Where yakusoku and bunkai kumite should take us

[Bill Glasheen]

I've been watching myriad threads going on over time about practices, habits (good and bad) and shortcomings with respect to yakusoku kumite (Kyu and Dan kumite in the Uechi style) and bunkai kumite (Seisan or Kanshiwa bunkai in the Uechi style). The discussions evoke such a cacophony of responses - expressed with such passion and absolute certainty - that it makes me strangely quiet.

It happens...

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

- Hamlet Act 3, scene 2, 230


It reminds me of growing up in my household with 8 kids and 2 parents. Having six sisters (4 redheads) and an older brother made me quiet around the dinner table. There was no use saying anything. I would rather just sit back and watch it all.

In life, I found my own voice when I went out on my own. With the passionate K-threads, I find it best first to understand what the opinions and ideas are all about, and much later to be understood. Covey taught me well.

I don't claim to be standard anything when practicing, training, and teaching. We do our own thing, and we use all the basic tools that help us on our respective journeys. The yakusoku and bunkai kumite drills have been important for my learning AND my teaching.

But in my view, the brain freeze happens when people focus on them like a dog focuses on your hand pointing at Lassie on TV. These are tools for me. I need to get my students' engines running and vehicles in gear before I can comment on their driving. We need a controlled environment in which to engage in cooperative, semi-cooperative, and uncooperative conflict.

As I often tell my students, doing these exercises isn't the goal. Doing the exercises is what is necessary before the learning can begin. These are a means to an end, and not an end unto themselves. For example...

• How can I (NOT you!!!) teach people about lines of force if we don't first have an active but controlled environment where people are attacking each other?
• How can I teach people how to preempt an attack if they haven't seen it come at them literally at least a thousand times?
• How can I get people not to flinch their way to cowering and flailing when the poop is hitting the rotating propeller if they don't have an opportunity to spend long periods of time engaged with hands, feet, elbows, knees and such all flying about them?
• How can I teach them complex timing w.r.t. an opponent if we don't first start with simple timing? Here I am glad that I am an amateur musician, and am even teaching number 2 son how to play piano. (I wish my piano teacher taught me what I'm passing on...) Here I want to rip my friggin hair out when I find people who have no rhythm, or who have never played an instrument. Holy cow!
  
  It isn't about being fast. God knows that speedy isn't my middle name. And yet... It's so much fun.
• How can I teach people about movement if we don't start moving in SOME direction?
• How can I get people to understand how this stuff works if we don't do sequences thousands and thousands of times so that they can ease into "tasting the hot sauce?" Ask my students.

This isn't about proving anyone else's journey as being deficient (to what end???) so much as it is a celebration of how much I have gained from my journey, and all those who have helped me along the way.

I do have to say however that I had my greatest enlightenment on all this via a Goju martial artist who taught me 10 yakusoku kumite and 9 bunkai kumite. The best way to describe what he - a former green beret - tried to achieve with us was la poésie pure. It's a concept in French literature that's difficult to translate. But if you want to get into contemporary vernacular, grab the Nike logo - just do it. You stop worrying about what "it" is, and begin to focus on the joy of doing "it." You sometimes intentionally strip literal meaning out of "it" (as in The Jabberwocky) so you can begin to focus on other elements of "it." 'Just do it a thousand times' was a favorite expression of one of Patrick McCarthy's teachers. The opportunity to explore, embellish, and experiment would come after the boredom long set it.

I will leave you with three experiences that may or may not mean anything to you. But they were interesting signs on my journey that helped me realize I was getting value from my time.

• One of the more rewarding experiences I had teaching Kyu and Dan kumite was working with "Tony." He was somewhere north of 315 pounds, and was one of the fastest and most graceful "big guys" I've ever worked with. Tony could dunk a basketball before he got a little bigger around the midsection. And with all his weight, he could roll and fall better than anyone I've ever seen.
  
  Tony had martial arts experience before coming to Uechi. Tony put his heart into doing things, and often would unintentionally hurt people. It happens... So I made Tony my personal project when it came time to teach these yakusoku kumite.
  
  One of the most interesting things to experience is having someone do "the wrong" technique when you're doing a prearranged sequence. How do you respond? And what happens when you put a little skin in that game? What happens when a "mistake" could cost you big time?
  
  I now spend lots of time working with people on these sequences. And as I do, I will take a target that someone gives me.
  
  What? You HIT me?
  
  I sure did! How come I got that in?
• I LOVE working with animals, partly because an animal is going to do what an animal is going to do. My Ridgeback is known to be a "stubborn" breed. They are that way because they are used to hunt lions. Those that listened too much to their masters when they were in the hunting zone became kitty food. Yum!
  
