very interesting!!!

[Stryke]

I think if it was to develop a form of push hands you'd have seen it used as a form of push hands.

has anyone taken a look at kotikitae In this
sense ?

Kotikitae is a tegumi drill if done in that sense .

this is the stuff that I`d hope folks would be looking at and talking about , and to me is directly a pushands drill If you can expand from there

http://uechi-ryu.com/forums/viewtopic.p ... fc03c2bef3

but it really doesn't help you Marcus, because I'm guessing that you wanted the real deal ( with no assembly required).......may be hard to do.
The nearest example that I can give is the Yang style of Tai-Chi, in the first few moves ( PengLiuJian)there is a whole host of Qi Na techniques...which are perfectly explained by the moves of the form ( get a book or DVD by Dr.Yang,Jwing ming to see these )
I don't agree with Bill's assessment that the "original"Uechi-Ryu is an Okinawan style or that tegumi ( whatever that is ) plays any part in it I believe that the original Uechi-ryu , (not the stuff we see now was developed in China.........so if you look to China, you can get an idea as to the way they think ......also as the original art was supposed to be half hard/soft.....you may be able to find your knowledge here, because the "Soft" may referr to an art like Tai Chi......I have toyed with the idea that Sanchin was a device to develop "pushing hands"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai1HtkMMrEc

but I think this was just a bit of wishfull thinking
best of luck in your search

I think it is in sense Ray , Ive been looking at all the arts and how this stuff fits for a long time , I can see it all there , and practice my own Uechified versions , nothing spectacular , but it is what it is .

I think tegumi is there , kotikitae and arm rubbing is clearly a tactile drill if you look beyond it as a bashing excercise .

Yeah and Ive got Dr.Yang,Jwing ming books , I think it might of been you who recomended him oriinally , good stuff .

[fivedragons]

Posted by Jim: "Why would I come to your school in light of this?"

Why are you here, fool.

[Laird2]

Okay stick to the thread.....?

Well Jim the thread is about dilution of the Arts.

I agree with you Jim, all styles have suffered this fate to some degree.

Jorvick offered up Tai-Chi as the classic example of an art that few people understand what the forms are about, lots of guys teaching movements but most of them don't have a clue as to their martial applications. Like he says you have to look long and hard before you discover someone with the answers. I believe most kata based systems suffer the same issue to a large degree. But if one were to hook up with someone like Sifu Chen in Edmonton you would be learning all of the applications, because he's another guy that knows.

Now what do you think Ray did when he learned forums and no one could tell him how to use them? Well he went and took at a little of this and a lot of that. Sounds like he started looking for answers else where, eventually he hooked up with a dude that new the applications and his forums now have purpose. One might say that Jorivck set out to assemble his ryu.

What has been lost in transmission from generation to generation?

Bill admits that Uechi may have lost its tegumi...Good on you Bill, I agree! I've been working on an article / DVD for the past year or two entitled..."Uechi-ryu a stand up grappling system." Actually the preliminary preview to Rick was a factor in my final certificate in the IUPA. (My teaching certificate) I’ve spent damn near three/four years doing nothing but Uechi and the clinch. Is the Sanchin guard and the wauke well suited to clinch work? Does Uechi kata have tons of techniques for the clinch range? Do ducks like water?

I don’t think Bill needs the peanut gallery heckling him about his statement. In his years in the art he has come to the conclusion that this may be an area where the system may have lost something. He doesn’t need to be insulted for expressing an opinion on the original question posed in this thread. Now Bills got over 30 years in this art…and it’s not recognized but I’m coming up on thirty myself….but what do we know? Well for starters fuk of a lot more than you guys …so how many months you guys train Uechi? …With a good teacher?

Pretty fuking arrogant…I wouldn’t presume to show up at the aki site or the chunner site and piss in their corn flakes. But then I’m not a master of all styles like some lads. I’m still trying to put my own ryu together and don’t have time to dictate how other folks train…but I’m happy to learn from what they have to offer. However. All is in Wing Chung doesn’t work for me Jim. BTW. Do you have a training group, a school. Do you still do WC or are you just an internet troll?

So if things have been lost why not seek to explore them. I for one am weary of the 2nd coming of Yip man trying to tell us what Uechi is and what to train and not to train. Apparently Jim can’t find any clips on this old oki art. Well it’s called oki sumo these days Jim. Just because you don’t find it doesn’t mean it’s not there.

Goju is full of throws and locks as is Uechi. I’m sick of guys who have not trained past white belt in this system telling everyone what Uechi is and what it is not. It’s as ridiculous as having someone who does not box explaining how to box.

Jorvick, your right…Nathan is a wee bit out of the box. goon on him! Marcus and I explore this concept of sanchin/wauke being push hands positional transfer, I explore the concept to my students. As does Rick.

