timing of steps/strikes

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:38 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5J6gpIC ... re=related

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:14 pm

Watch the rotational delivery.

Chris McKaskell · Post by **Chris McKaskell** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:50 pm

Hey Marcus and Hoshin,

Stryke wrote:Hey Chris your referring to a slide yes ? or just a reverse punch ala gyaku zuki ? .

If I`m reading it right I say still hit before the landing , I actually unweight the front leg , and then drop into it deeper and compress with the strike , you can also use the foot stomp as a learning tool to get the dropping feel .

Hope I read the question right ? , it`s a very shotokany thing to me , flash backs , deeper lunge slide up and bam ......

Yes, it's a slide -- like you might have in the series of shoken slides in Kanchin or Sanseirui.

We spent some time today working on hand targets and exploring the feel -- playing slow with accentuated stepping, or stomping more like (like you suggest), then speeding it up and eventually layering on more techniques.

We played with all options: and the 'stomp' after felt most powerful - a good teaching tool.

However, I came out of it with the thought that, when things get going really fast and you don't have complete control, it's best to have practiced all options so you can make whichever feels right work in the moment of impact.

Fun work, thanks -

I keep trying to find common ground between Shorin and Uechi -- again I'm more at home being in really close so sanchin dachi is always way more comfortable than those longer stances

Chris McKaskell · Post by **Chris McKaskell** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:51 pm

hoshin wrote:Chis..
i can understand your idea. it would be a much faster strike like you sugest. i think that with this technique you would have to be close to the guy. to the point that you really didnt need a step to move you thru space to reach him. your foot would be moving forward for a follow up maybe?
i also think that a power punch is not ALWAYS the most important factor. a nice shoken to the neck works well. you dont need to crush bones with every punch.

hoshin · Post by **hoshin** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:55 pm

i think if you watch the clip close, you will notice he lands with the foot before the hand strikes. kind of contradicts what we have been saying.
but he is droping the weight into the punch. this i belive is slightly more important. your foot may make contact but the weight can continue to drop more as you punch. correct me if i am wrong but that is the entire point of the foot first,hand contact second is to learn to drop the weight into the punch.

hoshin · Post by **hoshin** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:05 pm

chris
just for a point of interest ,
shorin ryu originally had stances more like uechi. look at pictures of Funakoshi or Nagamine and you will notice they dont use the really low zenkutsu dachi that you see in modern shotokan.
i think when people hear the word step they might think they have to cover a few feet to make contact but i feel in any true fight you are mearly covering inches. anything more and your just looking for problems.

steve

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:03 am

Teh clip was just for establishing a point of reference , didnt mean it as a how too .

i think if you watch the clip close, you will notice he lands with the foot before the hand strikes. kind of contradicts what we have been saying.
but he is droping the weight into the punch. this i belive is slightly more important. your foot may make contact but the weight can continue to drop more as you punch. correct me if i am wrong but that is the entire point of the foot first,hand contact second is to learn to drop the weight into the punch.

Um dont you mean the entire point of the fist first than the foot is to learn to drop the weight into the punch ?

However, I came out of it with the thought that, when things get going really fast and you don't have complete control, it's best to have practiced all options so you can make whichever feels right work in the moment of impact.

the whole point of training is to devleop a feel of a mechanic , so you dont need control or thoguht when it hits the fan , you dont recreate a technique , you call on a feel ... that feel is what takes you from bound technique to principle based movment the feel will create the technique , but all JMHO .

hoshin · Post by **hoshin** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:01 am

yeah ...stryke your right ...put the words down in reverse, thinking to fast

Chris McKaskell · Post by **Chris McKaskell** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:07 am

hoshin wrote:chris
just for a point of interest ,
shorin ryu originally had stances more like uechi. look at pictures of Funakoshi or Nagamine and you will notice they dont use the really low zenkutsu dachi that you see in modern shotokan.

Hey Steve, I hear you -- I'd need to dig it up, but i've also seen photos of the toe fist being demonstrated in Shorin.