  My Ridgeback is powerful, fast, stubborn, and impulsive. I love him because of whom and what he is. My boys get frustrated with him at times because he's not an obedient, subservient Retriever. But they love him too. He's a cool dog for a couple of boys to have. And he sleeps in their beds at night. He is one of their "pack."
  
  Maverick has this compulsive habit, which I think is characteristic to this line if not the breed. If you get your face anywhere near his or if he really wants to show you how much he loves you, you are going to get hit with a flying kiss in the face. It's sweet... but I am careful when he gets around kids.
  
  One thing I have found myself doing with him is seeing the thing coming. It's almost lightning fast, but... You can see him loading his legs before the spring. And the next thing I know, my forearm is in his neck as he lunges up. And then... it completes a circle as I manipulate him back down to the ground.
  
  You people who know your lower brain physiology should appreciate that.
• Just the other day, one of my older women (a brown belt) was in a club. An obnoxious friend came up to her and grabbed her windpipe, and asked her "How's karate?" Without thinking, she did something I have been having my students do in their "taste the hot sauce" sessions. Her spear hand went right into his arm pit.
  
  He walked away, with pride hurt more than his physiology. He never knew what hit him, or why he reacted the way he did.
  
  Seisan bunkai anyone?

It’s like a finger, pointing at the moon. If you stare at the finger, you miss all the heavenly glory.

- Bruce Lee


Enjoy your journey.

- Bill

[Stryke]

Hey Bill can you point me to the current or even recent kumite threads , I missed them ?

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

your absolutely correct , that different folks need different approaches , and there are different necessitys of learning along the way .

But it becomes a shame when these simple drills become fundamental to the religion , stamping out diversity , and becoming the requirement for advancement and recognition , while imparting attribtes , some may see as detrimental .

but as you say to each there own , enjoying training is paramount

[Bill Glasheen]

Gary started one that's going pretty well. You should be aware of it, because you're part of it.

Waukee block fails .................

It starts with this post from Gary. And frankly he's done a wonderful job keeping the topic interesting and on track.

Having worked with many dan ranks over the years, it is frequently noticed that when drills are pushed to a high level of practice the waukee blocks reliability is truly tested.

For many have a false sense of confidence that this "circular block" by itself with work against incomming straight punches. However, when working with many talented dan ranks, it often falls short under real pressure.

While having pre-arranged drills serves a worthy purpose, the co-operative mind set, often lacks true realism in many when practicing. Distancing and timming, when utilized, may appear to be work well, however, when really attacked with intent to hit, explosive driving power is most difficult to "circle " block without the use of , palm heal (primary) and/or repositioning off center line attack.

In working even basic drills as #1 of dan kumite, or other, even the basic first attack will often land on center mass when one explodes with speed, power and intent.

***

- Bill

[Stryke]

apologies Bill my edit got in before your post .

I think everyone has done a good job of staing away from the kumites in that thread , and perhaps if there not to be discussed they should be left out of it ?

[Bill Glasheen]

apologies Bill my edit got in before your post .

Real time discussion!

I think everyone has done a good job of staing away from the kumites in that thread , and perhaps if there not to be discussed they should be left out of it ?

I don't understand. Why would anyone want to avoid discussing a fundamental part of Kanei Uechi's style?

To wit...

We asked a boxing trainer in Halifax about boxers ‘blocking’ punches_ ‘no such thing’ he responded.

Are our ‘blocking moves’ wrong in Uechi kata?

No. it is the way they are taught to be applied that is wrong the way I see it.

quote:
TRY DOING THAT with your wauke as soon as the 'attacker' is close enough and see what happens to him. The wauke (more than one thing) used offensively to fill space and disrupt or destroy structure and balance AS you wash over the opponent like a wave of nastiness is what this stuff is all about.

I prefer this method, although the K drills are necessary, as they exist, to get the student to familiarize with the ever changing applications in a combat situation and to feel the ‘crushing power’ of lines of force and directions the kata teaches_ so he can develop the pre-emption tactics once knowing what those forces feel like.

I have a very special application of the K drill that I introduced in Canada and it caught on like a firestorm and will be practiced from now on in that group.

Sounds good to me!

- Bill

[Stryke]

I don't understand. Why would anyone want to avoid discussing a fundamental part of Kanei Uechi's style?

you have a short memory Bill , folks have been run of the forums for discussing them , In fact I suspect a Uechi club that didnt do them wouldnt be able to participate in the IUKF.

