Where yakusoku and bunkai kumite should take us

[gary6dan]

The subject of “improvisation” is interesting and often not addressed. While many may feel the need to stay within their comfort zone, being the routine of pre-arranged drills and their programmed response to them, there is a need to develop ones ability to respond instinctively with whatever techniques or counter measures present themselves.

Even in something as basic as kyu-kumite, there are many opportunities to deviate in practice from the basic format. For many will continue to practice all pre-arranged drills at their basic level, believing that by simply adding speed and power to them, they are now advanced. To develop the ability to improvise, one must at some point become creative in closing, entering, controlling or countering at different points of the drill. As the pre-set format of kumite and bunkie are good in setting foundation, when the attacks become real, there is a need to quickly respond instinctively and improvise movements.

As in sparring which allows us opportunity to work on “instinctive” reaction, One must also see the same opportunities in real situations. Whereas many teach and practice these drills only in their basic format, possibly this is why some feel that pre-arranged drills, as in Bunkie and kumite’s don’t work and are ineffective ?

For many do struggle with improvising and deviating from basic format. As to perfect the basic drills in themselves are often challenging enough for many, it is difficult for them to do otherwise.

Just some additional thoughts on the subject ……….

Respectfully,

Gary S.

[2Green]

I'll set the musical analogies aside, as I have a whole philosophical rant (which you don't want to hear!), on how "learning music" relates to "learning MA", but ... regarding the drills, etc.;
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I think the usefulness of any given learning tool is related to the teacher's concept of what it is he/she is actually teaching, and therefore the drill's usefulness in conveying "which attributes" of that concept.

I like "learning to drive" as a better analogy:
If your driving instructor's concepts of "driving" is "operating a motor vehicle in accordance with the law" then he/she is hopefully going to have specific advice which emphasises that aspect, with drills/simulations to support the teaching of litigation-free driving.

If the teacher's concept of driving is " vehicle dynamics and handling", then hopefully the drills/ simulations will support THAT viewpoint, pehaps an ex-racer as a teacher.

If the teacher's concept is "becoming part of a mechanized social interaction", then likely the focus will be on communication, etc., and how the rules of the road work with that.

Point is: the usefulness of ANY given drill or exercise is determined by the teacher's concept of what the subject matter actually is, and therefore, the drills' usefulness in conveying that conceptual skill.

This, to my mind, is why these exercises are foundational to some teachers but not useful to others.

It's not about the exercises themselves, but rather, what part they play in conveying the teacher's concepts of what the subject matter is: -- and consequently, how these or ANY drills/simulations convey that given concept.

Pre-arranged work is pretty well unavoidable in a consentual learning environment so one person's drills are going to replace anothers', according to what specific attributes the teacher is focused on teaching.

In the example of "driving" all the different focuses are indeed oriented towards "learning to drive", as are the the Martial Arts applications oriented towards " Self Defense"" as a broad objective, but you can see how they vary in the teacher's concept of "real-world" application.

~N~

[gary6dan]

Quote:
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I think the usefulness of any given learning tool is related to the teacher's concept of what it is he/she is actually teaching, and therefore the drill's usefulness in conveying "which attributes" of that concept.



Point well made. As it is the instructor that sets the tone and gives meaning to drill, kata etc. Having worked with many different people, one finds that there are different views, opinions and applications to many movements. I am sure that music realtes to much of the same. Although, I do not claim to have any knowledge in that field.

While there are guidlines and format to follow in all dojo's, that organizations and/or associations require, these are set to have some uniforminty and structure to the body of members. The student should at advanced levels, be able to adapt variations and alternative movements while still being effecient in performing and demonstrating kumite and bunkie in their dan testing and class room practice according to guidlines.

As in kata, the movements are performed the same way in a constant strive of perfection. While there are many elements within kata, the movements do not vary. However, it is within the various applications of these movements that one should seek to understand. As there is more than one concept as to the applications and/or variations that gives one options against an attacker.

Gary S.