The wauke, as Van points out can be a pre-emptive attack instead of a block as it is taught at a beginner’s level.

The guys in the IUPA call it a positional transfer. If you can use this transfer to create disparity between the upper body and the lower body positions the spine gets locked out and the opponent hits the dirt.

Jim, I think Bill mentions when a student is ready a teacher appears….I think the teacher is always there but if the student can’t get past the first month or two of training….they will never understand anything you offer them. If you don't know schit what can we tell tell youthat you will understand?

We have two guys here who have had a taste of Uechi and now have the answers. To bad they didn’t stick with the system long enough to learn something about it.

Ray …This will piss a few folks off…but I believe the principles of this system enable a practioner of this art to fight at all ranges, from stand up to the ground…but our nitch is the clinch. In fact tegumi and clinch fighting and Uechi are one in the same in my look at the world.


So what is tegumi…well it’s sumo now…but it was clinch fighting, locks, takedowns, and short striking art. You know…just like Uechi!!!

But as Bill says lots of it’s gone, some folks get it some don’t. Because the "All in WC dude" doesn’t know what it is …it doesn’t exist. What an open mind! Try goggle Jim!

http://www.seinenkai.com/art-sumo.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLzlNHQLbU4

http://media.putfile.com/Tegumi-Practice

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_12.asp

http://totalkarate.blogspot.com/2007/04 ... arate.html

[Laird2]

Posted by Jim: "Why would I come to your school in light of this?"

Why are you here, fool.

Well the I'm not sure...Jim use to study Uechi........He appears to have an axe to grind. His purpose appears to be to tell us we ****** and WC rules.


Edited ...Jim claims my source was not accurate...best to just ask him.

[Stryke]

For the record I`m still pised of how Laird always owned me at the tactile bridging stuff , I think Laird told me he learnt some of from Jim Maloney . So I know theres Uechi out there doing/done it .

My own tactile work is from taking the Uechi drills and all the great stuff from the IUPA guys , the Koryu Uchinadi Tegumi , and hybridising it from cross referencing that and lots of other chinese arts .

Like Bill said , it`s obvious once you see it . But pretty hard to see before hand .

[Laird2]

"What you don't seek is never found"....

Soke Kiwi Sensei

Mate one day some one will quote you!

[Stryke]

The system evolved into what it is today in the context of Okinawan karate, not Chinese kenpo. While this evolution has been good for the system, many subtle elements of what Kanbun practiced must have been lost or reinterpreted.

1) One can search the Foujou area of China in hopes of finding the “source of the Nile”.
2)One can study other relatively "pure" Chinese systems that have come from Foujou province and evaluate interpretations and techniques that fit with the present body of knowledge called Uechi Ryu.
3)One can study other sanchin based systems and draw from the experience and interpretations of others who helped this family of systems evolve in the culture of Okinawa.

[jorvik]

Well let's be fair here. Jim hasn't knocked Uechi...however he has knocked Wing-Chun and he has lamented the loss of technique in Wing-Chun. I gave the example of Tai-Chi as another example of arts being diluted. Neither of us has said anything about Uechi here
Quote
"1) One can search the Foujou area of China in hopes of finding the “source of the Nile”.
2)One can study other relatively "pure" Chinese systems that have come from Foujou province and evaluate interpretations and techniques that fit with the present body of knowledge called Uechi Ryu.
3)One can study other sanchin based systems and draw from the experience and interpretations of others who helped this family of systems evolve in the culture of Okinawa.


My interest in Uechi revolves solely around Sanchin ( like Max I guess). I can see elements of Wing-chun in it and also Tai-Chi. But we then have to look at Kata and the way we interepret it to get deeper understanding ,,,this in itself can be a long study.I don't mean kata but actually understanding how to interpret kata.
Bill gave me one clue to this...and that is the Chinese are not bothered in which order the moves come in a kata, and you can see this in Tai-Chi....the thing that makes a style a Tai-Chi style is that it has all the Tai-Chi moves in it, but not necessarily in the same order or sequence....and this further implies that the bunkai/applications of the form are pretty much the same.
If we extrapolate knowledge from other similar styles we should hopefully get the same knowledge..i.e. if we look at other southern styles of kung-fu and see what they do, providing they are all consistant we should get an idea of what Uechi may have been like.
My main interest in Sanchin is that I believe that it may contain the answers to how to fight somebody from another Southern style i.e. Wing-Chun.
If you want to compare the similarities between Wing-Chun and Uechi here are just a few
they both are close in styles, they both have three kata, they were both from a "Temple" background......and if you look at the names of the forms they both have numbers in them consistent with a Buddhist Temple origin.