In fact your so nervous your avoiding the thread . Youd rather sit back and infer

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

much more could be learnt by an open honest dialouge methinks ....

but Im sure we can resurrect that thread , but the current one is so much more informative and constructive without the need to resurrect such nonsense of some basic drills vs a differing concept , It really isnt the point , and if all you see is kumite bashing then what does that say about your perspective ?

[Stryke]

you have caramel peanut covered popcorn in America right ? , I think its your invention

[MikeK]

[maxwell ainley]

Hi Bill ,
Real fights are chaos,random,sometimes predictable ,and I think this is just what most fighters have faced .
Our uechi training must address this ,how this can be achieved is diverse.
Like lots of others who entered MA. I could fight ,i was already a fighter beforehand ,but could I fight using uechi principles and tactics ,thats a different deal ,how this is done is tactics in its own right .

[Bill Glasheen]

Hi Bill ,
Real fights are chaos,random,sometimes predictable ,and I think this is just what most fighters have faced .
Our uechi training must address this ,how this can be achieved is diverse.
Like lots of others who entered MA. I could fight ,i was already a fighter beforehand ,but could I fight using uechi principles and tactics ,thats a different deal ,how this is done is tactics in its own right .

That's an excellent point, Max.

I've been on God's earth long enough ( ) to have been in a few "real fights." And I've been in this business long enough to start recognizing what tools are useful for me as a teacher, and what aren't. And that's precisely the point of my post!

I couldn't do without these tools!

My Goju instructor who served his country via special forces (as a Green Beret) couldn't do without these tools! With his 10 yakusoku kumite and 9 bunkai kumite, he used them more than your average Uechi teacher. Over time, he became a choreographing machine. And for what it's worth, his teachers included a few notables such as Kimo Wall (also served his country) and Gosei Yamaguchi (whose father served the Imperial Japanese Army in China).

The BEST way to teach people about "real fighting?" Load them up in a van, drive them into downtown, drop them off in front of a pack of hoodlums, and tell them to yell a racial slur or something. Come back in half an hour and pick up your survivors. There are your real fighters.

Believe it or not, I know people who do that.

As a teacher, I know what I need to teach fighting. It's a long process, and no one "thing" is going to give me the whole package. Sanchin isn't it. Scenario training isn't it. Weight training isn't it. Sport fighting isn't it. Having them read good material isn't it. But string a whole bunch of things together, and your "David" begins to take shape.

As a teacher, I feel like that skulptor. I am visualizing my end product, and I grab for the tools I need. One of the things I need is a fixed partner format where people are doing just about anything. It is this scenario where I can begin to teach

• Getting off the line of force
• Recognizing and preempting a threat
• How to move in any number of directions with respect to an incoming threat
• How to use an "uke" as a point of contact and not as a "block" the way 99% of the karate world is using it. (Check out Inoue's list of precepts in his kobudo books. This is one of them - even with weapon in hand.)
• How to begin to think of circles as something other than a "block." (I have to start with SOME partner pattern...)
• How to get comfortable and familiar with someone taking a swat (or two, or three) at you so you can control and shape amygdale-driven flinch responses to an unexpected threat.
• Etc.

Put a skalpel in the hands of a layperson, and the patient dies. Make it available to a trainged surgeon, and (s)he will find a need for it.

I have my tools for creating "chaos,random,sometimes predictable" situations. One - for example - is my "barroom brawl" training. Another is "blind man kill." But if I'm not starting with a student who has some baseline training, then all I get is gross motor flinching and flailing. It's no different than if I brought them to a gymnasium and threw them on the floor to make them fall. Their God-given amygdale will make "something" happen. (Screw those broken wrists! )

They don't need me as a teacher to do that; they come with that when they walk in the door. My job is to improve and refine the process. And to get there, I've got a lot of work to do.

- Bill

[maxwell ainley]

Bill,

In various posts of the past ,discussion sometimes broke down due to our individual perspectives ,when there are many ways of making uechi work ,in areas of brutal violence.
I know and have met ,trained with characters who had a close relationship with violence ,but could not make uechi work for them [they wern't the tools for them ] .

Many tools or few ,can approach ,enter random uechi training,that can meet violence and chaos, but it takes time ,I have searched for short cuts to get to random ,are there any ? many say no .

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill,

In various posts of the past ,discussion sometimes broke down due to our individual perspectives ,when there are many ways of making uechi work ,in areas of brutal violence.

Well spoken, Max.

