American Kempo Karate

[Josann]

I agree Jim. What I find alarming is the idea of introducing oneself as as "karate master" and a gi that has umpteen patches on it and a belt with more stripes than the United Nations. This is the type of art that teaches "advanced killer techniques, street deadly, lethal etc". Reminds me of the comic book commercials of the 1960's where for $1.98 you could learn deady king fu secrets and beat up every kid in your middle school who ever gave you a dirty look.

Granted there are legitimate kenpo schools out there but I don't see this as being one of them, at least not with the snake oil he's selling in his website.

[JimHawkins]

What I find alarming is the idea of introducing oneself as as "karate master" and a gi that has umpteen patches on it and a belt with more stripes than the United Nations.

As far as master, I can understand, it annoys me a little when folks use this term, I wouldn't no matter what my status, sifu is good enough for many.. Still, I see master as just a title that many organizations use to show their position within the organization.. In the end it's just a name and title and if you can't back it up one way or another it means nothing in particular.

Well I guess he was wearing the cool gi somewhere else, as I just caught the clip where he has on sweats..

I can imagine the outfit.. Well, if you can whip his butt in sparring all those patches and stripes just make it more fun..

Still he was consistent with the main idea of kempo which often is about continuity..... Although I disagree with his use of the term 'patterns'.....

This is the type of art that teaches "advanced killer techniques, street deadly, lethal etc". Reminds me of the comic book commercials of the 1960's where for $1.98 you could learn deady king fu secrets and beat up every kid in your middle school who ever gave you a dirty look.

Well I see many or most TMA this way.. Randomly walk into a school in any town and more often than not I see folks who are teaching and training stuff that has little or no realistic application, in terms of self defense or whatever--very minimal. Then there are shades of things in the middle, hard core but little of the actual art, etc.. Bottom line is IMO all this stuff is about business these days, earnings, numbers and so on--it's a commodity.. When you mix money with martial and art you get what you get...

[jorvik]

I think kempo is okay...the stuff I've seen is alright, kind of a mix between boxing,open hands,kicks and throws....and as Jim says a lot of the TMA ***** anyway.
I used to do Kuk Sul and it was only when I'd stopped doing it that I questioned it's history and authenticity.but as a style it was very good mixing trad boxing skills with open hand strikes, all sorts of kicking combos.......I think if my hip hadn't gone bad I would have stuck with it ........so I kinda relate that experience to the Kempo

[Josann]

http://www.dojo.com/blog/2008/04/


This is what I am refering to. The third or fourth video down. I understand not all kenpo is like this but where is the demo from the master, where is his display of his art. He may have some ability but I'd like think that his skill - not his gi - is how one could tell.

I'm sure that the original guys like Cerio, Villari and others were good but somwhere them and these guys I think something happened.

[mhosea]

As has been pointed out, the curriculum is fluid and eclectic, so the quality of the instructor is even more important than when there is a rigid, well-defined curriculum to fall back on. I have my youngest son in a Hawaiian Kempo school. He actually started it before I started in Uechi Ryu. It's not that I like everything about it, but overall I think well of it, although judging from some of the kids who have transferred in from other schools, I doubt I would say the same about other kempo schools in general.

[JimHawkins]

http://www.dojo.com/blog/2008/04/


This is what I am refering to. The third or fourth video down. I understand not all kenpo is like this but where is the demo from the master, where is his display of his art. He may have some ability but I'd like think that his skill - not his gi - is how one could tell.

I'm sure that the original guys like Cerio, Villari and others were good but somwhere them and these guys I think something happened.

I watched all but the last one..

Honestly it's standard fare IMO.. The first video sounded and did hit upon some of the core points that are often talked up here, about weapons, multiples, etc, with the exception that karate does not mean 'open hand'...

The rest of the content is just more of what I see most everywhere, and of course sun sao technique..

The gi is good old Villari standard dress, I always got a kick out of their uniforms, being so over the top, like some kind of mystical, grand high exalted mytic ruler outfit..

Similar to this:



Same tailor?

There are no standards set and no regulation in TMA so you get what you get... How to define what is good and what is bad.. What is good for you may not be good to me.. Most of it is pure junk and funny enough, after the Japanification of karate for school kids, look where the largest growth in karate has been over the last decade, with school kids.. It is what it is..

[Josann]

I think that it is unfortunate that karate has become like little league. A few years ago a nephew of mine took part in a Villari tournament. Almost all of the competitors were under the age of 14 and most of these were probably out of karate by age 16. Because of this karate is viewed by society in general as a kids' activity, something that helps with school, confidence etc. When kids are adolescents they move on to other things and seldom come back to martial arts because of a "been there. done that" attitude. If any of you have teens or coached youth sports there is no shortage of 12 to 15 year old black belts, most of which are in tae kwon do or kenpo.

I personally think the best time to begin karate or any martial art is when college age. Then it is an individual choice and it is a great habit to develop as a lifetime activity.I have a 19 year old that trains MMA and I tell him to keep an open mind with martial arts and find something he can do as a lifetime activity. He knows that vale tudo can't be done forever, but that BJJ with a gi in a non competitive attitude could.

Jim, I understand that these instructors are correct with the principles of kenpo. Go watch a tournament for some of these schools and watch these overweight 50 somethings strut around looking like a cross between something from star wars and Elvis. Leaves a bad taste in your mouth and one can understand why karate has fallen out of favor with Americans at large.

[JimHawkins]

Go watch a tournament for some of these schools and watch these overweight 50 somethings strut around looking like a cross between something from star wars and Elvis. Leaves a bad taste in your mouth and one can understand why karate has fallen out of favor with Americans at large.

