Let discuss cooperative drills

[maxwell ainley]

But even so, you always keep wondering…as good as these KDrills variations are …should they really be the focus of real life violent defensive action…or should we separate them from the ‘other drills’ the Kata bunkai…Kata we study with a view to effective response action from the so called ‘mushin’ _

Separate them from activity for which they were originally designed for?

So what ‘Activity’ let’s see:

The intelligent practitioner must ask himself: to what end, the founders of such drills envisioned them to accomplish. NOT…MIND YOU…THE DRILLS ARE USELESS…BUT WHAT WAS THE THRUST BEHIND THEIR DEVELOPMENT?

I agree that such practice gets a student to learn to interact with the style, his own body and the body of an opponent…but so does bunkai application [the other prearranged drills]

Can you mix and match the practices of bunkai and KDrills to achieve a certain desirable ‘operant conditioning’ useful in both real street defense and sparring matches, which I feel are also essential in developing a certain confidence, conditioning and surety when standing your ground against a strong opponent who wants to ‘conquer’ you with slamming physical and mental force?

Yes and no, depending on how the drill mechanics are presented…here we all have our opinions…and all opinions should be respected …matters not what passions are triggered on the floor or on the forums.

So back to the point…what were the KDrills designed for? After all we had the very effective bunkai from our katas…that handle the dynamics and distance we will be up against in a real fight…not a ‘dueling’ encounter…which is the point we should also concern ourselves with in these discussions.

So ‘what are you getting at, Van’

OK….

Van sensei ,

Its quite obvious Why Kanei created the K drills ,a new era ,a changing syllabus that was different in the short term to his fathers ,that warranted new methods .

The student was exposed to a broader format much more rapidly than in years gone by ,so a more premature exposure to kumite would be within this new framework ,for newcomers ,the K drills plugged in temporary form that new transition ,and they wth chopping and changing came down to this day ,plus something for the dan ranked .

[Van Canna]

Good way of looking at it, Max

BTW...is Liverpool 'footy' on top of the league now?

Have you seen the new Man/United stadium?

When playing 'footy' I was dangerous to sleep with _some damsel would say... I used to kick her in my sleep.

You might call that ...'horizontal kumite' very good 'operant conditioning'

[Bill Glasheen]

Hopefully we can keep the side show battles to a minimum. In my view, they are a distraction. They've been going on for some time - completely independent of any one subject.

I have different impressions, Van, of the myriad sources of recent "activity." Perhaps you aren't aware of it. It's been going on for some time, and in several forums. Most people aren't even aware of the particulars, and frankly that's a good thing. That's the way we want it.

Please... let's put this to rest. We are all gentlemen and gentlewomen, and there is too much fun to be had in life. All these things have a way of working themselves out anyhow.

Back to the subject at hand.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Here is Master Thompson

Uechi Kanei added material taught in this art. He devised a set of preliminary and supplementary exercises to warm up the student and to teach him basic karate skills.

He also created five bridging katas, which serves as stepping stones between the three main kata taken from Pangai-noon.

He also devised several pre-arranged sparring drills designed to teach the skills needed for free style sparring.

Well, there you have it. Mr. Thompson is telling us that bunkai and kumite have a different focus…and this is what many people use at the base of their analysis, and dissent…which is a natural consequence of argument.

Thanks for your postings, Van. Always a pleasure.

A few points.

• I agree that what some refer to as "The Kdrills" (e.g. Kyu and/or Dan Kumite) are "designed to teach the skills needed for free style sparring." Indeed! In fact... I am banking on it.
  
  In the past 25 years of teaching, I have a rule in my dojo that sparring isn't allowed until someone has learned Sanchin, Kanshiwa, the hojoundo, Kanshiwa bunkai, kotekitae, ashikitae, ukemi, and Kyu Kumite. I am COUNTING on the collection of those activities doing exactly what Jim is saying they do - prepare the student for jiyu kumite. Because I have been so strict with this, I've been able to crank through thousands of students with just minor injuries and no (zero, zilch, nada) lawsuits. And IF SOMEONE DOES SUE, I am counting on the record to support my case that I did everything I could to prepare the student for sparring before I let them do it.
  
  For those who don't live in the sUe S of A, maybe this doesn't resonate. It does here. I kinda like my home, and don't want to lose it and all other possessions because some jackass ambulance chaser wants to steal my money for a home on the river.
  