[JimHawkins]

As in kata, the movements are performed the same way in a constant strive of perfection. While there are many elements within kata, the movements do not vary. However, it is within the various applications of these movements that one should seek to understand. As there is more than one concept as to the applications and/or variations that gives one options against an attacker.

Train how you want to fight, because you will fight how you have trained..

Concepts are meaningless unless folks learn to apply them in a realistic manner against realistic resistance...

How much time do top level tennis players spend training tennis forms, doing cooperative tennis drills and talking tennis theory..?

[Bill Glasheen]

How much time do top level tennis players spend training tennis forms, doing cooperative tennis drills and talking tennis theory..?

I don't know tennis. But I do know basketball and baseball. And when it comes to these two sports, the answers are:

• Every single day of the season
• A LOT
• Before every single game
• Even during halftime or in-between innings.

I'd also argue that these two sports more closely resemble fighting in that more people are involved. It's not the same-old dueling concept which everyone's brain gets fixated on.

'Nuff said.

- Bill

[JimHawkins]

How much time do top level tennis players spend training tennis forms, doing cooperative tennis drills and talking tennis theory..?

I don't know tennis. But I do know basketball and baseball. And when it comes to these two sports, the answers are:

• Every single day of the season
• A LOT
• Before every single game
• Even during halftime or in-between innings.

I'd also argue that these two sports more closely resemble fighting in that more people are involved. It's not the same-old dueling concept which everyone's brain gets fixated on.

'Nuff said.

- Bill

Care to elaborate on the forms used, drills used and theory discussions undertaken?

Open skill athletes spend more time on actually doing the activity in question--any drills, 99% of the time directly refect the skills used in the game exactly how the skills are applied in the activity--exactly..

How much of what is in the k-drills are EXACTLY reflected with a 1 to 1 relationship as they are seen in fighting/sparring with skilled/resisting people and how much isnt? If you're going to contend that there is a 1 to 1 relationship then it should be easy to show a video of fully resistant sparring or fighting where this is reflected as such..

[Bill Glasheen]

Care to elaborate on the forms used, drills used and theory discussions undertaken?

Baseball:

• First baseman throws a ball to the 3rd baseman, shortstop, 2nd baseman. The end result is throwing the ball to first base. The routine finishes with the 3rd baseman throwing to the 1st baseman, after which he steps on the bag.
• Same routine as above, only a double play is practiced.
• Outfielders throw the ball back and forth to each other. Both the throwing and catching part is practiced.
• Pitcher throws to the catcher.
• Catcher practices throwing the ball to 2nd base after the pitcher throws.
• A relatively new exercise... Players practice reading the numbers written on tennis balls fired by them at 150 mph. The DH often will go downstairs in-between innings and sharpen his skills by doing this. (The goal is to learn to "read the spin" on a ball, which helps the person with being able to guess in which direction the ball will break.)
• The catcher spends a good amount of time going over each and every batter they will face that day. They have stats on zones of the strikezone and probability of being hit, which pitches they hit, what parts of the field they tend to hit the ball to, what injuries they have, etc. They generally know how they will pitch to each batter before they face him, and how the fielders will position themselves (depending upon the game situation). Some pitchers and catchers spend 2 to 3 time as much time on this as actually playing the game.
• Batters watch film of the pither throwing that day.
• Batters check out what parts of the plate the pitcher is throwing to. Don't believe me? Go on MLB.com some time. Every pitch is charted by speed of release, speed crossing the plate, place it crosses the strike zone (or not), angle of break, distance of break, difference between what gravity would do to the ball and what the forces of spin do to the ball, etc., etc. An entire database is constructed during the game, and even the fan can look at this. I often can tell in the 3rd inning whether or not a team's going to win based upon theses stats plus pitch count.

That's just baseball.

I know less about basketball, but I know enough.

• Players do layups in a drill before every game and at halftime.
• They practice set shots around the court before the game and at halftime.
• They practice the bounce pass, the chest pass, and the overhead pass with a partner every day.
• Guards do drills where they do a slalom around a line of chairs while dribbling the ball.

Check out this video.