Now on a more practical level for "Stand up grappling" Sanchin has one particular move in it which to me exemplifies stillness beating movement
that move is found in Tai-Chi and in Wing-Chun...in actual fact my Tai chi teacher used to do it to me but couldn't explain it...my little blind Wing-Chun Sifu used to throw me around the room using it ............the movement is called Peng in Tai-Chi and Tan in Wing-Chun in Sanchin it is the way the palms face upward in the stance, I have mentioned this before.............but I don't have the ability to fully explain what I mean in words alone, to me it is one of the essential skills of stand up grappling it doesn't involve strength or speed...........very cool

One thing that I will say about forums that folks don't seem to get
and that is all the "tough " talk isn't worth squat. Unless you have actually met and trained with the people you are talking to, Same as who you have trained with doesn't reflect your own ability...you may be a lousy pupil.........there are some folks I have spoken with who are the nicest, politest folks and really this doesn't tell you what they can do in the slightest.
People like to talk about "Keyboard warriors" and they are quite happy to call other folks that, but seem to expect different for themselves.
So let's not go there ..............

[maxwell ainley]

A shift in emphasis ,or a dilution ?.

Uechi-ryu did shift its early emphasis ,we know this as fact ,yet was this a dilution ? what I ref; here is the total empasis on Sanchin as per Kanbun before indulging in the other facets of uechi-ryu .to qoute Kanei sensei on this change of emphasis ,is intention was to hold and to squeeze in the important essentials his fathers original teaching transmitted as they the students travelled .

[jorvik]

I like this guys approach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOBNFoM7G2I&NR=1

and here is his site

http://www.masterwongshop.com/

[Van Canna]

In his book Rory writes

Some people want to believe in magic and secrets and there are other people who will satisfy those beliefs for money and power.

What does a real attack look like and what do I need to have a chance?
Look at what you need not what you have. Then you gather what you need instead of trying to stretch resources where they were never meant to.

So how do we find out what we need?

He then writes that the optimal mind set is one that requires a focused rage for the first half second.

If you can truly flip the switch from surprised, overwhelmed and terrified to the assault mindset, I can’t teach you much.

He discusses the predatory mind set. You either have it or you don’t.
And ‘if you have it’ you must be able to access it in an instant.

And he also writes

Despite the wide variety of skills and complete incompatibility of the sets or strategy, martial artists are often convinced that they are training for all these things simultaneously in strictly regimented classes where things are done by rote and without question.

You can discuss the lessons in these comments.

I think it the essential aspect of self defense is to survive the first Most Critical 5 Seconds of Your Life, as Tim Larkin writes.[/quote]….Briefly the problem is not the knife but the man holding the knife. Training yourself to recognize that what makes any man dangerous is his active brain.

This is tantamount in freeing you
from the belief that any tool (knife, club, and/or firearm) in
and of itself is the threat.

We just finished a live training in Dallas where the new methods
we employed to teach these principles resulted in the class
almost 'teaching' themselves what to do in any violent situation.

My instructor and I were astonished at how LITTLE guidance new
clients need once they OWN that critical info.

Sadly most people blow off the need to really educate themselves;
instead they search for 'cool techniques'. But as we always say:

'Principles save your life, techniques get you killed'.[/quote]

So he is talking about certain concepts…what are they? And where do you find them in your TMA practice?

[JimHawkins]

Well the I'm not sure...Jim use to study Uechi....Something happened....A few of the Black belts showed him the door. ....He appears to have an axe to grind. His purpose appears to be to tell us we ****** and WC rules.

We will see if he visits me if he is correct or not.

Can you spell L I B E L?

Another load of BS from the pizz master grapevine... The source of your info is either demented or a liar, (not to mention a 2 faced gossip) take your pick.. If anyone wants to hear the truth concerning my personal matters PM me.

You folks are just coming up with loads of trash talking because of what? Because I keep asking the same questions you do or used to or because I ALSO maintain that ALL the arts have been diluted and state so on a relevant topic? In my book you fellows talking crap are a bunch of insecure infantile bullies.

Or perhaps it's because I am no longer with Uechi and have different view? Too F$#@$ bad.. Go $@$@ yourselves if you don't like my opinions, which BTW were and are almost always the same as the rest of the "heretics", so in my book you're a big fat hypocrite....

"Jim, I love it when you teach Uechi.." Remember who said that? GMAFB!

Why don't you show my posts on this or the other thread that are over the line and deserving of this load of crap?

[Laird2]

I guess when you live in a litigious culture one mention of the word libel sends folks scurrying for the hills.

In Canada for libel a comment has to have:

1. Wide distribution.
2. Be untrue.
3. Have a financial impact.

1) Well I don’t think this site has wide distribution, GEM always complains that lots of folks visit the site but few visit the forums. I believe “the five” are normally given the blame for this. Were you one of this nameless faceless group of five?

Also you are also publishing the same statements for the world to see… are you not also complicit in sullying your own reputation???? Doh!