  Thank you Uechi Kanei (et al). Call it McKarate if you wish, but operational excellence and the well worn path have their legal and practical advantages.
• Strictly speaking, Okinawan karate has 3 types of fighting: bunkai kumite, yakusoku kumite, and jiyu kumite. Kyu and Dan Kumite - what some refer to as the "Kdrills" - are yakusoku kumite. They are sort of for sparring, but CAN serve other purposes as well. There are myriad things you can do in those two exercises that you can't in typical sport sparring.
• It's worth mentioning that there are other yakusoku kumite associated with Uechi Ryu. There are several that are quite old, that few do any more. The Shinjo family has a very nice yakusoku kumite. And Shohei Ryu has their own as well. Some are more "sport" oriented. Some have some self-defense applications in them. And I've made up my own. There's nothing religious about them, and IMO they shouldn't necessarily all be thrown into one bucket as all one and the same.

My 2 cents for the day.

- Bill

[gmattson]

Van says:

Well, there you have it. Mr. Thompson is telling us that bunkai and kumite have a different focus…and this is what many people use at the base of their analysis, and dissent…which is a natural consequence of argument. . . But what of the KDrills? Why is he not including the drills “to teach the student the application of kata” where self defense ought to trigger from?

What I read that Jim says:

The two person routines were introduced in order to teach the student timing, distancing, control, and harmony between you and your partner. It is up to each student to push his partner to improve, but yet at the same time, not to overwhelm a person physically and/or mentally. It is important to force your partner to block and punch strongly, in order to make the pre-arranged exercise as realistic as possible.

NAMES AND TYPES OF PRE-ARRANGED EXCERCISES:

Pre-arranged # 1 Pre-arranged # 2
Kicking exercise Kyu Kumite
Dan Kumite Kata Bunkai
Kote Kitai Jyu Kumite

Hmmmm, sounds familiary. Seems as though I said the same thing, but if Jim says it, perhaps it is more credible. Thanks Jim. . .

[Van Canna]

Hopefully we can keep the side show battles to a minimum. In my view, they are a distraction.

Please... let's put this to rest. We are all gentlemen and gentlewomen, and there is too much fun to be had in life. All these things have a way of working themselves out anyhow.

Back to the subject at hand.

- Bill

Fine with me, I said what I felt was the right thing to say at the moment that I felt it...and so be it. I wasn't aware of any other undercurrents, and I have no interest in knowing about it either.

I had some foolish thought that possibly we could work on mending fences somehow...witness the interaction now between me and Jorvick....

The two of us, as gentlemen, have decided to put past differences aside and continue on as good friends.

I have also offered an olive branch to Jim Hawkins, if he is still around.

We should be able to set an example for the younger generations reading the forums....more and more I realize this.

[Bill Glasheen]

I will second something that Van states.

Much of typical karate practice - not just Uechi - seems to be focused on "the duel." For years I spent a lot of time being focused on this as well.

My experience with aikido and a special forces instructor opened my eyes to new self-defense and combat possibilities. Aikido has many-on-one randori as a requirement at advanced levels. I've done my time there - enough to be thoroughly humiliated. And I've seen with my own eyes (and had some rare moments) that it is possible to get good at this.

Even MMA is obsessed with the duel. It's great stuff, but... The many-on-one scenarios are the ones that have concerned me the most in life. I've had a few, and I consider myself lucky to have escaped in one piece.

This is why I invented my "barroom brawl" exercise. Maybe one day...

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Bill

Strictly speaking, Okinawan karate has 3 types of fighting: bunkai kumite, Yakusoku kumite, and Jiyu kumite. Kyu and Dan Kumite - what some refer to as the "Kdrills" - are Yakusoku kumite. They are sort of for sparring, but CAN serve other purposes as well. There are myriad things you can do in those two exercises that you can't in typical sport sparring….Some are more "sport" oriented. Some have some self-defense applications in them. And I've made up my own. There's nothing religious about them, and IMO they shouldn't necessarily all be thrown into one bucket as all one and the same.

True enough...

I also did say in this thread, my post, that the skills of bunkai/Kdrills do have some overlapping usefulness….but if taken to extreme, they can also program nasty habits for the streets.here is Rory

When I started talking about it, it was really clear that people were training in SD without any idea whatsoever of how attacks happen.

