Sanchin

[Stryke]

I know its a shock Bill , but I agree

the biggest reasons for the differences have to do with specific application adaptations.

form follows function , what works will manifest itself in similar incarnations .

I`ve always been interested in the conjecture of Siams influence on the okinawan tradition , and maybe Uechi least of all would be a target for that conjecture , however the path of martial exchange between all the asian countrys does show a lot of crossover .

but regardless of lineage , that practical reasons and function remain the same , obviously the ruleset and training paradigm being an influence also in the exspression of the stance/guard .

and I also wanted to suggest perhaps there could be some function about rolling the traps and shoulders sometimes ......

[maxwell ainley]

I have been trying to show how [in Kanbuns day ]he thought accuracy and form were important ,and a steering away from this by advanced students aids and fosters a tendancy to do ones own thing far too soon .

When asked how his father started his dojo in china ,"Kanei replied whenever a student had studied for many years and felt that he was adequately prepared to open a school ,he would ask his students permission .If granted,the student would find the area he wished to teach in and would publicly demonstrate his kata for six months.This demonstation served two purposes.First, if any master in the audience during this period told him that his form was not yet good enough ,the student would return to his teacher for another two or three years of pactice before returning once again ."

My point without this type of situation we start ,to depart from what Kanbun was teaching .

[Bill Glasheen]

Max

This is a very interesting version of our present test situation. For someone to teach today, they will have needed to have gone through a number of test boards and to a certain extent a public display of their abilities. The test boards have the power to grant them rank, and all the privileges that go with it - including the permission to teach and/or a teaching certificate.

The one element I see that's different is the length of time of the public displays. I see two goals here. The first is to slow the student down a bit. The second is something I was blessed with at an early age - opportunity to get used to presenting yourself in public. I had a 7th grade teacher who used to make us get up after reading material and talk about it to the class from behind a podium. That process happened all year long. My teacher took a particular interest in me, which meant I was forced to go up in front of the podium and later the PTA to talk about all kinds of topics. Today I have absolutely no fear of speaking in public. In fact, I really look forward to it. I find I can speak with nothing more than a loose outline, and adjust the talk to the questions that are being asked or maybe even the responses or facial expressions I see as I'm going along.

The truth is that teaching requires a number of important skills. A typical Uechi instructor must do while talking, and still be able to see what everyone is doing in the room. I find myself trying to teach that ability to my own students. It doesn't come easy.

The ability to teach someone a partner exercises is similarly a challenge of multitasking and public display. I'm amazed now at my ability to do what I do and see what the other person is doing while I'm trying to tell them how to do it. I find myself pulling their feet with my own feet when they step improperly, etc. Meanwhile, I note how difficult it is for my students to do this. I will send them off in a corner to teach someone a partner routine, and then have them come back and display it to the crowd. And wouldn't you know that their partner may be stepping with the wrong foot, and they'll never see it - even though it's happening right there in front of them. And why is this happening? They're all wrapped up in trying to do their own part, and not look stupid in front of people. There isn't enough residual resting gray matter for them also to be monitoring what the other person is doing with their own 4 limbs, and "pull them along" in the routine when they aren't getting it right.

Is this important for fighting? I would say being able simultaneously to see every action and intent in your opponent while also doing your own thing with ease is VERY important in fighting. My first Uechi instructor, Rad Smith, was one of the most gifted athletes I ever met. He went into karate as a college sprinter and swimmer. He was a tall (six foot three) young man with a lean muscular build. And he was FAST. But you know what? Rad used to talk a lot about his favorite practitioner - Bobby Campbell. Rad would tell me that he was faster and stronger than Bobby, but Bobby had his number. And why? According to Rad, Bobby knew what you were going to do before you did it. Rad was in awe of that ability.

- Bill

[Dana Sheets]

I think when you say bring the shoulders "back and down" many people pull them into an unnatural position. I've heard it said as the "natural carry position" for the shoulders.

Now, if the pecs are over developed and the shoulders don't have full range of motion, then the "natural" position won't be so natural anymore.

What comes to mind are the videos I've seen of Kiyohide Shinjo fighting. His shoulders are in a natural carry position, his chest is open, his center is low.

His father, on the left in the photo below, shows shoulders that are down but not pointed forward. He has somewhat of a forward lean to his stance but that coming from the position of his legs and hips vis a vis his lower back. He's not crouching or rounding his back.


It takes some effort, especially for men, to open the chest enough to allow for relaxed and explosive movements with the shoulders in that carriage position.

[mhosea]

I think when you say bring the shoulders "back and down" many people pull them into an unnatural position. I've heard it said as the "natural carry position" for the shoulders.

I am not so sure that his father's shoulder position coincides with the so-called natural carry position for that back posture. Both sets of shoulders look forward to me. However, I think the difference in the degree of forwardness handily exemplifies what you are trying to say.

[maxwell ainley]

Thanks Bill for your reply .

Its obvious kanbun was passing on standards within the shu and ha concepts ,and it appears there was a difficulty passing on his performance style ,which as fragmented into many ha styles of performance .

We have been told this is natural evolution ,but via my use of some of the old quotes I have posted ,lots never grasped the kanbun performance style in the first place ,to me this contributes to the overall make up of what we now experience in modern times ,along with the true ha performances .

[maxwell ainley]

Similar things have happened in my craft ,of which I single out one specific motion of trowel action passed down mostly with the mega use of the smooth faced brick for accuracy, the cutting edge of the trowel was worn as straight has a dye ,yet its cutting position was to the bare minimum between the lower edge [harris] brick to be laid and the top edge of the lower brick ,a straight edge effect is being used by the trowel action cutting style to produce a clean accurate finish . most use the cutting action nowadays in a hapazard type motion.

