very interesting!!!

Laird2 · Post by **Laird2** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:43 am

Marcus your archives are impressive one day you must let me peak at your hard drive.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:46 am

Hey Laird I`m a general learner , so i got to make sure I archive the specifics for accuracy .

Yeah and nice conditioning clip , love the use of supplemental strengthening as part of karate !!

CARLOS SENSEI · Post by **CARLOS SENSEI** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:51 am

that is what we saw?
karate do?
karate jutsu?

CARLOS SENSEI · Post by **CARLOS SENSEI** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:55 am

I wonder, is prepared in this way to being a good student?

or to defend his life?

Laird2 · Post by **Laird2** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:09 am

What we saw was a very skilled martial artist demonstrating conditioning.

Is it Do or is it Jutsu? Well I hate hanging labels on things but if I were to call it anything I'd call it 1960 Uechi...Kanei's Uechi. Which I believe was called Uechi-ryu Karate-do.

Do I think it's the original ryu without dilution...no.

Do I think this sensei can use the system in a martial manner...yes of that I have little doubt.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:14 am

Carlos , I think it`s just a part of one persons training .

I dont think it`s the answer , and its not a fighting method in itself , but physical preparation is always an advantage .

My methods and approach would vary , but we would be training for the same thing .

I think far more important is what you do , power , targeting and closing , a hollistic veiw to martial arts , mind body , spirit , all in regards to being martial .

physical mental , spiritual , but not without the challenge , and that is real violence

there is plenty of do in karate-jutsu IMHO

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:32 am

I think many of us here have bought, have read, will buy, will read Rory’s book.

Here is something of interest

Martial arts and martial artists often try to do it all. They teach self defense and sparring and street fighting and fitness, and personal development, as if they were the same thing. They aren’t even related. Very, very different things get lumped under the general heading of ‘violence’-

Some of you will recall that over the years I have asked time and again for your definition of ‘self defense’ ….and of your ‘superior knowledge of secrets and techniques’ as your self defense against whom and what.

The question always got swept, one way or another, under the ‘priest’s robe’ …OK.

So now comes the definition of ‘Self defense’ from an ‘expert’ in violence.

Oh…there goes Van again with his experts.

Anyone guess who this might be?

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:43 am

I just spoke with Rory this evening. He's finishing up some training here in Virginia. Off to Iraq for a year to teach their prison people how to manage prisoners and stay off CNN.

Good man, Rory. Think positive thoughts for him this year.

- Bill

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:49 am

Rory is the real deal....thoughts of him have and always will be very positive from all of us, I am sure.

Iraq has the right man for the job. We know God will keep him safe.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:55 am

Laird2 wrote:
Bill puts the marines and the military up as the pinnacle of martial training. I think your wrong Bill. I couldn’t fight my way out of a sack when I was in the military. I got about 40 hours training. Given the time in training I can’t picture the average marine as an exceptional skilled fighter. But I am impressed with the evolution of training. This is light years ahead of the training I received. Now I spend many years living in and around military bases as my father put in 32 years. I spend my fair share of time in bars on and off base. Saw my fair share of bar fights. I got in a couple as well. Played lacrosse and hockey and took the gloves off with a few military types…Funny but they just fought like all the other blokes. They didn’t appear as a group to be even above average in fighting skills.

However if you want someone to blow a hole in something…these are the guys who will get it done. Their profession is about brining ordinance to target Bill. And they are expert at it. But they are not the elite of the pugilist world as some would portray them. (No disrespect to anyone in uniform intended)

I was speaking specifically about the Marine Corp Martial Arts Program.

It's the real deal, Laird. This isn't some 6-week boot camp. They train for years, and they train for keeps. They do the entire force continuum.

Perhaps you aren't familiar with what the program is about.

The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP) was officially created by MCO 1550.54 as a "revolutionary step in the development of martial arts skills for Marines and replaces all other close-combat related systems preceding its introduction."[2] MCMAP comes from an evolution dating back to the creation of the Marine Corps, beginning with the martial abilities of Marine boarding parties, who often had to rely on bayonet and sword techniques.

During World War I these bayonet techniques were supplemented with unarmed combat techniques, which often proved useful in trench warfare. After World War I and before World War II, Major Anthony J. Biddle began the creation of standardized bayonet and close combat techniques based on boxing, wrestling, and fencing. Also during this period, Captains W.M. Greene and Samuel B. Griffith learned martial arts techniques from Chinese American Marines and brought this knowledge to other Marines throughout the Marine Corps.