Ultimate Pistol Pete Maravich MIX

Pistol Pete didn't come out of the womb dribbling, although it may seem that way. His dad, Press Maravich, was a coach. His dad gave him hours of drills to do every day when he was a kid. Pete would bounce the ball out the back of a car from the gym to home with his dad driving. He'd do hundreds of behind-the-back passes to a wall every day - on each side. Etc., etc., etc.

Check out the "no look" passes. Pete was the original. Magic Johnson and Larry Byrd came after him.

Check out on the video what Pete says about the number of hours he spends on drills every day.

Here's the thing. What Pete does isn't magic. I've gotten his videos for my son, and have sat through them all. Everything he does is broken down into basic principles of movement that a person is to drill every day. All the principles are pieced together on the court in real time, but only after tens of thousands of hours of practice off the floor.

Or... you can be a hack on the court like everyone else.

- Bill

[gary6dan]

Quote,

Posted by Jim:

How much of what is in the k-drills are EXACTLY reflected with a 1 to 1 relationship as they are seen in fighting/sparring with skilled/resisting people and how much isnt? If you're going to contend that there is a 1 to 1 relationship then it should be easy to show a video of fully resistant sparring or fighting where this is reflected as such..

Jim,

You make a good point here. As k-drills often are not reflected in observing skilled/resisting people. Although, I might contend that parts or elements of drills often are present. Meaning, shorter versions of movements that are not full or complete as in drill demonstration.

To Bills point, I do agree that continued practice of basic fundemental drills are essential in ones development to reactionary response, As in Van's postings discussing the "muscle memory" and "reactionary flinch response". It is the basic fundementals that I feel are essential and require repetitious practice in development of these things.

As in the art of competitive archery, it is within the elements of the form and repetitious practice that yield good scoring ability. While this is practiced in the "doing" of the art, the practice is seperate from the act of competitive shooting.

A student once stressed his game in golf having improvement from understand "centering" and good form in kata. As center base and/or fundemental basics are essensial in development and advancement.

Just my opinion and two cents.


Gary S.

[maxwell ainley]

We are heading back to the same old conflict of k drills instead of ,if you are ready moving onwards to random work .

[gary6dan]

posted by Max:

We are heading back to the same old conflict of k drills instead of ,if you are ready moving onwards to random work .


You are correct. As I believe that all aspects of our training have good and useful elements to them. Including k-drills. Certainly, not looking to debate the usefullness or validity of them.

Respectfully,

Gary S.

[JimHawkins]

posted by Max:

We are heading back to the same old conflict of k drills instead of ,if you are ready moving onwards to random work .

Then the onwards work should be on the test instead of dead drills..

I am not interested in going through another thousand page debate with Bill on the K-Drills but they are the staple of how many are trained and are what much later folks are tested on..

Gary..

Point is that whatever good there may be, are there also things present that are in opposition to the good? If there is no energy present, no connection, space eating, sticking, closing, offensive flinch training, and lots of passive moves, or “other”, etc, then IMO there are incongruities in the training.

If this material is only seen in bits and small microscopic pieces in real fighting then wouldn't it make sense to re-examine the bulk that is not seen and why folks are tested on this? Hard questions to ask when there is so much on the line, that has all to do with "modern tradition" and nothing to do with evolving the system and how it is taught and tested....

[gary6dan]

Posted by Jim,
Quote:

Gary..

Point is that whatever good there may be, are there also things present that are in opposition to the good? If there is no energy present, no connection, space eating, sticking, closing, offensive flinch training, and lots of passive moves, or “other”, etc, then IMO there are incongruities in the training.


There is always opposition in all things. As in "is the glass half empty or half full?" Certainly in the basic content of passive reponse and cooperative drills, there is a "defensive" position that retreats, deflects/blocks and performs the return movement. It is a "basic" drill taught for basic understanding. At that level, it serves no other purpose.

However, all of the elements that you mention, ie:energy, connection, space eating, sticking, closing etc. can be incorperated at another level. As I have done so in practice and teaching. By simply moving in, as opposed to retreat in the deflection/blocking movements, the closing, distrupting and redirecting of ones partners "energy" certainly provides much of the elements that you note.

