very interesting!!!

[CARLOS SENSEI]

KARATE-DO \ KARATE-JUTSU
A comienzos del siglo XX, un grupo de entusiastas practicantes de okinawa, dirigidos por Anko Itozu, organizaron una campana, para introducir la disciplina en el sistema educativo de la isla como forma de ejercicio fisico. La cruzada de Itozu para modernizar el karate-jutsu, condujo a una revision radical de su practica.>At the beginning of XX century, a group of enthusiastic students from okinawa, directed by Anko Itosu, organized a campaign, for introducing the discipline in the Island's school system like a phisical exercise. The Itozu´s crusade for modernizing the karate-jutsu, derives to a radical revision in the way it was practiced.
Al quitar gran parte de lo que por entonces se creia demasiado peligroso para los escolares, el emfasis paso de la autodefensa a la forma fisica mediante la practica de katas en grupo, pero se descuido su bunkai. Al no ensenar los movimientos ocultos de autodefensa, las verdaderas intenciones de las katas ( por ejemplo dejar incapasitado, lisiar o incluso matar, en caso de ser necesario) se oscurecio tanto que se desarrollo una nueva tradicion.
>They took away much of what in that time was considered dangerous for students, so the the enfasis passed from "self-defense" to "a form of phisical exercise" involving group kata practice, but the bunkai was neglected. By not teaching the hidden moves of self-defense, the true intentions of the katas (for example to disable or to even kill, in case of being necessary) fell in the dark causing the development of a new tradition.
Este periodo radical de trasmicion represento la terminacion de un arte secreta de autodefensa que abrazaba el espiritualismo, y el nacimiento de un fenomeno recreativo.
>This radical transmision period, represent the end of a secret art of self-defense that embraced the spiritualism, and the birth of a recreational phenomenon.
Esta creacion fue introducida en las islas mayores de japon, donde finalmente se adapto a las fuerzas de la sociedad japonesa y evoluciono en una direccion absolutamente novedosa.
>This creation was introduced in the mayor Japan islands, where finally adapted to the japanese society and evolved in a new direction.
Yoshuiro Konishi, experto en jujitsu y kendo, quien habia estudiado Ryukyu kenpo Karate jutsu en okinawa, cuando lo comparaba con el judo y el kendo, describia al karate-jutsu como una disciplina incompleta.
>Yoshuiro Konishi, jujitsu and kendo expert, who had studied Ryukyu Kenpo Karate jutsu in Okinawa, when comparing it against judo and kendo, he describe karate-jutsu as an incomplete discipline.
Konishi fue en gran medida, el responsable de iniciar el movimiento de modernizacion que revoluciono el ryukyu kenpo karate jutsu, en las islas mayores de japon.
>Konishi was responsible, in great extent, of starting the modernization movement that revolutionized the ryukyu kenpo karate jutsu, in the mayor Japan islands.
Konishi decia con mucha franqueza que el karate moderno se habia forjado a semejanza del kendo y el judo. La antigua etica combativa del guerrero samurai, que estaba basada en diversas escuelas de ken- jutsu ( esgrima) y Ju- Jutsu ( pelea cuerpo a cuerpo) proporcionaron la infraestructura misma a partir de la que evoluciono el fenomeno del Budo Moderno.
>Konishi said that modern karate was constructed like kendo and judo. The ancient combative ethics of the samurai soldier, that was based uppon diferent schools of ken-jutsu and ju-jutsu that provided the same infrastructure from which the phenomenon of the Modern Budo evolved.
El karate no fue capaz de escapar a las omnipotentes fuerzas culturales japonesas.
>Karate was not able to escape from the Japanese cultural forces.