I used the smilies in my post to add irony and humour to my comment if not accuracy -- you see, I'm limited to a mostly sport karate perspective of the style so there's just not a whole lot of close range work going on in my shorin training.

Chris McKaskell · Post by **Chris McKaskell** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:10 am

the whole point of training is to devleop a feel of a mechanic , so you dont need control or thoguht when it hits the fan , you dont recreate a technique , you call on a feel ... that feel is what takes you from bound technique to principle based movment the feel will create the technique , but all JMHO .

And I'm getting there - slowly, but surely.

Laird2 · Post by **Laird2** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:02 am

hoshin wrote:while i agree with the strike milli seconds before the landing of the step, i belive that this is somewhat an advanced concept. not that you cant explain it to a white or green belt but their time could be better spent on other things.
so i teach white belts step then strike. i teach green and brown to start timing the strike and step so they end together. then at around black belt i would get them to squeek out a little more power by hitting right before the foot. the only exception might be a step action that is really a type of foot attack , sweep or something that needs to precede the hand.

I see no value in not teaching to strike with conected mass.
Why not just teach the student the principle right off the bat? No diss just don't understand why you just don't show them the correct way first. There is nothing advanced about this.

I don't understand this advanced stuff. I think there is just good karate and bad karate. What is the value in teaching someone to do weak ass arm strikes.

People come to learn teach them something!

Shana Moore · Post by **Shana Moore** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:07 pm

Laird2 wrote: I see no value in not teaching to strike with conected mass.
Why not just teach the student the principle right off the bat? No diss just don't understand why you just don't show them the correct way first. There is nothing advanced about this.

I don't understand this advanced stuff. I think there is just good karate and bad karate. What is the value in teaching someone to do weak ass arm strikes.

People come to learn teach them something!

Laird,Perhaps having a military background, you started at a more experienced point than most. Speaking for myself, as a lower belt...the first few months were matter of "getting it", which includes learning some basic body coordination and engaging a new way of thinking.

I also think the kata, at least as I'm learning them, are set up to build foundations for strong function. For example, kanshiwa has the slide-then wauke-double bushikens-step-then...etc. In Kanshu, you integrate the slide/step with the wauke-double bushikens at the same time..and I have seen this combo metemorph further in more advanced kata...By FEELING the difference in the power and "feel" of themoves, it makes more of an impact on what I think/do than ANY amount of 'telling/explaining" ever could.

BTW, I LOVE the strength and flow I've discovered in Kanshu!:D

I am beginning to think this very kinetic way of learning is part of why Kanbun spent so much time and repetition on Sanchin...physically building a foundation and learning path that is far superior to talk.

So, no diss here either, you may not think this is advanced, but not every learns/thinks as you or has your background.

IMHO, the early break down in steps is not to teach "weak ass arm strikes", but to make sure everyone has the fundamental building blocks...and in such a way that she/he can figure it out and experience for her/himself.

Laird2 · Post by **Laird2** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:24 pm

Zoom Zoom

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:35 pm

we break it down and teach it incorrectly so folks can figure out it by themselves .... ?

confusing ? has anyone ever studied cause and effect ?

Its too hard it`s too tough ... , wheres the instruction ? , wheres the positive reinforcement , wheres the can do attitude ?

lots of folks can hit hard without training , why wouldnt training accentuate that from day one ?

Shana Moore · Post by **Shana Moore** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:47 pm

That's not what I said Stryke, that's the conclusion you jumped to. I said that I believe it is taught in steps, so folks can figure out the basics and have a strong foundation to build upon. I don't think you are teaching folks the wrong way to do something, you are simply teaching it to them in small baby steps. Not everyone will require that level or path to learning, but many will...especially if they have no prior martial experience.

you don't have to agree, I am merely sharing my two cents. I know, for my own part, that feeling the difference in seperateing the step and strike and linking them was a lightbulb moment for me.

Everyone learns differently. You are so fortunate that you were able to take an express step.