Let discuss cooperative drills

[Bill Glasheen]

Couple of thoughts, Ray.

if we have to fight we will have to fight MMA guys and boxers ,wrestlers etc.

Please read what Van has been posting above. Why do you think he's been emphasizing the bunkai kumite over the yakusoku kumite?

We need to be careful about "inbreeding" in martial arts. You still have your head stuck in sport mode. That is the right answer to the wrong question. The street and habitual acts of physical violence are rarely about textbook sport fighting.

Sport is great for sharpening the saw. Sport preserves elements of the art through martial play. But it rarely is going to reproduce the dynamics of a situation where you need to defend yourself, or take out a very bad person.

I would say that the shuto, backfist one knuckle punch is a good open hand combination, in fact a good CQB combination....but it is not really tested in a "Western" manner

Do Westerners have different HAPV? I think not, unless you want to jump farther up the force continuum.

Don't get hung up on specific sequences. I care more about investigating useful mechanics that I can adapt to myriad situations. And for what it's worth, the shuto/uraken/shoken is more about a sport/distance version of the elbow/uraken/shoken. The latter is where I find the most interesting mechanics coming into play in all kinds of different street scenarios.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Jorvik

both I and Van love "Poor Bob" and he is a 21st Century man, much better than a punch bag or a wooden dummy. so with out sacrifing the old........or even disgarding it ......we can train safely and realistically ..and use the new

Well, yeah…Ray…and I think we like these kinds of ‘impact drills’ for very good reasons…we have heard before this work coined as ‘stupid bag drills’ ….it goes to show you the idiocy of such thinking.

The boxer does them…. The boxer is training to “chop down” his opponent in the ring.

Impact training conditions the body to withstand the impact caused by delivering a blow. The purpose of hitting the bag or other implements is to strengthen the wrist, shoulder, legs, hips, and back, so they do not collapse under the pressure of delivering a strike, and this is aided by the correct breathing mechanism as impact occurs.

I think it was Mark who wrote here on my forum once that unless your ‘weapon’ [striking limb] is not conditioned…then it will ‘shatter’ on impact upon the hard body of the opponent.

What makes ‘Bob’ even more valuable, as you know, is that it facilitates the embedding of the human targets pathways into our striking because it is like striking a person, front and rear. This allows you to work on the precision of the strikes.

[Van Canna]

Posted by bill

We need to be careful about "inbreeding" in martial arts.

I always liked that "inbreeding" word.

Most martial arts training is done through imitation, and most of it is codified.

The paradox is that in certain exercises…we are taught to maintain or create distance and then engage the other person in calculated movements. This is fine for free fighting practice where you are bound by certain rules.

But in a real street fight…there is no way to not get hit if you maintain your distance where you allow your opponent to reload.


We must remember that survival reaction time is the process of perceiving a survival threat and programming the appropriate survival response.

I have to agree with bill here where no matter how tough any sporting match can be, and they can be very tough indeed…the midbrain will nor be perceiving a survival threat due to the nature of the exchange.

In a true self defense situation, out on the street, when suddenly up against the more common habitual acts of violence, real violence, the midbrain receives a very strong signal of survival threat….the primal brain’s response action will be totally different and reactive to a solidly entrenched survival motor program.

Therefore, enhancing a student’s proper self preservation reaction time and effective response action….is a matter of increasing the process of perceiving a threat and initiating a survival motor program that should trigger via operant conditioning training specifically designed for this.

[Van Canna]

Blauer wrote

There are a few who are doing multiple assailant drills, but there is always something missing: real time evolving dialogue and reciprocal risk. In other words, once the fight started, both the role player and the defender had equal opportunity. There is always the aspect of consent and awareness.

If you are doing scenarios and only one-person attacks, there is no real risk. The “dump” is created by performance anxiety, not a potential threat, or the fear of failure. Many people do not completely grasp this.

And those two components are the missing ingredients in a real dynamic simulation where a true “emotional blueprint” is created. If there is no dialogue and no unpredictable risk for both parties, the simulation is partial.

You can’t jump in a swimming pool and wrestle with a rubber shark and then believe you’re ready to handle Jaws.

[Van Canna]

A good friend

Van…If we were to design kumites to incorporate more of what seems to work best, like hook kicks, hook punches, uppercuts and overhands, because they generate more power from hard to “catch” angles and because of body’s torque, we would be turning out more self defense prepared students.