En contraste con el kendo y el judo, el movimiento del karate jutsu carecia de un uniforme de practica y no tenia un formato competitivo. Sus planes de ensenanza variaban en gran medida de un maestro a otro y no habia un standar organizado para evaluar con prescicion los variables grados de dominio.
>In contrast to kendo and judo, the karate jutsu movement, it lacked a practice uniform and have no sport format. Its teaching plans deferred in great measurement from master to master and was no organized stardard syllabus for evaluating with precision the different degrees of mastering.
Cuando lo comparaban con el kendo y el judo, la humilde disciplina del karate jutsu aparecia, para los standares japoneses, poco cultivada y falta de organizacion y unidad.
>Whe comparing it with judo and kendo, the humble discipline of karate jutsu appeared, for Japanese standadrs, little cultivated and lack of organization and unit.
Asi pues fue expuesto a la dura critica de oposicion, en los anos 20 y 30, cuando su ingreso a las islas mayores.
>So it was exposed to the hard critic of the opositors, in the 20s and 30s in his introduction to Japan.
Con el crecimiento del karate, la Dai Nipon Botokukai, entidad nacional japonesa encargada de las tradiciones marciales, estaba profundamente preocupada por las hostilidades entre los maestros de karate rivales, y su divulgacion, esto sumado a los desorganizados planes de ensenanza y a la ausencia de indumentaria formal , forzaron a la entidad a contemplar la situacion como perjudicial para el crecimiento y direccion del karate jutsu.
>With the growth of karate, the Dai Nipon Botokukai, japanese institution in charge of the martial traditions, was deeply worried about the hostilities between the rivals teachers of karate, and its spreading, this added to disorganized education plans and lack of formal practice uniform, forced to contemplate the situation like detrimental for the growth and direction of the karate jutsu.
Para que el karate jutsu fuera debidamente aceptado en las islas mayores la Botokukai exijio un plan unificado de ensenanza , un standar coherente de evaluacion de dominio, la adopcion del sistema de Dan-Kyu de Jigoro Kano y el desarrollo de un formato competitivo.
>For karate to be properly accepted in the islands, Butokukai demanded a unified plan of education, coherent standard of evaluation, the adoption of the system of Dan-Kyu like Jigoro Kano´s and the development of a competitive format
No menos exigente fueron las poderosas fuerzas del nacionalismo japones con su sentimiento anti chino, exijiendo cambiar los ideogramas a fin de transformar el Karate- jutsu en Karate- do. Para acercarlo asi al Ken-Do y al Ju- Do.
>Not less demanding were the powerful forces of the Japanese nationalism with its anti-Chinese feeling , demanding to change ideogramas in order to transform the Karate-jutsu into Karate-do. In order to approach it the Ken-Do and the Ju-Do.
el subfijo Do, significa via o camino o senda, el Jutsu, significa Arte o Ciencia.
>the Do subfixed, means way or footpath, the Jutsu, means Art or Science.
Aunque el nuevo termino no fue aceptado en okinawa hasta 1936, la botokukai lo acepto como oficial en 1933.
>Although the new term was not accepted in okinawa until 1936, botokukai accepted it like official in 1933.
Revisando esta historia, pregunto
que piensan que estamos aprendiendo KARATE-DO O KARATE-JUTSU ?
Nuestros sentimientos son mas cercanos al Do Japones ( camino o senda) hoy enfocado hacia el deporte, o hacia el Jutsu ( arte o ciencia)
Reviewing this history, I ask that they think that we are learning Karate-do Or Karate-jutsu? Our feelings are but near the Do Japones (way or footpath) today focused towards the sport, or the Jutsu (art or science)

