very interesting!!!

[JimHawkins]

I would sugest however that there is nothing disconnected about training to understand kata and utilize the techniques of one's system.

I won't get into 'training to understand'.....

The classical disconnect to which I refer is training one way--whatever that is--whatever moves, etc, that involves..
Then when actually performing the activity (sparring/fighting) the same tools, techniques and movements either radically change or disappear altogether..

This I see in Jorvik's comments, which I see folks often do, train all these cool kata but then end up fighting more like a kick boxer, etc, or are even instructed to do so...

As far as training I see training tools, concepts and so on in an alive manner superior to training isolated moves or applications--where there is no before and after, just the single action (sun sao) or technique trained alone.

[jorvik]

There is also the problem of comparing apples and pears ...something that is good for the street may not be good for MMa tournements. On Rory's blog there is some very good stuff which covers this
the classical X block is very good in the street but useless for competition, when I read this I realised that one of the classical Koryo systems that I had practised made extensive use of this technique, it was used to capture a punch or kick and then would transition into a normal block/parry/control
used in conjunction with a blow to the temple it becomes deadly, we are too conditioned toi think about sparring, rather than think i terms of a single blow knockout ( and I don't just mean a punch here).........and another thing from Rory's blog he says sensitivity drills take a very long time to produce even very small returns,and I agree with this also, but such skills can win a fight in an instant. A good friend of mine who is an MMA fighter and a Chunner easilt parried and controlled a guy in a bar room attack......................so I guess at the end of the day it gets down to the skills that you are training and how you use them and importantly the timeing and time frame.

[JimHawkins]

he says sensitivity drills take a very long time to produce even very small returns

Not sure I would agree here..

It depends on what you're trying to train..

Let's keep in mind that this applies to wrestling as well..

If you are trying to train a whole bunch of techniques then yes it's true--it will take a lifetime and it does..

If however we are talking basics and you train them realistically I see training through feel to be faster than other methods.. Very simply more neurons are firing in the brain and IMO the body adapts to feel better than sight.. Moreover when in close feel is the deal..

[jorvik]

Well I think you know of the difficulties I have encountered trying to learn "sticking hands"
but I'm think in terms of the old Chinese masters of Tai-Chi who could sense everything with a simple touch and know exactly where the weakest point of balance was in his opponent, and these guys train everyday for years..but it's true of grappling as well and even Aikido to some extent

[JimHawkins]

Well I think you know of the difficulties I have encountered trying to learn "sticking hands"

I know it's tough to find good teachers..

The problem is that folks are training the wrong stuff in WCK too often.. Training to stick, training to play slap happy games when the real goal has nothing to do with this kind of stuff..

This is the key in learning anything like this.. Understanding the core objective and methodology is critical and when that is missing the whole game changes--really what this thread is about..

[CARLOS SENSEI]

OKINAWA KARATE DO KATA & BUNKAI:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3UFCMcd ... re=related


JAPAN KARATE DO KATA & BUNKAI:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4djPi1_aMfo

[JimHawkins]

I'll just toss this out there and see what happens.... For better or worse..

In Chinese MA terms the moves in those demos are called Long Bridge moves.. That means that you are applying the technique from outside and entering...

The question is where is the short bridge work?

Short bridge is inside range, close quarter breath smelling range.. No...it's not the same as entering into close range..

It's what happens when your entering move fails.. When your entering move fails it often does so in sparring or fighting because the opponent doesn't just stand there and let you do your move.. Instead you are faced with resistance and counterattacks. When this "clash" happens inside in CMA terms it's called short bridge...

So my question is: Where is the short bridge training in these styles?

[RA Miller]

.and another thing from Rory's blog he says sensitivity drills take a very long time to produce even very small returns,

Not quite what I meant.

In sensitivity drills, whether it is chi-sao or blindfolded infighting or aspects of judo randori, you spend quite a bit of time on the drill. Sometimes minutes. This time is what grows the skill.

But when it is <i>applied </i> you have to be able to get and use the information in a fraction of a second. It's not a small gain by most measures, but it is learning how to exploit a very small piece of time.