As the Chinese proverb goes, "There are many paths to the top of the mountain, but the view is always the same." We all know where we want to get, and there are a number of ways to get there. The breakdown can occur when one person cannot identify with another's path. There are "right" and "wrong" approaches, but... There are many approaches that get the job done.

I know and have met ,trained with characters who had a close relationship with violence ,but could not make uechi work for them [they wern't the tools for them ] .

Your statement is refreshing in its candor. How many salesmen of an idea would be so brutally honest about our limitations as teachers?

Many tools or few ,can approach ,enter random uechi training,that can meet violence and chaos, but it takes time ,I have searched for short cuts to get to random ,are there any ? many say no .

If we're talking about having the entire force continuum available to us, I believe there are short-er paths. But when you're talking about empty-hand (kara-te) methods alone, I see no short cuts. And this is true for many reasons.

Forget about tactics and techniques. Consider just the intimate nature of hand-to-hand violence. Whether with a knife or empty hand, the average person doesn't have what it takes to do what is necessary. (Grossman, On Killing) That's a big mental leap, and only operant conditioning is going to get the average individual over that hump.

I see no short cuts either, Max. But IMO, this is perhaps where traditional martial arts excel. There isn't an obsession with getting someone "combat ready" as soon as possible. Students are put in an environment where they learn to enjoy the process. And while they are having a good time, the foundation is built.

Once that foundation is there, it's much, much easier to go from TMA to self-defense.

As for the "random" nature of violence, well... This fascinates me as well, Max. I liken it to the difference between playing classical music vs. playing jazz. How many people can improvise with a musical instrument - while playing with others? Not many. How do you teach this? It isn't easy.

Could you build a house without a plan? Oye!

But do you know one thing I've noticed? Most if not all jazz musicians have absolutely mastered their fundamentals. Only then can they hope to take the big leap to improv.

- Bill

[MikeK]

As for the "random" nature of violence, well... This fascinates me as well, Max. I liken it to the difference between playing classical music vs. playing jazz. How many people can improvise with a musical instrument - while playing with others? Not many. How do you teach this? It isn't easy.
But do you know one thing I've noticed? Most if not all jazz musicians have absolutely mastered their fundamentals. Only then can they hope to take the big leap to improv.

True improvisation is hard to do and what you may think is improvisation really isn't. The best players are just better at making the familiar sound new. I've done a lot of playing in the past and met very few people that could truly improvise. Most just did their usual licks and runs which is fine for the usual I, IV,V or II, V, I, but IMO real improv happens when you're out where the buses don't run.
Sitting in with musicians who are levels way above you, walking out on a stage to jam and finding out that the guys in the band are tuned flat and not to 440 Hz, your instrument is missing two strings or out of tune, backing a performance artist where there are no rules at all except to do something interesting or you'll be ridiculed by a bunch of punkers.
Having some musical knowledge and technique could help you dig out, but doesn't stop you from freezing when you realize you're not in a good situation and the spot light is on you, After all, if you've frozen then everything else really doesn't matter.

To me that is the kind of improvisation we need to acquire that is closer to the kind we may face with real world violence, and the kind that I've rarely seen attempted within the confines of a school. You can't just move a student outside their comfort zones but sometimes you need to drop them off where they can't recognize their comfort zone. Not getting them to think outside the box but from time to time getting rid of the box all together.

Just an opinion.

[maxwell ainley]

Bill ,Mike.

Bill
"Could you build a house without a plan ".

Yes ,in hundreds of examples ,but no in thousands of other examples,i hope this relates to "Random" in M.A this means in lots of basic plans ,we Bricklayers can throw the plan away,we have got it of by heart.
A example; most parish churches were built to a standard template ,they the mason gang knew all the measure ,when to do this ,when to do the other ,to them it was childs play .now at random ,things get difficult ,the mason as loads of plans in his head and heart ,but at random he's thrown a wild card , he bows down , he needs to see the plans .

This contains many new elements of random not of a familiar nature ,I ,we have to bow down . But in a real senario of brutal violence ,we can't ask to see the plans I have to adapt [instictively ] faster than the speed of light ,or I have to by[time ]some how,create my own bit of chaos .

[maxwell ainley]

What I am saying on "random" is I know things ,but there is much more I don't know.

This I feel is why to progress ,we need to test ourselves and our well researched [plans ] in the areas of random and chaos ,but like Bill says there are no short cuts ,we may learn more from a specific teacher or a methodology ,or via cross training .

Violence and random can test our [plan or plans] at any time during a life times training ,and its not going to wait till someone as thousands of hrs practice in ,unlike our mason /or bricklayer who knew the plans of by heart .

What does this mean in training terms ?.