As I believe that is what others were trying to point out on another thread that some thought I did not get ?

Also, as in all things, everything does not work in all situations. Example: In aikido, a basic wrist lock works well when grabbed or held by an opponent. Not well to a uechi/karate person who strikes and retracks their arms. Judo works well in close, not at distance. Grappling works well on the ground, not at striking range.

So, in sparring many things from drills may not work in their full capacity, however, in self defense situations, they
are tools to be utilized in the right situation. Just as the other things I mention. Just another view, possibly not agreed to by some.


Respectfully,

Gary s.

[Bill Glasheen]

I started to post something earlier, but got interrupted by a work day. Go figure.

As I learned early on in my training, there are 3 types of kumite:

1) Yakusoku kumite (prearranged fighting)

2) Bunkai kumite (analysis of kata fighting)

3) Jiyu kumite (freeform fighting)

This is a thread on the benefits of yakusoku and bukai kumite. It is NOT a thread on jiyu formats.

I didn't speak only of those of Uechi Ryu; I included the manifestation of the concept in Goju as well. It makes no sense to talk about the benefits of freeform work here when 1) I have more different kinds of jiyu drills in my school than most employ, and 2) I'm going to do the jiyu work anyway.

if you are ready moving onwards to random work

Here's a novel concept. I start freeform work early on - earlier than most. No, I don't do the "tournament" sparring stuff with the gloves, the headgear, the groin cup, the mouthpiece, and the look (of doom). With kids for example, I used to spend the end of every class with noodle fights (those 6 foot long styrofoam noodles) or "steal the bacon." These are random, freeform venues. They are important.

These exercises aren't fighting.

Tournament sparring isn't fighting.

I have always, always trained and taught in cycles. I tell people that when I am teaching kata, I am having them think of ways to use their movement. When in any jiyu format, I want them to think about the application of principles practiced in kata. And with me, yakusoku and bunkai kumite offer a bridge.

I have no problem if somebody doesn't like doing a drill. I hated history when I was in high school, and rarely did my work. But now I'm a student of history - because I get why it's important. Go figure...

Last time I checked, we have no perfect martial artists out there. We're all on a journey; none of us have arrived. NOBODY!

So when I am working with someone in one of these "advanced" learning formats, I inevitably see problems. And the more they are working in this random format, the more they practice and practice these problems until they are so ingrained that it's difficult to correct the problem. It is human nature. It is a human manifestation of entropy.

Enter a prearranged format. Isolate "the problem" in a format where unnecessary variability is removed. Work on it in the fixed format. Fight entropy. I correct "the problem" in the simple (even simplistic) prearranged format. I have them drill it and drill it (thousands of times) in a mindful manner until the new (desireable) pattern becomes mindless. And then we go back to the freeform or random format.

Repeat in endless iterations.

It's all important.

Why is any one specific prearranged format a "requirement" of a martial art? Because in order to communicate from dojo to dojo, we all need some kind of common language. Without it, we're just a bunch of cyber warriors from many directions. We have no common partner formats in which to START playing and experimenting. We are the Tower of Babel reincarnated.

The "traditional" art becomes the common meeting ground of the fitness buffs, the RBSD freaks, the girls who want to meet studly guys, those who one day may go off to war, those who want to have fun while exercising, etc., etc. We need SOME beginner set that everyone can do. It doesn't have to be the be-all, end-all of yakusoku, nor will it. Nothing can be that. We just need a starting point that is achievable by 90% of the people out there.

From there we go on to... many places.

Or not.

- Bill

[maxwell ainley]

Bill .
"
Were yakusoku kumite and bunkai kumite should take us"

I said "random work ".

Now the topic of the thread is ; A thread on the benefits of yakusoku kumite and bunkai kumite .

[Bill Glasheen]

Max

You're good. Your point is well taken.

You're assuming this is a linear progression. I'm arguing for process rather than outcome. And the process IMO is cyclic in nature. It's very similar to the cyclic CQI (Continuous Quality Improvement). Here's an example that I snagged offline with Google.



Here's another.



- Bill