[Bill Glasheen]

I enjoy your craftsman perspective, Max. I believe it offers a view similar to the one that Kanbun may have brought to his own craft.

lots never grasped the kanbun performance style in the first place

Are there specific aspects of the performance style that you see being lost in the transition and translation?

- Bill

[maxwell ainley]

I enjoy your craftsman perspective, Max. I believe it offers a view similar to the one that Kanbun may have brought to his own craft.

lots never grasped the kanbun performance style in the first place

Are there specific aspects of the performance style that you see being lost in the transition and translation?

- Bill

Bill Thanks for your perceptive reply .


Initially in this thread I mentioned three windows [Kanei ,Tomoyose,Toyama sensei's ] to Kanbun ,straight away what did they miss on performance ?,also for starters "kanbun never once demonstrated a full kata ,but once in the compound after leaving Japan after W.W 2".

Yet we see full kata performances by seniors ,yet this was not a part of day to day practice for Kanbun ,change the methodology change the result ,yet this does not imply he never taught full kata to say Shu level practice and above .
The performance springs from the methodology ,and the methodology as become diverse ,so we start to lose something from the first archetype performance style ,obviously I just use it as the archetype for this specific thread .

We have to fully take into account the time schedule involved in learning the Kanbun way and again this as been changed ,even Kanei himself abandonded the original time frame ,change the time frame change the result .

In masonery it was a seven year apprenticeship ,now its three years ,we lament the craftsman that is ,how can we pass on the craft in such a hurry ,Bill its amazing whats being lost .

[maxwell ainley]

Bill ,we have now lots of performance styles as you know ,to pass a performance style intact is very very difficult, obviously Kanbun was attempting this ,no mistake on this fact .

Rather than go straight to a specific something as been lost ,we must address a methodology first ,without this any performance becomes hapazard ,I am very firmly saying Kanbuns methodology is not fully present in dojo worldwide ,sure some have more ,but not the full methodology .

The methodology would have a certain spirit to it ,same for any other type of methodology .

Right Kanbuns methodology had accuracy ,now every one will have a different view of what accuracy represents to them ,and from long investigations within my own craft ,many do not seek accuracy ,and sometimes one thinks he's very accurate untill the carpenter comes along and flaws do exist ,my point is we can become delusional about what is accurate ,I say my movement is a perfect balanced straight line ,yet under a wee bit of experiment I find that there is a inch and a half sway with upper body ,which from a combat point of view indicates telegraphing ,yet I thought I moved in a untelegrapic mannerism .

[maxwell ainley]

Method /accuracy .


Overlaps etc.

In my craft I was taught; "measure twice build once",we can elaborate upon this too.

The idea is to get it right , not wrong ,if wrong all the work could be pulled down ,same with our form ,pulling things down or back to scratch is within all things ,I think my form is sound but a serious fight shatters my perception's .

Teaching accuracy involves the ability to see the bare essentials, in my craft its L.P.G. level plumb gauge, you have got to be capable of having a feeling for it ,it becomes natural ,in this fashion the hapazard is then quite easy to spot .
How does this translate to the fight ? dead easy , body language for one ,were as the three planes are inbuilt into your perceptions ,and things out of the ordinary are spontaenously noted.
Kanbun would have had to have this requirement in built within himself .

[maxwell ainley]

This leads to structure .

The angle of repose ,water finds a level ,were as a pile of soil tipped out of the back of a wagon forms a angle of repose

Basically the angle of repose is a natural angle ,its usually pyramidal .

"Kanbun taught natural movement"

Every one will have a different perception of natural movement ,it as been stated that;" a child moves in a natural manner "one point to maybe help this statement is ;they lack the grown ups major hangups ,yet here again this starts to become individual , a example of influence to me in my childhood came from my granmother ,we had to learn to sit still in a upright posture ,no slouching figgeting etc, I found this upright to be unnatural at the time were nowadays its a natural part of me .

As a teacher of natural movement Kanbun would have had a built in ability to utilise the already present natural ability of a student .

In other words utilse aspects that fit in with Sanchin and balance other things that do not,from a simple knowledge of body languge and observation its obvious in a student the muscles for holding the upright posture are present or not .

Musubi dachi the lungs are in expanded breathing in [ up right posture ],with the sinking and change to heiko dachi in human terms we would have fullfilled the term natural posture ,in other words we have created a human angle of repose down to root of the base ,at this point in up right the lungs are not resisting or fighting against gravity ,they like the apple that discovered gravity .

[Bill Glasheen]

Max

I agree that "natural movement" is key. However the caveat is so very important. That caveat would be - in what context?

When we are facing The Grim Reaper, what is "natural" is very different than what is natural when we are at rest or performing mundane tasks.







Like you, I look at structure and function. However I'm mindful of the fact that it makes no sense to thwart what the reptilian brain (our amygdala) will "naturally" make us do before the conscious brain has a chance to kick in. Quite the contrary, the beauty of what works in our system exists in the degree to which we'll be building on what already exists within us.

The foundation is there. If we want an effective martial system of movement, we must work with what years of evolution has designed for us.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Interesting that in the middle photo we see the Tony Blauer 'Spear' exactly as he teaches it...even with the fingers into a spread.

[Jake Steinmann]

Interesting that in the middle photo we see the Tony Blauer 'Spear' exactly as he teaches it...even with the fingers into a spread.

We use that photo a lot during PDR courses. Tom Arcuri did a great dissection of it during his seminar at Sityodtong this past November. Great teaching tool.