Well the I'm not sure...Jim use to study Uechi....Something happened....A few of the Black belts showed him the door. ....He appears to have an axe to grind. His purpose appears to be to tell us we ****** and WC rules.

We will see if he visits me if he is correct or not.

Can you spell L I B E L?

2) It has been my experience that in any disagreement there has to be more than one side to the argument. In this situation I suspect there may be three sides.
There is your denial, there is the information that I repeated that I was told by a well respected source. Whom my source of information is not a topic of debate, I have no intention of revealing my source. The third side in our disagreement I suppose would be the truth. A most stealthy of adversary the truth is always hard to pin down. It usually resides between the party of the first parts position and the party of the 2nd parts position.

At any rate, with who and where and did you train Uechi so we can ask about the story and see what they say about it being untrue? If your going to claim foul, I think it’s important we discover the truth…don’t you Jim? Lets get the third version…Balls in your court!

3)Financial impact:

Are you presently teaching Uechi-ryu? Would a false perception of you on a Uechi-ryu site cause you a loss of students? Ohh right you don’t do Uechi.

Are presently teaching or practicing Wing Chun? Would a false perception of you on a Uechi site cause you a loss of Wing Chun students? Do you have a dojo Jim or is your dojo cyberspace?

So I guess if we are going to clear this up we will need you to provide us with your story and also it would be nice if you could tell us of your present dojo so we may ascertain loss.

If my sources have provided me with incorrect information…you have my heart felt apology. Let us get to the bottom of this Jim. Lets go to the source, your Uechi experiences.

[JimHawkins]

Sorry I am not going to play your games and 'dance' for you..

Contingent apology is accepted contingently.

If you or anyone feels the need to check me out then go ahead and do so..

If you or anyone feels the need to get my side of what amounts to a non story then PM me.

If you or anyone feels the need to establish what my position is on TMA or any subset thereof then read my posts.. Those belly aching are doing so because they cannot refute or attack my posts, so instead they choose to attack me.. Tsssk, tsssk...

My position, as I said is, has been and will be essentially the same as what was the original 'heretic' positions as stated around these parts for years and still done on another forum regularly..

My "axe" is the same "axe" that those heretics always carried.. I will not make further statements that go deeper because this is not the topic for it nor is it "diss safe"..

The reality of this kind of BS and grandstanding is that it is all taken with a complete misunderstanding of what the arts are to begin with and stand for, or should..

One does not need to be good at Ving Tsun to be a good fighter.. One does not need to have the "real Uechi" to be a good fighter.. One does not need martial art to be a good fighter.. So, there is a difference between being good at a martial fighting art, and using it to fight with, expressing that art in fighting or simply fighting..

Is the ART honestly used in a martial way? Does it train relevant attributes based on what the art claims? These are the questions.. Anyone can simply train to fight.. The questions is how or not, it relates back to the system or method--if any.. If it doesn't there's the axe.


As far as peeing on corn flakes.. Over on the WCK board I have frequented there are regulars there who do a lot more than pee on flakes--more like a number 2.. If I took a similar position around here the internet connection to the server would probably blow up with all the dissed connection attempts.

However, most regular on that board still welcome those disser regs.. We welcome them because despite the fact that they constantly say directly that WCK *****, they have other more helpful things to contribute re training, etc. I have no problem if they think WCK ***** because it doesn't change my wing chun or what my experience is.. Why should it matter to me? So, if contrary opinions enrage you or even opinions you once shared enrage you then I'd look closely at why that is and deal with it accordingly because there are going to be a whole lot of folks out there who won't agree with you. Since when has disagreement....well you know the rest.

I have nothing else on this and unless forced to, I will not address those who are issuing off topic and highly inappropriate comments or attacks toward me and unless and until those contact me and whatever issues in question are resolved.

[Laird2]

Well that sure clears all the questions up Jimbo!

You are correct we agree on lots of things concerning CMA.

I don't agree on how you've been treating young Bill, on this thread.

I don't agree with how you often come across as the 2nd coming of yip man and appear to disparage Uechi.

I'm not alone in this perception of you.

Why did Rick ban you?

Why did Van Ban you?

Did your first Uechi School beat you and tell you not to return?

Why do we see posts like this one?

http://www.uechi-ryu.com/forums/viewtop ... cc2795082d

Why do so many people on the forums think you are bashing Uechi?

Could it be anything your doing?...or are we just all clowns hiding from the truth. The prophet has brought the tablets from the mountain...but no one can read them as we are all two busy averting our eyes. We are not hiding from the truth Jim; we are just to busy averting out eyes, Christ the 2nd coming of yip man and Kanbun all in the same package. Your Gift is wasted upon us...we are not worthy. Please ascend to the heavens and let us unworthy types continue with our assembly.