Clearer?

[JimHawkins]

But when it is <i>applied </i> you have to be able to get and use the information in a fraction of a second. It's not a small gain by most measures, but it is learning how to exploit a very small piece of time.

Very true..

Which is why in drilling ChiSao the initial contact or rolling is only a precursor to the action or attempt to penetrate--the attack..

It's when the focus on sticking--chasing hands--takes the focus away from attacking the line (not sticking) that training objectives get confused and training results in a misunderstanding of how to apply the skills..

In other words we do sticking to train how not to stick, and rather get to the center with continuity and against resistance.. Once the exchange is complete, rinse repeat..

[jorvik]

Quote
"Not quite what I meant"
Sorry my bad

[cxt]

Ok

Watched both clips and other than being defferent in terms of what/how they go about what they are doing....I see no reason to view one set as anything "more" than that.....just a different approach.

And that is if those folks ....those individuals can be assumed as being represetnative of each and every person in thier school--let alone their respective "styles."

Also pretty safe to say that few of us are really on the level of either of the people in the youtube clips.

[JimHawkins]

Also pretty safe to say that few of us are really on the level of either of the people in the youtube clips.

Sorry, JMO, but no matter how crisp and nicely performed a no contact choreographed attack/defense move is done it speaks little to qualify "level".

Real skill IMO is how you use your stuff when it's alive, unrehearsed and amid resistance..

[Bill Glasheen]

Yes, I agree TMA has lost some of its mistique, and many alpha males along with it. But that's probably not all bad.

TMA may well have lost some mystique but that's only because it's lost some of what it once was--effectiveness..

I couldn't disagree more, Jim. You are absolutely, 100%, unequivocally wrong here.

The mistique is gone because the scientists came in and debunked the chi crap. That is a good thing. On the very same Discovery special on martial arts, a chi-ster is shown not to be able to KO a skeptic with his no-touch voodoo. Dillman gets on and tries to explain that it has to do with one toe being up and another down, or the tongue not on the roof of the mouth.

We can't get rid of this kind of total bullcrap any faster. When you hear this stuff, run for the door. If we lose 90% of our students because we don't do this garbage for the public, that IMO is a very, very good thing. If the bad guy doesn't believe my voodoo, I am in a whole heap of trouble.

One very good thing about the MMA ring is that a lot of the foo foo chi-ster Chinese martial artists got shown up as paper tigers. In the end, good strikers and good grapplers won. Look, ma, no magic! Now we can all settle down and get to work on real martial arts.

As for the shortcomings of MMA... It really can't quite match the uncontrolled, no referee, possibly many-on-one environment that LEOs, soldiers, and victims of violent crime see. MMA is as real as you get - in the gym. In a ring. One-on-one. But that teaches you nothing about the Survival Stress Reflex, the force continuum, martial arts and the law, etc., etc.

Quite frankly, I see martial arts undergoing a long-needed transformation. I'm not sorry to see the flux. The strong, the smart, and the real deals will survive these lean times.

An inside fighting system should be focused on, guess what? Inside fighting.. And in the context of Chinese close range combat that means attached connected inside fighting..

We've been over this before, Jim.

Uechi Ryu teaches the entire spectrum from inside to outside. It starts inside, and finishes (Sanseiryu) with distance fighting. It starts with thrusting, and finishes with grappling. Furthernore, there are no (none, zero, nada) fist punches in The Big Three.

Uechi Ryu is not defective Wing Chun. And I'm not the first to have made that statement. (Wish I could take credit...) Don't try to put a Wing Chun straightjacket on an eclectic style. The styles intersect on some principles, but that's it. They are two different styles. And they should maintain their identities - particularly to the extent that Uechika want not to be hamstrung by another style's dogma.

When I approach another style, I approach it the way anthropology teaches its students to approach the study of another culture. Get rid of your ethnocentric (egocentric) mindset. Empty the cup and understand a different world. That mindset has served me very well.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Carlos,

Thanks for posting those links.