They were training hard but they weren’t training for anything that actually existed. So I wrote a short pamphlet for the seminars, “The Rhinoceros and the Unicorn” purely to save me some time by trying to establish a common vocabulary.


Then, in 2002 a lot of very bad ##### happened and I started writing to get it out of my head. “Meditations on Violence” is from those two things coming together.

Q: Which message do you want readers of the book to take to heart the most?


A: Just one? Grumble grumble… You are responsible for your own safety. Not your sensei, not your mommy. If your ass is ever in deep #####, they will not be there, you will. Get the best information from the best sources you can and do not disregard it because it is not pretty. Or go ahead and disregard it but don’t be coming whining to me.

Q: OK, anything else you’d like to add?


A: Learn how attacks happen. Too many people train like they are collecting tools. Mechanics don’t study tools, they study cars and what can go wrong with them. Doctors don’t take classes on Scalpel 101, they study diagnostics and anatomy. If you want to defend yourself, learn about violence. It is useless to have a thousand answers if you don’t know the question.

Like I said…I still teach K drills and in a very effective manner, I might add. I also have a decent judo/jiu/jutsu background...i came to uechi from that background. Yet, if anyone tries to sell me on the idea that the Kdrills are 'self defense' well...

The fact is that Uechi teaches that the kata movements reign supreme in self defense programming.

_in my opinion _ such 'operant conditioning' we should strive to over/program with regard to street defense, first and foremost and see how it fares against habitual acts of violence, that don't include the Kdrill exchanges routines, which are an excellent medium for a different reason.

George, I don’t disagree here at all with you, never did.

I am just trying to point out the context of what is being said/written as related to two different aspects of confrontation dynamic….something that people always take the wrong way, even as pointed out by violence professionals, like Rory Miller in his book.

Let’s try again for one last time and see if we can agree:

1. Jim Thompson wrote > He also devised several pre-arranged sparring drills designed to teach the skills needed for free style sparring <

I have obtained the same information from other Okinawan sources over the years and posted the same on my forum.

Jim clearly meant to say here that some sparring drills were designed to teach the skills needed for free style sparring.

Free style sparring is easily defined.[two persons facing one another beginning at distances that can be chosen, initially, then ‘played with’ for the scoring of points with a view to fully ‘overwhelm’ the opponent with powerful blows_ the kind you will remember me taking out some of the 'intruders' in the Boston dojo_ including slammer take downs.



Jim did not say drills ‘designed for street defense’ the implication being that the kata bunkai were designed for this street application.

Street defense and ‘dueling’ [ as also Bill points out] such as you see in free style matches/competition, that Kanei saw on the horizon, are two different animals because of the type of attacks/dynamics/ and sudden distancing predicaments a Uechi-ka would experience in street fights as opposed to a free sparring match which is much more controllable.


2. Then as you say he identified the prearranged TYPES OF PRE-ARRANGED EXCERCISES:

Pre-arranged # 1 Pre-arranged # 2
Kicking exercise Kyu Kumite
Dan Kumite Kata Bunkai
Kote Kitae Jyu Kumite_

3. The prearranged exercises that go to ‘sparring drills’ as written…for sparring…are …

Pre-arranged
Kicking exercise Kyu Kumite
Dan Kumite Kote Kitae Jyu Kumite_

Kote Kitae …is a drill that benefits both kata bunkai application as well as free style slam matches.

I think everyone will agree that bunkai is not a 'sparring drill' not in my book as an old tournament fighter.

4. Sensei Thompson was clear when he wrote.

The emphasis of Sanchin is the mental principles, but basic physical principles are taught too.

The remaining seven kata's are sometimes called the fighting kata, because they show the self-defense aspects of Uechi-Ryu more clearly than Sanchin.

The purpose of bunkai is to teach the student the application of kata (Bunkai means application).There are three different kata that have formalized bunkai's, Kanshiwa, Seisan, and Sanseiryu.

He clearly makes a distinction between bunkai= self defense aspects of Uechi-Ryu, and other drills= sparring training.

He did write

The two person routines were introduced in order to teach the student timing, distancing, control, and harmony between you and your partner. It is up to each student to push his partner to improve, but yet at the same time, not to overwhelm a person physically and/or mentally.

It is important to force your partner to block and punch strongly, in order to make the pre-arranged exercise as realistic as possible.

