Let's discuss cooperative drills - II

[Bill Glasheen]

The last thread on this topic reached a critical size mass. At some point the discussion needs to begin again to keep the thread manageable and to stay on topic.

Everyone knows that all exercises have limits. A bench press and a squat are great strength exercises, but they won't teach me how to play football. Then again I couldn't play professional football without those exercises. WE GET IT, FOLKS!!!

Please... Let's stay on topic. This thread isn't about what the exercises can't do. I have heard this ad nauseum. Unless I am mistaken, most people feel these exercises are useful. So what I'd like to know is how people use them and how they're able to teach with them.

I would also like to encourage the creative out there with a beef on "the old routines" to start talking about what YOU would do in this venue. Don't like something? We've heard it. MANY times. So now what? Let's hear how you would change it. Can you film what YOU would do? We want to see it. Or... tell how you would combine this and other exercises/routines to create a complete package.

Let's stay positive and constructive.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Bump.

[Bill Glasheen]

Suppose a dojo came up with a nice prearranged set. Suppose it was anonymously submitted to a group of martial experts, and they thought it was a worthwhile tool. Now what?

I often wonder about what "sticks" and what doesn't in the legacy that we call "a martial art." Every MA has a legacy, be it centuries old or contemporary. We all have things that we do to better ourselves so that we can execute in sport, in combat, in self-defense, and in life. So how does any exercise or choreography make it? Is it a convergence of factors from novelty to fad to fulfilling a need? Is it the charisma of a person or a group? Does merit rank up there as a reason for a routine "sticking" in a style of martial art?

Just musing...

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Some of your questions are answered in my introduction, Van. Nobody is censoring anything. However I am most interested in STEERING this discussion towards a positive (e.g. let's create something) direction.

Where do you get the notion that a discussion on ‘exploration’ of principles and concepts contained within any training activity, such as drills or anything else we do for that matter, is negative instead of positive?

In this essay, the fencing master is addressing something we all should concern ourselves with

Prearranged training_ conditions the fencer to expect a certain behavior from his opponent. This expectation is a preeminent factor in the personal evaluation and classification of the imminent combat scenario and in the external development of the fight itself.

Expecting an opponent to behave in one-way or the other is not without danger. Often, being right or wrong determines who's going to live or die at the end of an encounter--before the actual fight has begun.

He is referring to ‘subconscious imprinting’ that can be deadly in actual combat.

As you write “skills do transfer” …

You could put up some of your clips as to what you do in modifying the standard kumites and the reason why our standard kumites need to be modified to begin with _

So at least we all would have something to look at and examine the dynamics for discussion.

I then would invite some of our friends who have trained in Okinawa for years on end to look at these discussions for their opinions _ so that we would have some ‘fresh blood’ in the mix…it gets kind of boring after a while to rehash our own personal views on this over and over, I am sure many of our readers feel the same.

[Van Canna]

Suppose a dojo came up with a nice prearranged set. Suppose it was anonymously submitted to a group of martial experts, and they thought it was a worthwhile tool. Now what?

Most excellent.

And I would be looking for an explanation/discussion as to why they thought it was a worthwhile tool.

What the hell is wrong with that?

And if I disagreed with any of its component parts, and wished to banter about it, what in hell is wrong with that?

[Van Canna]

Unless I am mistaken, most people feel these exercises are useful. So what I'd like to know is how people use them and how they're able to teach with them.

Where do you get the notion that I think these drills are not useful? The discussion has centered on what they are useful for...a damn fair question I think...not a diss on them.

I still teach them and have been practicing them all my Uechi life...with my own 'spin' on them ...for better or for worse...and that's my prerogative ...such as yours...this does not preclude my discussing them.

So answer this: Why would I continue to teach them if I felt they were not useful?

When you write

how they're able to teach with them

I say that is exactly the point.

What defines 'teach' ?

A few definitions

1.To impart knowledge or skill to:

2.To provide knowledge of; instruct in.

3.To condition to a certain action or frame of mind.[this the one that concerns me and should concern all students]


4.To cause to learn by example or experience: an accident that taught me a valuable lesson.

[hoshin]

Kumite…definition
Kumi… a string or thread
Te……..hand or hands, we all knew that.
So a kumite would translate to a group of hand (karate hand) techniques threaded together in a string of movements.
Sounds good to me. What I find interesting is that traditional Japanese koryu kata was made of short actions met by equally short responses. These kata were created on the battle field and then formulated to a practicable kata. Why were they so short? I think it was for “operative conditioning” ( Bill I love that term, couldn’t find it in Grossmans book but I only skimmed for it) and for allowing one response to be used for a multitude of attacks.
So I fail to see why people would be opposed to this frame work of short attacks and responses threaded together in a numbered sequence.
I will admit I never did nor will I ever, take the time to read the original “k bash thread”.
Many of those participants are no longer with us and I try my best to stay out of the “mud slinging” game. Having said that , when I watch many people doing the kumite exercises I have to agree that they look very useless , at least they way they are done and the approach in which they are taught. I have to say with the exception of the last 2 years I have been to every summer camp since “93” and have also had exposure to Okikukai and Shohei ryu versions. So I have witnessed lots of people performing kumite that are not from my own circle and from what I see it is not a unique political or organizational problem.