In 1956, at Marine Corps Recruit Depot, San Diego, Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Hayward (captain of the Judo team at MCRD) made Gunnery Sergeant Bill Miller the new Non-Commissioned Officer in Charge of Hand-To-Hand Combat. Miller was ordered to develop a new curriculum that a 110 or a 210 pound Marine could use to quickly kill the enemy. Miller created the program from various Martial Arts styles such as Okinawan Karate, Judo, and Jujutsu. Every Marine recruit that went through MCRD was instructed in Miller’s Combat Curriculum. This also included Special Forces from all branches of the military and civilian entities. Later in 2001, retired Gunnery Sergeant, Bill Miller was awarded the Black Belt Emeritus “…for pioneering Martial Arts in the United States Marine Corps..."

Eventually these different techniques evolved into the LINE System in the early 1980s. Later, the system was found to be lacking in flexibility and techniques for use in situations that did not require lethal force, such as peacekeeping operations. The Marine Corps began searching for a more effective system. The result was the Marine Corps Close Combat training Program implemented in 1997-1999. MCMAP, which was finally implemented as part of the CMC's initiative of the summer of 2000. General Jones assigned LtCol George Bristol and MGySgt Cardo Urso, with almost 70 years of martial arts experience between them, to establish the MCMAP curriculum to be taught at the Martial Arts Center of Excellence (MACE).

There's a pretty extensive article about it in Wikipedia.

- Bill

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:08 am

Laird posted the wiki link two pages back Bill

the marine stuff is just a sideshow to the real thread , about wether the intent and efficacy of traditional martial arts has changed focus .

Marines are Marines

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:22 am

Stryke wrote:
Laird posted the wiki link two pages back Bill

His comments didn't reflect an understanding of the level of training they engage in.

Stryke wrote:
the marine stuff is just a sideshow to the real thread , about wether the intent and efficacy of traditional martial arts has changed focus .

I brought up the MCMAP because the core of their empty-hand arts is traditional martial arts. They breathe life into TMA, and put it to good use.

My point? It isn't the art; it's the artist. It's what you do with the material right there in front of you. There's absolutely no excuse today. People have all the resources they need about them to take any half-decent TMA and apply it in whatever fashion they choose. So in the end, it's a matter of choice and not a matter of anything lacking in TMA.

Stryke wrote:
Marines are Marines

To their credit, and to a fault.

Nothing like them.

- Bill

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:25 am

My point? It isn't the art; it's the artist. It's what you do with the material right there in front of you.

There's absolutely no excuse today. People have all the resources they need about them to take any half-decent TMA and apply it in whatever fashion they choose.

So in the end, it's a matter of choice and not a matter of anything lacking in TMA.

I absolutley agree Bill , there is no reason anyone should regard TMA as ineffective , only the training , something folk have been saying for years .

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:31 am

His comments didn't reflect an understanding of the level of training they engage in.

weve all discussed the MCMAP before , the hours spent training hand to hand skills specifically arent overwhelming compared to a twenty year in martial artist , why they would be better is not a question of technique surely ?

What I see is this... The really young Marines are getting a great confidence boost in basic training. The tough street kids are getting discipline added to their fighting and the not so tough kids are getting really good basic skills to build on. All in all, 27 hours of martial arts crammed into an already tough schedule does not make great martiail artists. However, it gives them attitude and a bigger box of tools to draw from in combat.

The Marines encourage everyone to continue to broaden their ma skillset and this is where the benefit comes in. The USMC has some serious mixed martial artists now. And they exist at all rank levels in the Corps.

From Uechis own MCMAP expert Rich Castanet

Heres some old threads Bill if you want to restart it/add to it , or any are interested .

http://uechi-ryu.com/forums/viewtopic.p ... d232df64b8

http://uechi-ryu.com/forums/viewtopic.p ... 4b8#166589

http://uechi-ryu.com/forums/viewtopic.p ... d232df64b8

http://uechi-ryu.com/forums/viewtopic.p ... 4b8#154065[/quote]

Laird2 · Post by **Laird2** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:03 am

Ohh I see you are back to the good old you don’t understand posturing. What’s next strawman arguments. Well Bill, you got the PHD, so I know you can do the math.
-------------------------