Yes...and this of course applies to bunkai as well.

Now_ The timing, distancing, control, and harmony between you and your partner. By these very words we can see that this applies to sparring/dueling skills…not necessarily a street fight situation when you are suddenly attacked. Dueling/dueling...is what this is...Dueling...you spar, you duel...period.

In a street fight we don’t want any ‘harmony’with the attacker…

and distancing in a street fight means two things…in my book...you close in fast and destroy…or you turn tail and disappear…if you have time to play harmony and distance control in a real fight…it becomes ‘dueling’ in the eyes of the law and you are in trouble.

Try telling a judge/jury...well I was trying to control distance in the fight....they will tell us..why did you not just leave if you had the distance control?

But as to the Kdrills....You know very well how we, your fighting seniors, used the right drills, as enumerated by Jim Thompson_ to become fierce competitors in tournaments and score all those wins and reputation, individually and for your dojo.

[kempo-jujitsu]

this is an interesting thread. I am not a uechi practitioner so i don't post much. but i used to argue til i was blue in the face that self defense and sparring is not the same thing.

but from talking to other okinawan karate practitioners i kind of learned that it depends on how you look at it.

classically, speaking to karateka in general. they always say that yakusoku kumite bridges the gap between kata, and jiyu kumite. and ultimately jiyu kumite is supposed to be the laboratory for testing the techniques found in kata. after all, aren't the movements in yakusoku kumite also from kata? are they not demonstrating basic ways of using those techniques and principles? of course they also teach many other things, and i think they are fun to play with.

my argument was that kata bunkai applications were better suited for sudden, specific attacks. not in a flurrying frenzy and very dynamic situation that is sparring. and that it's very difficult to get off a specific sequence from kata in sparring.
but if you think about it, most of the time street fights are a flurrying frenzy too, often moreso than sparring. the whole idea is to be able to use your kata techniques and principles in an uncooperative and unpredictable environment isn't it? i think kumite drills are a great way to bridge the gap rather than just throwing students into free fighting. (not that anyone here is claiming otherwise)
so we've established the link between kata and yakusoku kumite, it seems though, at least to me that some people fail to "complete the circle"...ie...they don't see the continuing relationship from jiyu kumite back to kata and it's application. to me you learn techniques and concepts from kata, you practice and experiment with them statically and pick them apart in yakusoku kumite, then you go try them out in a fluid dynamic environment and try to make them work. doesn't matter if you win or lose, what matters is what you learn. if you try and try and try to work something in sparring and it doesn't work...just maybe there is something wrong with it then.

what i learned is that most people cant seem to apply kata bunkai in sparring simply because they never try to. they are more worried about winning or losing than learning. there is quite a bit of truth to that statement IMO. though i admit it was a bit hard to admit that I learned that alot of people including myself used to use sparring as a proving ground, rather than a testing/learning ground.
so i think that the way in which you view and practice sparring can effect your results.

that gives some credibility to those who say "if you can't use it in sparring, how do you expect to be able to use it in an even worse scenario..ie..a real fight?"

some great instructors on this thread have said that yakusoku kumite was designed to teach the skills for jiyu kumite, but jiyu kumite should also have a link back to kata bunkai shouldn't it? how many of you actively try to perform bunkai in free sparring?

back to yakusoku: i think the beautiful thing about it is that it allows you something that kata, nor jiyu kumite offer you. and that is the ability to focus and concentrate on one specific thing with a partner (not opponent)...
when doing one step sparring, three steps, whatever you do, it alows you to stop the action and focus.
for example one sensei i know uses yakusoku kumite to teach target awareness. sure the pattern is set as a baseline, but: defend against the first attack and FREEZE...now you can examine where you are, what you are doing, and understand not only how and why it works the way it does, but what other options are available to you from the same position relative to your partner.
what other targets are available to you from this position? ie..you just learned that when someone punches in this or that manner (which can cover quite a general area)..he is open here, here, and here for counterattacks. next you can examine what is NOT available to you and understand why, then ask yourself..well if i wanted to kick here, what would i have to do differerntly? sometimes you are in great position for an elbow strike, but in horrible position for a kick.