In Lean manufacturing training there is a short story about a girl who would cut off the ends of the ham before she would put it in the oven. When her husband asked why, she said that’s the way her mom did it. Further questioning found the mother and grandmother also cut the ham ends. Finally going to the great grandmother she said “ oh we cut the ends of the ham off because our oven was too small and that is the only way we could make it fit.

When the Japanese school principal was asked by an American teacher why girls sat on one side and the boys sat on the other and were not allowed to intermingle. The principal replied “oh boys and girls must not sit in the same seats”. This is an example of past convention used as present reasoning.
Why do we do it this way? Because that is the way it has always been done.

If it is your job to preserve a tradition this is good reasoning for the rest of us it is not. I feel George Mattson, Tomoyose Sensei, Kanmei Uechi and a very… very few others hold this responsibility. As for myself I will teach the “robot ryu” as it has been coined as a blue print to be studied and examined but then it needs to be expanded upon and brought into relevance. My understanding of kumite and kata is always changing. It seems everyday I think of something new. I find a new little nuance or application within the movements. A new application will mean a change in performance. I then pursue this idea until it has embedded itself in my understanding. Eventually something else will take its place and without the original “blueprint” I would be lost and wondering around out in space with no cardinal directions to follow. Do I actually practice the kumite or kata they way I was taught? No but I still need it for reference.

steve
~~~~

[hoshin]

My rules for functional kumite.

1. kamai/ postures must appropriate to real life.
(Example, would be holding your hands and punching from a boxer type position)
2. Distance and timing in attacks would be realistic.
(Meaning if the guy don’t defend himself or get out of the way he will get knocked on his butt with a bruise on his chest)
3. You MUST have a practical and tactical reason for doing every segment of the kumite.
(If you don’t have a rational use or explanation for taking two steps backward then you need to change the kumite to fit your personal paradigm of fighting)
4. After the student has the kumite memorized, able to apply principals and has an over all proficiency in the kumite, it needs to be expanded upon by providing a proving ground within the paradigm of fighting but without losing the principals of the kumite.

steve
~~~~

[gmattson]

Exactly the kind of input those of us who do the drills want to read.

Everyone knows drills of any kind are limited. I bet many people perform kata in a drill-like manner. They are fighting "invisible" opponents, but their kata are dealing with these invisible attacks in a prearranged way..

Frankly, I'm a little skeptical about "imprinting". . . if this were true, then any repetitive set of movements such as kata, should be "imprinting" actions from that kata. . . in sequence and if this were the case, then kata would be as marginally useful as the drills.

Rabesa's karate was filled with the k drills yet his imprinted responses to attacks didn't suffer in the least. He used what was useful for the moment and there was no "imprint" as to what his next move was, although it might have been a technique from a kata or k-drill.

[Bill Glasheen]

I don't buy the negative concern about imprinting either, George. I'm sure bad training happens and bad outcomes happen. But there's a cost/benefit ratio with everything we do.

Prearranged training_ conditions the fencer to expect a certain behavior from his opponent.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. And fencing people have their own shtick. But not for once have I expected my street opponent(s) (of doom) to pose and attack as (s)he might in some exercise.

Baseball fanatics I'm sure are familiar with Manny Ramirez. Manny being Manny aside, he's one of the hardest workers in baseball, and one of the best pure hitters there is.

Manny will spend session after session doing nothing but hitting curve balls from a machine that is dialed to throw curve balls. Why? Because he wants to familiarize himself with the unique nature of this pitch. He wants to "see the ball", to use his own words. He wants to learn how to read the translational velocity, the rotational velocity, and the angle of rotation. And in doing so, he wants to program his body to do the mental calculations so that he will know where the ball will be when/if it crosses the plate. Then he wants to experience the feel of a spinning ball hitting the bat, and the spin reversal that subsequently gives that ball "lift" just like a gliding plane.

When a real pitcher is on the mound, Manny isn't going to know what pitch the pitcher will throw. And the combination of individual parameters that make up any curve ball that he MIGHT throw may be unique. But having worked and worked on this one drill, he's a bit better off identifying the pitch when it comes, and knowing where to put the bat to the ball.

That's not imprinting in any negative sense. That's a smart athlete using his tools to accomplish a desired end. Those sessions with the machine alone aren't going to make the complete Manny. We KNOW that. But that in combination with the many other things he does help make the man the exceptional athlete that he is.