As you can see by the responses, not many are able to grasp the concept of the Uechi system, and not surprisingly so _as it takes a long time and the correct practice of the movements in order to understand.

1. First of all _ movements of the Uechi kata simply represent paradigms of energy vectors that can be meaningfully applied in unlimited ways.

2. What the critics don’t see is the concept of economy of motion through simultaneous attack and defense although the roots of those principles are latent in the kata….and the kata is not understood by what we read here.

3. In his book, Rory gives an excellent compendium on the subject matter.

People who really understand the dynamics of engagement would clearly see that Uechi-Ryu_ teaches self defense in the method of ikyoryu, the practice of performing one crushing explosive movement at a time, something that I covered in detail many years ago on my forum _ as a primary teaching tool of master kanbun Uechi. This does include 'straight blast' pre-emptive action in the many ways the system can be used.

It was indeed this concept that you unleashed on your knife wielding assailant …that almost killed him.

4. As to the ‘bridging question’ so many people still don’t realize that much of Uechi Ryu Karate contains a series of "blocks” being more of “shutdowns or holds" designed at holding your assailant to deliver a more powerful strike and finish him quickly instead of what it would materialize as mostly useless flail under the chemical cocktail.

5. Uechi-Ryu shares much with southern Chinese sister styles in the concern for protection and attack of the centerline; but it does so with an immovable elbow line mechanism for generating upper body power; upon stable, relatively high fighting platform with the use of narrow stepping and short arm bridges; and use of low and middle gate kicks.

Much of the system employs a 'sweep away' and Tai Sabaki response action that will slam an opponent on his ass.

6. The staccato movements of the kata and some aspects of bunkai are designed to allow the practitioner ample opportunity for thorough and dispassionate exploration of the kinesthetic and combative meaning of each sequence.

Uechi-Ryu is a formidable system that stresses fast movements (the front snap kick is comparable to the boxing jab); it is a system that is concerned with striking points of anatomical vulnerability (the tiger's tooth penetrates cavities) _

It is a system that demands body conditioning of its practitioners (the toe is ineffective if not conditioned); the system utilizes borrowing the energy of the opponent to grab and pull him into strikes _ (the kick is preceded by deflection and grabbing motions)

_ And the system is primarily a hand fighting system with low to midrange kicks used to support the hands.

7. The sophistication and elegance of good Uechi Ryu _in the way it expresses energy and efficiency…is something that is usually discovered at High Dan levels under the good sensei … and it generally also presents the challenge of long and intensive research into a myriad of engagement dynamics.

~~

Many who would critique the system never bothered to learn it properly, or were unable to make it work for themselves.

[Stryke]

I leave you guys to it , I too wish there would be more demonstrated on the short range . Especially with all the obvious tools

No punches In kata but a testing hugely reliant on punches .

we are getting back to training elements in these forum that are taboo , and i`m glad they are .

Uechi is a fighting style . And a damn good one , it just comes back to the training .

I started writing a list of why Uechi done from kata should be effective , but realised that thread was er not going anywhere but a train wreck .

but its a good list

base , short stepping simple direct footwork
bridging possibilities
Short range power
openhand tools and hammerfist(my favourite)
great transfers manipulations
Clinching
Elbows and knees
Direct low kicks
Compound striking
Use of forearms
Simple Direct throws takedowns
Positional Guards


I could go on and on , anyone utilising such attributes should be able to defend themselves to a reasonable standard , from there kata

Now wether or not the non kata training most do reflets this I really dont know

I still beleive it`s all there , with a little assembly required (to quote Bill) , so why cant it be just as good as any other style ? ,why the apologising for it , why do we have uber dans calling it a style that just happens to have some self defence moves in it ?

I also believe that conditioning drills, especially kotikiti, are very important, but the way they are being performed in many dojo is a terrible waste of energy and aren't related to the style at all.

Free fighting is very much a part of the system, but teachers aren't spending as much time using this part of the system to relate the system to actual fighting as I believe they should.

Bunkai is another area where more attention should be spent and unfortunately, in many dojo it isn't.