the same sensei also teaches a concept he calls dependand and independant movement. if you just do the kumite as it's taught, each move is sort of dependant on the other...the footwork sets up the uke waza, the block sets up the counter...etc.
but you also develope an awareness, and the ability to automatically do things from certain positions without thinking about it, sometimes you will ask yourself..wow, how did i do that? (great feeling)

to add to what i previously mentioned, you can use yakusoku kumite, bunkai, SD techniques sort of as mini kata. using independant movement ..in other words you take each "piece" of the technique and play off of it. step in and block, you've already seen what other targets are available, what is not available, and know why. now you can just go off and create your own technique from this point. you will realize, when i'm here and he's touching me in this way...i have a throw. if i'm grabbing him in this manner, i have other options. next you do the first two "pieces" of the kata/technique and play off of it.
so...it's great fun to play with things in this way. as you do things this way, and over time you increase the intensity, and mix it up more and more..before you know it you're free sparring.

other times it feels great to get back to the basics and just do it the classical traditional way and see what "pops out" at you.

to me the greatest thing it teaches is entering. it is the key to everything you do, or fail to do.

i'm not trying to be argumentative, just adding my ..maybe it's a little more than .02 but...there you have it.

[Van Canna]

Remember that honest disagreement makes these forums work.

There are many ways to look at the tools we train with and how they work when required to work in many different ways…and they all do work, in one way or another for better or for worse.

As I have maintained in the past…any drill, can be either useful or not useful in a certain theatre of action, depending on the design of it…which means that certain drills are useful for one reason and possibly not for another…yet generally useful.

In order to understand this: Any confrontation/squaring off , from dojo friendly, to open competition, to street defense….carries a certain degree of stress…the more critical the event…the more stressful the body/mind response.

This is how we should look at how we train and make adjustments, which also include the understanding of violence dynamics as Rory points out.

When TMA students are stressed for combat …they function with their mid-brain, what some experts refer to as the puppy dog brain_ only the most simple, positive training lessons will be retrieved from their hard drive.

And, as always, in that stressful moment they will fight the way they’ve trained – the way you’ve programmed them.


When you look at any type of prearranged sparring practice, you are really looking at a ‘diluted fight’ that is training your mind to tell your body to react. Not a problem.

K Drills are very good for developing your body and mind for eventual free sparring matches one on one. Many do not go there at all. I think it is a mistake.

K drills _ do provide some attributes that prepare you for a free attack and defense sparring match as well. OK?

1. They are a form of cardio vascular exercise that is often missing in karate training -

the particular way I teach them…[not that my way is better than other ways...just another personal way] makes them very demanding on your endurance and very nasty with the attacks thrown from blind angles, from closer ranges, and from unexpected Uke that ratchets up the adrenaline.

2. The practice 'assists' in removing the fear beginners have about being hit, hitting someone and conditions them that it isn't the end of the world if they get nailed now and then. OK

3. They *can* be beneficial in improving ones coordination, balance, sense of timing, Tai sabaki, mai ai, etc

4. They *can* create some self-confidence in ones ability to react / defend ones self.

5. They *can* be a lot of fun.

The danger begins to lurk when students are led into the belief that successful prearranged kumite equates to successful self-defense. Many really believe this all the way.

The problem being that many people who practice them over time, over and over, develop unrealistic expectations about it, instead of understanding the specific dynamics of them…and in real encounters they behave as if in prearranged kumite.

There have been a few people out there that interpreted prearranged kumite as more self defense training, went out in the street, fought like they were in kumite and got hammered by the other guy that just wanted to get it over quickly without waiting for exchanges.

I know this from debriefings.


Successful Bunkai comes a bit closer to the real thing , yet it is still not a complete picture as nothing really is when it comes to unpredictable violence. But the mechanics of bunkai are totally different...they emphasize the 'shut down and finish' _

Keep remembering the ‘puppy brain’ that will take you over whether you like it or not…it is a biological fact.


There are lots of skills you can practice in prearranged kumite _ but there is another level when talking about self defense. Some of the skills of kumite can aid self defense, some not so much. If you doubt this, go read Rory's book.

Techniques of prearranged drills in uechi have very little of Uechi kata in them. Think about it.

One glaring example is people in Kumites not protecting their faces, and always throwing punches that you don’t see in kata, which is more reliant on the open hand. OK?

As to ‘working applications’ in the strict sense of the word…

Prearranged kumites, unlike bunkai, are not the closest thing to self-defense.