When a student finds himself/herself in a sudden confrontation, he/she knows deep inside that an attack, even if empty handed, will come from a number of trajectories and lines of force not trained for such as kooks, uppercuts, overhands, jabs, all thrown in rapid fire.

The more circular, hooking techniques, full-contact strikes also aim for the opponent's jaw, temples and kidneys, as we must learn to do in a self defense fight.

Yeah well…thanks…it is worth thinking about it…but still…the way Uechi should work in bunkai applications from the kata…is for jamming/torpedoing the ‘launching platform’ of such blows by entering physically into the opponent’s ‘thought of striking’ , like we see in Samurai movies.

Entirely different concepts/dynamics at work.

[jorvik]

Bill
check out Rory's interview

http://psychjourney_blogs.typepad.com/warrior_traditions/

he makes a very good point he distiguishes between an assault and a fight. A fight is a fight but an Assault is were somebody creeps up on you by any method they can and launches a surprise attack ......we as martial artists have to think of both possibilities.

Quote
"We need to be careful about "inbreeding" in martial arts. You still have your head stuck in sport mode. That is the right answer to the wrong question. The street and habitual acts of physical violence are rarely about textbook sport fighting. "

No I don't Bill
I remember somebody once posted on these forums that he trained for the top 5 percent .....I had a good laugh at that one, there is an assumption that bad guys don't train I know of two world class boxers who are very bad people and will fight at the drop of a hat, I know of martial arts folks who have actually killed folks using their skills .........if you are in an Assault situation then you need to be able to use simple hard/effective techniques quickly..if you are in a fight then you have to be able to handle what folks throw at you....doesn't mean you have to throw your own stuff out the window, but it just means that you need to be able to handle what the general public are into now..maybe MMA, BJJ or Thai boxing.
As to acts of " habitual violence " this is a concept that has become traditionalised by some folks.Remember Bill in my job I get to read about this all day long.....people make too many wrong assumptions not all folks use the same techniques so it's silly to number them, the one I have seen most often is the kick to the groin followed by a right and left hook, I've even seen TKDers having a street fight .that looked fun

[AAAhmed46]

But jorvik, even the Boxers and thai boxers have weaknesses.

Ive boxed with boxers, and ive done alright, often even getting the upperhand with uechi-sabaki.

I know a guy in the MMA club i train at who got Knocked out by a uechi student whom he was trying to bully(preemptive strike for the win)

Alot of boxers are clueless in the clinch.

Alot of BJJ guys can be ground wizards but are practically retarded in terms of striking.

[jorvik]

Adam
The point that I am making is that you must be aware of the type of violence in your area and train against it " Chance favours the prepared mind"
for example, having read police reports from my area I don't practice wrestling of any sort and the reason is that I think it is flawed for street fighting, because in a streetfight the other guy won't always wrestle, he will jump to his feet and start kicking your head, or maybe one of his friends will..doesn't mean I won't get attacked by a wrestler, just means that you look at the percentages and try and work with them.......I much prefer Van's approach were he has folks holding poor Bob on the floor and using him as a shield against kicks.much more real world
and this goes right across the board..you must train the tools in your style to fit the circumstances of the day....a Uechi shuto to the neck will knock out a boxer.just gotta figure out how to make it land

[Bill Glasheen]

We need to be careful about "inbreeding" in martial arts. You still have your head stuck in sport mode. That is the right answer to the wrong question. The street and habitual acts of physical violence are rarely about textbook sport fighting.

No I don't Bill
I remember somebody once posted on these forums that he trained for the top 5 percent .....I had a good laugh at that one, there is an assumption that bad guys don't train I know of two world class boxers who are very bad people and will fight at the drop of a hat, I know of martial arts folks who have actually killed folks using their skills .........if you are in an Assault situation then you need to be able to use simple hard/effective techniques quickly..if you are in a fight then you have to be able to handle what folks throw at you....doesn't mean you have to throw your own stuff out the window, but it just means that you need to be able to handle what the general public are into now..maybe MMA, BJJ or Thai boxing.
As to acts of " habitual violence " this is a concept that has become traditionalised by some folks.Remember Bill in my job I get to read about this all day long.....people make too many wrong assumptions not all folks use the same techniques so it's silly to number them, the one I have seen most often is the kick to the groin followed by a right and left hook, I've even seen TKDers having a street fight .that looked fun

Adam
The point that I am making is that you must be aware of the type of violence in your area and train against it " Chance favours the prepared mind"
for example, having read police reports from my area I don't practice wrestling of any sort and the reason is that I think it is flawed for street fighting, because in a streetfight the other guy won't always wrestle, he will jump to his feet and start kicking your head, or maybe one of his friends will..doesn't mean I won't get attacked by a wrestler, just means that you look at the percentages and try and work with them.