The program uses an advancement system of colored belts similar to that of most martial arts. The different levels of belts are:
Tan belt, the lowest color belt and conducted during entry level training, signifies the basic understanding of the mental, physical, and character disciplines. It is the minimum requirement of all Marines with a training time of 27.5 hours and has no prerequisites. Recruits receive these belts after completion of a practical application test on all of the basic techniques of the Tan Belt.
Gray belt is the second belt attained after 46 hours of training. It signifies an intermediate understanding of the basic disciplines. The prerequisites for this belt are as follows: The Marine must complete Fundamentals of Marine Corps Leadership MCI, and most instructors will require a report be completed on The Marine Raiders.
Green belt is the third belt, requiring 54.9 hours of training. This belt signifies understanding of the intermediate fundamentals of the different disciplines. This is the first belt level in which one can be a MAI (Martial Arts Instructor) and can teach tan through green techniques with the power to award the appropriate belt. The prerequisites for this belt include a recommendation from reporting senior, and to be an instructor requires the Marine to be a Lance Corporal or higher.
Brown Belt is the fourth belt level requiring 64.9 hours of training. It introduces Marines to the advanced fundamentals of each discipline. In addition, as with green belts, they may be certified as MAIs and teach tan through green techniques. Prerequisites for this belt include recommendation of reporting senior, rank of Corporal or higher (able to waiver to LCpl), and appropriate PMEs completed for rank (Such as Corporal's Course).
Black belt 1st degree is the highest belt color and requires 71.5 hours of supervised training. It signifies knowledge of the advanced fundamentals of the different disciplines. A 1st degree black belt may teach fundamentals from tan to brown belt, and a MAI may award the appropriate belt. In addition, they can also be a MAIT (Martial arts Instructor Trainer) which authorizes them to teach tan through black belt 1st degree and award the appropriate belt. Prerequisites include recommendation of reporting senior, rank of Sergeant or above, and appropriate level of PME completed (Such as Sergeant's Course.)
-----------------------------------------------------
I don’t undderstand so good but I reconit tabe prutty near around about 265 hours of learnin.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s not a lot of time when you consider it covers; ground fighting, throws, chokes, subs, restraints, striking, chemical deterrents, impact weapons, edged weapons, retention, disarms, bayonet etc. That’s a lot of material but actually there is more.

Tan Belt
The tan belt syllabus focuses on the development of the basics of armed and unarmed combat. Students start with the Basic Warrior Stance and break-falls are taught for safety, then move to:

Marines practice ground fighting in the rain.
basic punches, uppercuts, and hooks
basic upper-body strikes, including the eye gouge, hammer fists, and elbow strikes
basic lower-body strikes, including kicks, knee strikes, and stomps
bayonet techniques
basic chokes and throws
counters to strikes, chokes, and holds
basic unarmed restraints and armed manipulations
basic knife techniques
basic weapons of opportunity
Students must prove proficiency with 80% of 50 techniques to pass and earn their belt. The tan belt syllabus is part of The Basic School and recruit training curriculum.
[edit] Gray Belt

Marines practice throws.
The gray belt syllabus expands on the basic techniques with:
intermediate bayonet techniques
intermediate upper-body strikes including knife-hands (karate chops) and elbow strikes
intermediate lower-body strikes including kicks, knee strikes, and stomps
intermediate chokes and throws
counters to strikes, chokes, and holds
intermediate unarmed restraints and armed manipulations
intermediate knife techniques
basic ground fighting
basic nonlethal baton techniques
intermediate weapons of opportunity
[edit] Green Belt
The Green belt technique shifts focus from defensive to offensive techniques with:
intermediate bayonet techniques
muscle gouging
intermediate chokes and throws
counters to strikes
intermediate unarmed manipulation
intermediate ground fighting
intermediate nonlethal baton techniques
advanced weapons of opportunity
[edit] Brown Belt

Marines practice bayonet techniques.
advanced bayonet techniques
advanced ground fighting and chokes
advanced throws
unarmed vs. hand held weapons
firearm retention
firearm disarmament
advanced knife techniques
advanced nonlethal baton techniques
[edit] Black Belt 1st Degree
advanced bayonet techniques
advanced chokes, holds, and throws
advanced ground fighting
basic counter firearm techniques
advanced upper-body strikes, including strikes and smashes
advanced knife techniques
pressure points
improvised weapons
[edit] Black Belt 2nd Degree
rifle vs. rifle
short weapon vs. rifle
unarmed vs. rifle

Now Georges Black Belt Test Guide puts an average student with 265 hours of training at about green belt. As I understand the material would only be striking/ stand up type work. So are Georges standards higher than the marines?

Or is George correct when he recommends going elsewhere to learn to fight? Tough questions! Maybe you are just teaching exercises.

Bill you really expect me to believe that in 265 hours these men are highly skilled in all of these requirements…experts? How many skills Bill…count them.

https://download.yousendit.com/F480925C4843F089
This is a more realistic statement Bill!

Actually in the MCAP program they teach ground first because it takes a long time to learn standup.

In the army training continues forever. Not just in Basic. What does an army do when they are not fighting…they train.

However the only guys in the regiment I thought were “experts” were the sergeants who taught it. The skill sets were too diverse for anyone to become an expert in the time allotted.

Now lets just agree to disagree or possibly start another thread on military training this is hijacking an interesting thread. But if you do let us keep things in perspective Bill, your student is the subject matter expert not you.

You’ve never walked the walk so how about you stop talking down to some one who has. Please loose the pompous attitude or debate by yourself. Not interested in any of your you don’t understand BS.

Can we now get back to discussing the impact of introducing karate to public schools in the 1930’s.

very interesting!!!

Not surprised