In real life, people don't square off in a field or big room, and bounce around taking turns in punching and kicking… OK?

Rather, people in real fights are more likely to suddenly shove you, or grab your arm or throat in a crowded area.

Though it is highly unlikely that many attacks will ever come when you are squaring off with another waiting for attack. I do believe that free sparring in unknown arenas _ for which Kdrills_ prepare you some…is a great activity for action/reaction and also as a way to get people comfortable with being hit and somewhat overcoming their fear.

Bottom line...keep practicing K Drills...but understand what you are feeding your 'puppy' inside of you, believe it...he is really there.

[Van Canna]

On the subject of the history and design of the K Drills, as reported by Jim Thompson...I have asked Breyette sensei to please have his beautiful and talented wife, professional interpreter, look in the old Kyohn, to see what it has to say about Kanei's views of the Drills.

But here is a bit of history that might ruffle some undergarments...yet very interesting to consider...

The origins of the Kyu and Dan Kumite sets can be found in the oldest
Renzoku Kumite, no longer seen in the world or practiced by any Uechi
association, save one...

It was actually created by Toyama Sensei in the
late 50's, and in the early 60's was broken up by Kanei Sensei into Kyu and
Dan Kumite sets, in separately-sectioned parts.

Toyama Sensei's purpose was
to cover pretty much all the possible attacks a karate person could throw,

....purpose was
to cover pretty much all the possible attacks a karate person could throw,



..... cover pretty much all the possible attacks a karate person could throw,


.... much all the possible attacks a karate person could throw,




designing the original set to be a continuous non-stop (and quite lengthy)

drill that could eventually pick up great speed and power, to prepare the
mindset and teach quick reaction to a threat.

No punch-stop-wait.for.block-stop-pose-step-punch-block.... Fast and
furious non-stop action between two practitioners for the purpose of honing
fast reflexes and responsive technique.

It was actually practiced as he created it for about a year, but the
students complained that the style of performance required was not the same
as they were taught by Kanei Sensei; it was far too difficult to perform and
remember.

So Kanei Sensei supervised breaking it into 6 parts, and switched
several attacks and defenses around to make it a 6-part stop-go drill set,
rather than a fluid and continuous non-stop set that the students found so
difficult to perform.


This is why today it is said that he "created" the
sets, but he didn't; he just re-choreographed the original.

Today some of the older seniors in Okinawa
will tell (if specifically asked) that there was an older "Dan Kumite" but it was very
difficult to perform.

Zankai remembers it...

Then Kanei Sensei asked Toyama Sensei to create a 5 part Kyu set from the other techniques, and to make it simple, as an intro to the more complex Dan
Kumite.

And so came the Kyu Kumite set, choreographed by Kanei Sensei using sequences created by Toyama Sensei.

This just for educational purposes


I shall report here any translation from the 'old book' {Kanei's writings, really] of any reference to the K drills by Master Uechi, again for educational purposes.

[gmattson]

Excellent and balanced post and one I pretty much agree with. When Greg Postal was working on his thesis and DVD, we discussed the options he had in presenting the kyu kumite. He didn't wish to make it so complex that 1. people could get hurt doing it and 2. It would no longer be an "entry" drill for newer students.

His final work, in my estimation, accomplished all of the requirements I posed to him while presenting something that was quite original. Note that continuous action was one of the sets.

Regarding the bunkai vs k-drills. . . you mention that the bunkai is more realistic because of the "shut down" factor and how the k-drills might be reinforcing some type of "hold-back" or "forgiveness" factor.

I would have to say that the way bunkai were/are taught, (one move at a time) any failure to subdue an actual opponent might trigger the same kind of "shock" factor you are saying would occur from someone relying on the k-drills. My feeling is that neither drills or bunkai are sufficient for preparing a student for an actual attack. He may have the tools but there is still a variable of "mindset" that must be introduced into this equation. Unless you believe in the historical reasons for doing kata, along with "mushin", where you enter a calm mindset and are able to perform without fear, etc., etc., then how do you train your student in the dojo for this "variable"?

[kempo-jujitsu]

Regarding the bunkai vs k-drills. . . you mention that the bunkai is more realistic because of the "shut down" factor and how the k-drills might be reinforcing some type of "hold-back" or "forgiveness" factor.