[Bill Glasheen]

This is interesting.

I'm not sure that all the changes here are bad.

• On the one hand, self-defense is de-emphasized in favor of an activity that stresses physical fitness. Well... Good fitness and the ability to practice self-defense in my opinion go hand-in-hand. So maybe that's not so bad. Spend lots of time tempering the body like the way you spend lots of time making a good katana. When the blade is ready, the applications will fall right out.
• On the other hand... I can't say that I disagree with some of the criticisms from mainland Japan. Good teaching standards are good teaching standards. If self-defense information was being passed down haphazardly from generation to generation, then how can we really know that teaching methods were effective? God knows we find it easy enough to criticize fellow martial artists in an age where martial information flows freely. How could we expect a society not disciplined in educational standards to keep the quality of instruction high?

In short, I'm not ready to condemn what came out of all this as being a lesser art. The truth is no matter what the era, there are good teachers and bad teachers. There are relatively complete fighting arts and then there are people who pick up techniques in a haphazard fashion. There are those that enjoy competition and those who train to kill.

In my opinion, Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

- Bill

[Stryke]

remove the function and focus on form and standardisation .

I thought you liked Jazz Bill

sounds like you prefer the scales forget the music .

yeah it`s an art that just happens to have some moves that may be used for self defence .....

priceless .....

yeah yeah learn the scales and then progress to Jazz ... YAWN

rhetoric , it is what it is .

Remove the martial from martial arts , and it`s worse as a martial art

maybe not worse , maybe just different , but it is now something else .

[JimHawkins]

In short, I'm not ready to condemn what came out of all this as being a lesser art.

I'd love to get deep into this but...

The truth is no matter what the era, there are good teachers and bad teachers. There are relatively complete fighting arts and then there are people who pick up techniques in a haphazard fashion.

The truth as I see it is--going back quite a ways but not all the way back..

TMA are in trouble IMO.. But we have to realize the intention and nature of what TMAs are and where they came from and why.

Many of the problems today with TMA stem from the following:

1. These arts were never intended for the public.

2. No one intended you to learn all of the art, unless the master was your Dad.. (now apply this over several generations and do the math.. The result is a MA form of that old children's game 'telephone'.)

3. Bits and pieces were intentionally passed as incomplete and incorrect, and intentionally so to you if the "teacher" was not your Dad or equivalent..

4. 95% of the information publicly available now is made up of the above.

5. Since TMA have been a business (quite a while) there has been various levels of omission and obfuscation of the original art's content--applies to ALL TMA.


One of the keys is to do serious research.. That may well mean training with a variety of different teachers and styles, especially those that are interconnected, related and/or from the same geographical area. Generally, the further you get from the source the more watered down is the content. Of course this is the basis traditionally for good lineage and the further up you go the better.

Folks, especially leaders in TMA organizations need to take a long look at what they are teaching, re-evaluate and do the research. Take a long look at modern thought as well as getting a real handle on the original intent/method of the style or system--and how it all fits together functionally.. If it can't be clearly articulated in specifics --it's missing.

Folks must be willing to change and adapt these arts to a new modern standard that understands the best of the old core and fill what may well be missing from a modern standpoint. If the style/system is weak at the core and not combat worthy--whatever art--is destined to die an ugly and slow death.

[Stryke]

Good post Jim .

Really a no brainer

[Van Canna]

I also agree with Jim’s post.

The biggest hurdle to overcome here…is the one well presented by Rory’s book…in the ‘priests of Mars’ introduction…e.g., you wear a black belt …you are seen…and possibly believe you are an expert on violence.

Delusion is very common here as to who’s who.

The simple truth is that many of these experts, these priests of Mars, have no experience with violence. Very, very few have experienced enough to critically look at what they have been taught and what they are teaching, and separate the myth from reality.

Part of understanding violence is strategy and tactical thinking to implement the strategy as he points out.

Yet how many examples have we seen on these pages of a total lack of understanding of the above?

And where are the strategy and the tactical in most TMA training?

How to define them and who’s to do it?

[cxt]

Jim

Excellent post!

I agree almost 100%...almost

I think people--like the first poster--often get to caught up in the whole pedigree thing.

People with only the bits and pieces of an art seem to be able to use it with good effect all the time.

(Which I guess would go back to why exactly someone is training in the first place.)

[Van Canna]

People with only the bits and pieces of an art seem to be able to use it with good effect all the time.

Here we want to be careful_

The nature of violent attacks is as diversified as it can get.

So when we say good effect all the time, it helps to define those terms in the context of types of attacks, number of opponents, weapons wielded by attackers and so on.

[Bill Glasheen]

Sorry, guys, but I maintain my stance here.

Does anyone here want to claim they have a greater corner of the truth on violence than do The United States Marine Corp?

The MCMAP has a strong foundation in... Traditional Martial Arts. I know... one of my students is an MCMAP black belt. And there aren't many of them out there.

