONSE: Officers said they arrived to find Delafield in a wheelchair, armed with two knives and a hammer. Police said the woman was swinging the weapons at family members and police.
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MikeK
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Post by MikeK »

GREEN COVE SPRINGS, Fla. -- A 56-year-old woman died after being shocked by a Taser gun during a confrontation with Green Cove Springs police Monday afternoon.

Officers said they were called to a disturbance at a home in the 400 block of Harrison Street just before 5 p.m., finding Emily Delafield in a wheelchair, armed with two knives and a hammer. Police said she was swinging the weapons at family members and police.

Delafield's family members told Channel 4 the woman did not take her medication on Monday, and that may have been why she picked up the weapons.

When Delafield would not put down the knives and hammer, officers used a Taser gun on her. She lost consciousness after being taken into custody and died later at Orange Park Medical Center.

"Our officers attempted to disarm her ... and family members became involved -- they attempted on several occasions to have her release the knives and hammer," Chief Robert Musco said. "After several minutes the Taser was utilized and the subject was disarmed."

Musco also said Delafield's family gave the officers permission to use the Taser on the woman.

The Florida Department of Law Enforcement is investigating the incident and an autopsy will be conducted to determine the cause of death. The state attorney's office will also review the case.

"This is pretty devastating to us," said Velma Ziegler, Delafield's friend. "I just feel, personally, myself, that other forces could have been used besides tasing her -- especially the person being in a wheelchair."

Two officers involved were put on paid administrative leave during the investigation, which is standard procedure.

Green Cove Springs police told Channel 4's Casey Black that officers had responded to Delafield's home 29 times in the last two years for disturbances.
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Glenn
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Post by Glenn »

It's easy to say "that other forces could have been used besides tasing her -- especially the person being in a wheelchair", but I don't see anyone offering suggestions. How do they propose to safely deal with someone trying to attack police and bystanders with knives? I suppose they could have pulled their guns and shot her.

It's also a sad commentary on society when family call the police in because they feel threatened and cannot deal with the situation, and then sue the police for dealing with the threatening situation using accepted but potentilly deadly techniques. This is strictly a get-rich-quick attempt.
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MikeK
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Post by MikeK »

They could have had the local FD shoot her with water from a high pressure hose.

Or Animal Control get one of those noose on a stick things around her head.

Or maybe the cops could have shot out the tires on her wheelchair.

Many other options once you look at it. :wink:

Maybe they could have waited her out but even then if she hurt herself the cops would be in some shyster lawyers crosshairs.
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cxt
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Post by cxt »

Its a sad situation.

I also agree with Glenn

Lets not forget that one of the reasons that the TASER was introduced is that it was proported as a "safer" method of bringing down a bad guy.
"Safer" for everyone INCLUDING the suspect.
Nightsticks etc were and are viewed by the public as excessive in many cases.

Like any tool they can be overused and/or used improperly.

In truth--if the suspect really was a schizophrenic, then she represented more danger to her family and the offcies not less as "Alexander" seems to imply.

Its sad really, had the police refused to try and disarm the "crazy lady armed with knives and a hammer" because they feared GETTING sued they would have been sued anyway.

Imgaine the LEO's telling the family:

"Sorry, but since she is in a wheelchair there is no real threat to life or threat that she might injure others, plus since shes schizophrenic this a job for her mental health professional......we will keep an eye on her, but there is no way I'm opening my men up to a possible lawsuit as long as nobodies life or properity is in diredct danger."

Or if they had asked the family to sign a wavier prior to trying to take her into custody.

People would freak.

All methods of restraint carry with them risk of injury and death.
Drugs stong enough to KO a person can stop your heart/cause brain damage--they could seriously injured falling down or off something.

What do you do?
Forget #6, you are now serving nonsense.

HH
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Post by IJ »

Getting arrested and restrained is stressful, and people who are ill sometimes die when stressed. Period. I do wonder, however, why no one was able to pin her arms when tazed. Were there insufficient officers? There wasn't someone to say, "Hey bob, tazing again in 3 seconds, you grab left and lucy go grab right"? She was hit ten times.
--Ian
cxt
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Post by cxt »

IJ

I agree, that sounds horribly excessive---and its being investigated.
Forget #6, you are now serving nonsense.

HH
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

Getting arrested and restrained is stressful, and people who are ill sometimes die when stressed. Period. I do wonder, however, why no one was able to pin her arms when tazed. Were there insufficient officers? There wasn't someone to say, "Hey bob, tazing again in 3 seconds, you grab left and lucy go grab right"? She was hit ten times.
This really makes the most sense.
Van
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