Well let's examine what karate should be according to whomever..

If karate was................ Exactly what you think it should be..

Can we define that?

If so who would be interested in it?

Who wouldn't be?

What would be the pluses?

The negatives?

How would it impact the ability to use karate as a business in the USA?

[Steele]

http://www.dojo.com/blog/2008/04/


This is what I am refering to. The third or fourth video down. I understand not all kenpo is like this but where is the demo from the master, where is his display of his art. He may have some ability but I'd like think that his skill - not his gi - is how one could tell.

I'm sure that the original guys like Cerio, Villari and others were good but somwhere them and these guys I think something happened.

I watched all but the last one..

Honestly it's standard fare IMO.. The first video sounded and did hit upon some of the core points that are often talked up here, about weapons, multiples, etc, with the exception that karate does not mean 'open hand'...

The rest of the content is just more of what I see most everywhere, and of course sun sao technique..

The gi is good old Villari standard dress, I always got a kick out of their uniforms, being so over the top, like some kind of mystical, grand high exalted mytic ruler outfit..

Similar to this:



Same tailor?

There are no standards set and no regulation in TMA so you get what you get... How to define what is good and what is bad.. What is good for you may not be good to me.. Most of it is pure junk and funny enough, after the Japanification of karate for school kids, look where the largest growth in karate has been over the last decade, with school kids.. It is what it is..

I asked my friend who runs the school I visited about the uniforms/gi's that the Villari people wear, he thinks they are ridiculous as well.
We also had a discussion about what a traditional martial art is. Having studied Uechi for only a total of about 5 years, I am not an expert on anything related to Uechi.
With that said the version of Kempo he teaches is a Cerio system. He explained to me that systems should evolve over time, making changes for the better.
He then asked me how Uechi has evolved? That was a question I think is better answered by more expierienced people. So how has Uechi evolved?
Up until this point I always had a somewhat low opinion of Kempo, that is starting to change. It looks like a very practical system, mixing in some traditional as well.

[mhosea]

He explained to me that systems should evolve over time, making changes for the better.

I think I'll have to defer as well on the question of the evolution of Uechi Ryu, but as for evolution in general, and how that differs from mere change, the word ought to connote that changes have been passed through the filter of natural selection, which in this context means that they are affirmed when they enhance the likelihood of survival in self-defense or produce better outcomes on average in sport, depending on the focus. I suppose some changes may slip through when they are neutral or only slightly detrimental but accompanied by genuinely advantageous changes. This is evolution. Evolution is not just changing technique A to technique B because, say, you've seen B work in the UFC and not A. If, for a self-defense focus, people who experience violence regularly can tell us that technique A never works, and technique B does, then that is one thing, and obviously sport can provide its own feedback if that is your focus, but I hardly think that covers everything that goes on. So, my question for anyone who talks about the "evolution" of their martial art is how they have determined that the changes they know about are truly evolutionary.

[hoshin]

i agree with mhosea. evolution is different then change. the important factor is why it is changed. did it change to reflect new patterns of combat like BJJ. or was it changed to look more spectacular in a kata turnament. if you look at the similar kata in between kempo and shotokan , you will see the changes were not for a combat based reason. kempo does have good points as well as the bad. the major problems i see in the system is that there is no foundation. no body structure integrity. so what happens is you got a system of people who practice their "advanced" strikes , kicks and the 37th advanced blocking system, without knowing how to generate power or have a rooted base. the entire structure of the system is based on accumulation of techniques , strikes and blocks. rather then quality and simplicity.
there are 108 techniques to deal with a straight punch that need to be learned. by black belt you are on # 32. not to meantion the A,B,C versions
there are about 5 new punches and kicks to learn per rank.
you need to learn 15 kata for black belt and even the godans have no idea how many kata are actually in the system they are learning new ones with every rank as well.
then there are hundreds of club defense techniques and knife techniques.

the list goes on and on.

steve

[jorvik]

Quote
"
if you look at the similar kata in between kempo and shotokan , you will see the changes were not for a combat based reason"

I think that this is a problem with any martial art.
Shotokan is a debased art, even when you compare it to what Funakoshi did..
and what he did is far different from what his teachers taught or other folks like Choki Motobu used to do. Folks like to think of it as "Traditional" when it is about as traditional as Kempo, in fact in 100 years time I doubt folks will know the differnce or care
and FWIW I really like the kempo Gi's....I love all that flash stuff and why not

[f.Channell]

Life's too short for boring gi's.

[hoshin]

omg fred that picture is too much...laughed my butt off.
as liberachi once said " too much of a good thing is wonderfull"

Jorvic , i agree with you 100 % that all martial arts are a break down and restructure and mixture or other arts. however the problem is and always will be when the new art is missing key components. that within the restructure the most critical basics are lost and forgoten. as i think i said before kenpo has some good points like flow of action but lack some very basic power and stability components along with the knowledge about the chemical cocktail stuff that Van talks about. alot of kenpo's stuff is very fine detail movements that will not work but they think it will.

steve

[JimHawkins]

alot of kenpo's stuff is very fine detail movements that will not work but they think it will.

Would love to see some examples.....

Hard to tell by the description but many related styles and systems have these.. IME most folks don't know what they are hence none or very little discussion of them..

The missing parts IMO are often related to positional and energy strategies common to CMA, but often lost down the line.

Small movements are just small movements.. If they have a known use and are actually used in training then you have something to address, otherwise it's just a phantom, a shadow of what was.....