All I needed to do here was wait. Sooner or later you'll contradict yourself. Methinks you just like to argue.

You argue best when you argue my point.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

As to acts of " habitual violence " this is a concept that has become traditionalised by some folks.

Nope... I know a strawman when I see it.

Habitual Acts of Physical Violence (HAPV) are just that, jorvik. They are the attacks that you are most likely to see in a physical confrontation. Period. End of story. They are what falls out on the table (the percentages) when you look at the data rather than assume or presume what's going on.

It's like Evidence-Based Medicine or EBM. It isn't anything newfangled or oldfangled for that matter. It's just medicine that the evidence shows works. Period. End of story. And it doesn't need to be a collection of therapies cast in stone. If epidemiologic patterns change and/or therapies change, then by definition that which is EBM changes.

You don't get to create the strawman that doesn't work, and attach it to a label that's associated with what works. That's just setting yourself up for oxymoronic statements.

- Bill

[jorvik]

Quote
"All I needed to do here was wait. Sooner or later you'll contradict yourself. Methinks you just like to argue.

You argue best when you argue my point. "

Sorry Bill, but I haven't condradicted myself ............Listen to Rory's interview he makes some good points one is that an asault is different from a fight..folks confuse the two.... Folks in bad areas find the Best martial arts.but when things get bad it doesn't restrict them.they may break a glass in your face before boxing you or headbutting you..........they are certainly not constrained by their style.they won't think "Am I in a good stance"....or is this in a kata?

[Bill Glasheen]

All I needed to do here was wait. Sooner or later you'll contradict yourself. Methinks you just like to argue.

You argue best when you argue my point.

Sorry Bill, but I haven't condradicted myself ............

Did too!

• When you threw up your "martial artist of doom" anecdotes, you argued against me.
• When you said "the percentages", you contradicted yourself and argued my point. HAPV is the percentages on the street (by definition).

Listen to Rory's interview

I'm not debating Rory, nor am I arguing against what he says. I'm debating you and your argument-by-improbable-anecdote approach to preparing for the street.

Your style of debate about this "street" subject is akin to the way many view plane travel. It's one of the safest means of travel available to us. And yet folks will quote the anecdote of a US Airways jet landing in the Hudson, and use that as a reason for driving instead of flying. The argument and the distorted perceptions are predictable, but the commonly-held beliefs about relative risk don't jive with the data.

- Bill

[Greg]

Sorry for not posting before now – been on a field exercise just south of the DMZ here in Korea where I’m now stationed and where it is considerably less pleasant (and somewhat colder) than Hawaii for the past couple of weeks.

The video linked at the beginning of the thread was not intended to stand alone but was rather an effort to give some brief visual examples of what I had elsewhere discussed in my article on the subject (Mattson Sensei has the updated copy however an earlier version was posted somewhere – I believe on this forum in fact). Since I was attempting to illustrate the points in the article the techniques demonstrated in the clip were deliberately slower and “cleaner” than they would be when drilled in the dojo. I would refer people back to the article for a more complete discussion of the merits and drawbacks of yakusoku kumite and details of the training progression I utilize for Kyu Kumite, however to briefly reiterate some of the positive and negative aspects of yakusoku kumite:

• • The kumite provide a common ‘language’ so that individuals from different dojo can train together (presuming of course that they are allowed to do so by their sensei)
  • Essential defensive skills such as timing, distancing, body movement and reception techniques can be isolated, practiced and observed by the sensei with corrections as needed
  • The sensei can control (to a degree) the variables in the exercise to push the student “enough” but not to the point that he or she is completely overwhelmed and either loses confidence in the defensive technique (typically due to incorrect execution) and/or suffers frequent injuries
  • The kumite by their nature are intrinsically predictable and students often begin to develop sloppy habits, e.g. retreating before an attack has been initiated, lackadaisical attacks, etc. This can be addressed by adding variation to the drills.

My personal belief is that the yakusoku kumite are tools – no more and no less. The utility of any tool depends both upon the quality of the tool itself and the skill of the craftsman – in this case the sensei and how he or she utilizes it in the dojo.