One day when he was teaching in our gym, a MCMAP participant who wasn't trained in TMA saw Rich teaching one of my classes. Rich was teaching ukemi. After it was all over, the individual scolded Rich for "teaching MCMAP secrets." Nope... it was a typical Uechi Ryu karate class in our gym.

We have more than a couple of TMA bashers who frequent these forums. Fine... But be careful about overextending the grand conspiracy theories. Because I for one am not willing to claim that the Marines don't know what they are doing. They're the real deal. And their training (to kill) has a strong foundation in 3 or so traditional martial arts. And... A MCMAP practitioner is encouraged to take up a traditional martial art - on a permanent basis.

I thought you liked Jazz Bill

sounds like you prefer the scales forget the music .

yeah it`s an art that just happens to have some moves that may be used for self defence .....

priceless .....

I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bath water. The Marines obviously don't either, and they are professional warriors.

You can't play Jazz until you have mastered the fundamentals. And I cannot overemphasize that. Jazz musicians are what they are because they can run circles around those who make a living reading sheet music - doing nothing more than the basics.

You can't be a warrior with just traditional martial arts training. But good traditional martial arts have most of the important ingredients you need to make a fine warrior. The difference between those who become professionals and those who don't care to kill is all about fleshing out the skeleton.

On a personal note... I object to the practice of focusing on the shortcomings of others. Rather I'd prefer people emphasize what good things exist in others, and then tell us what they'd do to bring it to the next level.

We're all ears, guys!

Off of soap box...

- Bill

[Van Canna]

You can't be a warrior with just traditional martial arts training. But good traditional martial arts have most of the important ingredients you need to make a fine warrior. The difference between those who become professionals and those who don't care to kill is all about fleshing out the skeleton.

Agree 100%....

[cxt]

Van

Absolutley.

I just always get a little nervous about these kinds of posts/dicussions...they often seem to end up (or start) with someone proclaiming how "they" have the "secret real teachings" and "you guys" or "those guys" don't so "neener neener neerer".

The first article reads very much like that to me.......someone trying to establish a supposed lack in japanese karate....along with a some tilted analysis, spotty reasoning and out of context quotes to support said position.

When I said "good effect" I was referring to all those people that don't train in whatever style/person is being held out as being somehow the "one true teaching" or some such claim.

Sure there are good teachers and bad teachers and good methods and poor methods.....I just don't think that anybody/any given "style" has a monopoly on either the "truth" or effective training.

Could be wrong of course.

[jorvik]

Quote
"Does anyone here want to claim they have a greater corner of the truth on violence than do The United States Marine Corp? "

What about those two guys who murdered the marine on leave from Iraq?

[Van Canna]

Absolutely.

I just always get a little nervous about these kinds of posts/dicussions...they often seem to end up (or start) with someone proclaiming how "they" have the "secret real teachings " and "you guys" or "those guys" don't so "neener neener neerer".

Right on CXT.

Same old story…e.g., your knowledge is incomplete because the masters ‘held back’ the ‘real art’ from you…..he only gave the secrets to his son.

You remember the recent ‘shite’ storm similar expressions by Darin created on my forum.

Master Uechi, the son of Kanbun Uechi, never went on record with any of this BS.

He said the real secret was hard work. And here is the problem …people just don’t want to work and put in the time.

And even after they do that, they are still incomplete as to their knowledge of real world violence as Rory points out.

Ray brings this home with his post

What about those two guys who murdered the marine on leave from Iraq?

Violence is very insidious in its Hydra likeness…

[Stryke]

Bill you miss the entire point , the marines train to fight !!

they fill the gaps In efficeincy , the arent pursuing some school kid version .

[TSDguy]

I disagree with Jim and think I see what Bill is getting at. I've said before I don't believe in some magic hidden technique that is only passed down to those who have defeated a worthy opponent in mortal kombat. That's BS. Anything you need to know about fighting comes from those that fight. The marines know more about fighting than some guy's dad ever did.

Furthermore, people are willing to teach this stuff. SPEAR and whatnot... And then there is the whole KISS.