I would have to say that the way bunkai were/are taught, (one move at a time) any failure to subdue an actual opponent might trigger the same kind of "shock" factor you are saying would occur from someone relying on the k-drills. My feeling is that neither drills or bunkai are sufficient for preparing a student for an actual attack. He may have the tools but there is still a variable of "mindset" that must be introduced into this equation. Unless you believe in the historical reasons for doing kata, along with "mushin", where you enter a calm mindset and are able to perform without fear, etc., etc., then how do you train your student in the dojo for this "variable"?

in a way this is why i think students should try to use their self defense techniques, whether bunkai or otherwise (kempo techniques for example) in a sparring environment. not necessarily a "point sparring" environment. but against someone who's resisting, attacking more realistically (likely with protective gear). of course certain things must be omitted for safety however.
just in case your intitial self defense doesn't work the way you intended, the fight doesn't stop, it continues. I think sparring should simulate this as close as possible. as i said previously, i never actually tried to use specific defenses in sparring either, in fact the idea is pretty new to me as well, nor had i ever seen anyone else actually try it. so really, how can you know if you can really use it if you dont try it?
many people, including me used to basically say that if your bunkai failed, if your self defense technique failed, then you go into sparring mode more or less. basically what that means is if the defense fails, you throw away your art and just "spar" with the person, and unfortunately most schools do "point sparring" rather than self defense sparring.

maybe the difference is the way in which you view sparring and practice it. (not you personally, but in general)

[Van Canna]

Good question, George.

A good way to answer that is to bring up the concept of ‘Zanshin’ …

In the martial arts, Zanshin means having no break in our activity, because there is no time to take back a stride or block and fix it.

It also means going beyond technique, because we cannot force the situation to conform to the technique.

The angle of the strike and the force of the strike must be adjusted immediately to the energy of the partner, who must be seen as a real life opponent and he must be ‘finished’…stopped from reloading/coming back at you.

It means to follow through, to stay with the action you have begun until you get the results the technique/response action was meant to achieve, i.e., to stop the opponent from ‘reloading’ and launching another strike as we allow him to do in the kumites.

Bad habits to feed to our ‘puppy' inside of us.

In bunkai we mostly don’t have this problem….the design is different, or we should make it different/ I try to make it different…couldn’t care less if some idiot says ‘it’s not Uechi’ ….

it is Uechi…it is the idiot not recognizing it.

This means to me that a ‘continuity’ is built into bunkai, and I encouraged it…as I see the initial move just for what it is…an initial move…which I teach the student to use as an entry and disrupt to set up for the finish and to stay with the finish until you alone decide it is finished.

In bunkai we generally don’t have a ‘reloading’ of the opponent…do we? Ad if we see it…we make sure we take it out of him.

We see this problem in movies where a victim shoots a real bad guy, but does not make sure he is finished and walks away…then we see the bad guy, get up and start to attack all over again.

Bunkai is self defense as triggered from kata… calling for a finish mind set…

Kumites focus is on sparring/ with mutual exchanges, my turn your turn etc. / and the targeting of kumites does not even come close to the targeting of bunkai.

Not that kumite is bad…but that it has a different focus. It’s all good.


One very simple example is the last sequence of Dan kumite`…the left kick is blocked, then there is a takedown, , a supposed finish with some half ass stomp to the nuts, then a roll over of the 'enemy', a breaking of contact, an assumption the opponent is done for, and we watch him as he gets off the floor.

I don’t allow that at all, when telling the students I want to use this part of the drill as an operant conditioning for street defense.

I want the defender to stay with the Uke after the roll, pin him down with a knee and arm and throw a finish strike and prevent him from moving until he [the defender] gives him permission to get up.

In bunkai I use the same concept of follow through and control which is heavily slanted to attacking the attack and making sure the ‘launching platform' of the Uke is weakened.

That is what I see in the kata concepts. But that's me...and that's the way it stays...I don't care who rolls in his grave...

What has been beyond me all these years is why people get so bent out of shape instead of acknowledging Uechi gives us the right tools for the different jobs…and let it go at that.

Bunkai for self defense…kumites for free fighting/competition whatever…that in so doing also develop defensive attributes.


It is really insane to see all the pointless arguments and the vaporized friendships over this idiocy.

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[Chris McKaskell]

It is really insane to see all the pointless arguments and the vaporized friendships over this idiocy.

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Amen to that, bro.