I am less concerned, honestly with what the original intent in creating these drills were, as long as I can use them for my particular purposes in training my students. Personally, I have very little interest in training students to be successful in the tournament arena so my intent is to use these drills as a training aid/stepping stone for self-defense purposes, remaining very conscious of their limitations. A good example of this can be found in the spinning back kick defense from Dan Kumite (a variation on sequence number three). The likelihood of facing a spinning back kick on the street is pretty small, however the concepts we practice (jamming, off-balancing) in this defense have profound SD applications and can be applied more broadly to any spinning type attack…

Every drill has limitations and drawbacks; some are too “realistic” others not enough so. In my dojo if no one ever gets hurt that’s an indication we’re not training hard enough (or are all perfect ); if people are constantly getting hurt, or if serious injuries are occurring, that’s a problem as well.

Ultimately, my feeling about the yakusoku kumite is that I prefer not to “throw the baby out with the bathwater.” I feel these drills are “good enough” to serve their purpose. If sensei choose to eliminate them from their curriculum, I hope they are substituting other training aids which fill the void.

[MikeK]

Hi Greg,
I was the one who was somewhat critical of the video (thanks for clearing up what's going on in regards to performance), and I would really like to read your article. GEM, if Grep gives permission could you print the updated article or give a link to the original?
Mike

[Bill Glasheen]

Hello, Greg!

First, thank you for serving our country. You're in a most critical region of the world serving the interest of democracy over tyranny and subjugation. Let's just say that no news is good news.

• The kumite provide a common ‘language’ so that individuals from different dojo can train together (presuming of course that they are allowed to do so by their sensei)
• Essential defensive skills such as timing, distancing, body movement and reception techniques can be isolated, practiced and observed by the sensei with corrections as needed
• The sensei can control (to a degree) the variables in the exercise to push the student “enough” but not to the point that he or she is completely overwhelmed and either loses confidence in the defensive technique (typically due to incorrect execution) and/or suffers frequent injuries
• The kumite by their nature are intrinsically predictable and students often begin to develop sloppy habits, e.g. retreating before an attack has been initiated, lackadaisical attacks, etc. This can be addressed by adding variation to the drills.

That is one of the best descriptions of these tools and how they are used, Greg. Nicely stated.

My personal belief is that the yakusoku kumite are tools – no more and no less. The utility of any tool depends both upon the quality of the tool itself and the skill of the craftsman – in this case the sensei and how he or she utilizes it in the dojo.

I am less concerned, honestly with what the original intent in creating these drills were, as long as I can use them for my particular purposes in training my students. Personally, I have very little interest in training students to be successful in the tournament arena so my intent is to use these drills as a training aid/stepping stone for self-defense purposes, remaining very conscious of their limitations.

Bravo!

In medicine, we call this (initially) an off-label use of the therapy. In some cases such as minoxidil for hair loss, the off-label use (now as Rogaine) ends up being the primary reason why the drug sells well on the market. Minoxidil initially was designed to treat hypertension. Dermatologists and cardiologists rarely speak to each other in patient management, but this pharmaceutical tool designed for the heart people turned out to be a bigger money maker for the beautiful people. And nobody in medicine is arguing.

And FWIW, the same is true for Sildenafil. Its initial use was for treating poor circulation in the heart muscle. We used it in several experiments back in my days in cardiology research. But the big money maker (under the market name Viagra) was in... treating poor circulation in the heart muscle. Any guys out there complaining?

The frustrating part of discussion of these drills for those who use them in training is these kinds of arguments.

• These drills were designed to teach people how to spar. Therefore...
• People perform these drills by backing up. Backing up is the wrong thing to do in a fight. Therefore...

To start with, I couldn't imagine being a martial arts teacher without having my students engage in sport sparring. Sparring isn't necessarily the desired end, but it's a means to an end. Anything that helps people get up to speed on THAT tool (sparring) and reduces the chance that they will get injured and lose valuable training time is good for me.

And as for the backing up thing... I don't teach that way. I teach people about working with the line of force. As such, strictly backing up is done either as simulating a classic flinch (your amygdala WILL make you back away from certain lethal threats) or to "bait" the person into a finishing technique. Otherwise the operative word is staying off of that line of force, and using that mantra as a means to staying on the offensive.

Are the drills primitive? Yes. Do they simulate real fighting? Certainly no more so than Sanchin. Is it useful? To the degree that a teacher can simplify a partner exercise to a few elements (while holding others constant), then it's a means to working on those elements when a teacher sees that there are learning opportunities.

Thanks for the inspiration, Greg!

Bill