Is there a problem with spending lots of time on one tool to pick up a useful skill or two? In his book Kumite, Art talks about spending an entire class on a single sequence in a yakusoku kumite. That's what great teachers do. To Van's credit (since he brought it up...), such a man understands the principles he's trying to instill in his students, and knows how to use the available tools to convey the message.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Good points Steve.

Traditionally I start from here

The name Sanchin translates to Three Conflicts or Three Steps.

The emphasis of Sanchin is the mental principles, but basic physical principles are taught too.

The remaining seven kata's are sometimes called the fighting kata, because they show the self-defense aspects of Uechi-Ryu more clearly than Sanchin.

All these advanced movements are derived from the seemingly simple moves of Sanchin.

The learning of these fighting kata means much more.

**

Bunkai_

The purpose of bunkai is to teach the student the application of kata (Bunkai means application). There are three different kata that have formalized bunkai's, Kanshiwa, Seisan, and Sanseiru.

Sparring...

Uechi Kanei added material taught in this art. He devised a set of preliminary and supplementary exercises to warm up the student and to teach him basic karate skills.

He also created five bridging katas, which serves as stepping stones between the three main kata taken from Pangai-noon.

He also devised several pre-arranged sparring drills designed to teach the skills needed for free style sparring.

Clearly, had he meant to also say that the drills were also designed for street attacks, it seems to me he would have mentioned it as well.

Uechi Kanei kept teaching in Futenma until he passed away on February 2, 1991.

Do the skills of kumite and free style transfer to real street attacks?

Of course they help, but not always simply because street attacks are not 'dueling' events for the most part...thus the reason to be careful about how we teach students to 'rely' on concepts of 'engagements' ....the imprinting is insidious...

I used the drills extensively in my day to develop an ability to free fight...and they served me well.

When fighting in the All American tournament in NY... here




I observed the superb TKD fighters of Henry Cho...practice their own drills for the matches....

Short bursts of extremely aggressive free attack defense exchanges that invaded the space and reflex action of the uke that were responded with 'short stopping' kicks to center or 'spins' that looked like you were under attack by jet planes.

Pretty awesome.

Now is there a tool in Uechi that can prepare our fighters to deal with those fighting tournament skills and to prepare us for 'ring fighting'...dueling ?

Our drills do a pretty good job of it....although some people will not 'take to them' for personal reasons and prefer to develop excellent fighting skills in different ways.

And if and when they do, they have the right to discuss it.

I think where communications break down occur when accusations or inferences of substandard prowess creep into discussions regarding practitioners 'who cannot do the kumites well' according to a 'standard' or prefer not to follow that path to eventually 'get to Rome' ....

But the again 'prowess' in what? Free fighting or self defense in some crowded bar, when you are shoulder to shoulder with a crowd, and some nut decides to just show you his beer bottle before he smashes it over your head.

As you indicate, 'the drill' arguments are not only a 'house phenomenon' [An occurrence, a circumstance, or a fact that is perceptible by the senses.] they seem to extend worldwide.

[hoshin]

Bill;
I do like your analogy of Manny using the mechanical pitcher. In that use, the drill equals the application. However the currant way many people do kumite, the drill does not equal the application. In a real confrontation the speed, angles, intensity, suddenness and violent intention of the attacker is so very different from the drill that they do not equate. A student could train their entire life in the “accepted” version of the kumite and when a real life attack happens IT WILL NOT BE RECONIZED as the same. The brain will be looking for similar information and will not find it.

In Japanese koryu kata the student learns the kata but then after it they are competent the next step would be to use the fighting paradigm framework and try to short circuit the kumite. As example if the kumite requires the attacker to strike with the right and he feels the uke is anticipating the right side attack and leading that way he will shift to a left attack and only if the uke can defend that first will he then continue with the prescribed right attack to continue the flow of kumite.

To make the kumite functional you have to “test” it out with a wider scope of vision. Removing the bias concepts and pushing out of ones comfort zone.
(BIAS…the brain makes informational shortcuts in the form of filters to process information more quickly)

I feel it is a big mistake to teach the kumite with a cadence count. Same with kata. The student without realizing it memorizes the rhythm and feel of the cadence. I am sure there are many out there that could do the kumite blindfolded with good success because of the cadence flow the two students have acquired.

I understand broad scope training, give the information and let people sift through it for what they want to get out of their time in the martial arts. Not everyone comes in to learn to fight. This is ok by me but the tools need to be there and need to be effective.
The kumite drills really need to go beyond the currant lull way many are practicing them.
The fact that there are those out there who don’t use or like them is an indication that something is wrong. Maybe it is lack of understanding; this would indicate they had poor training from their teacher and them from theirs. Maybe they see a more direct method to accomplish certain goals which would indicate a systemic problem not with the drill but with its application and training.
Either way if people don’t like it and fail to see results from the drill then it needs to be fixed or adjusted. Ignoring the problem would be like cutting off the ends of the ham.

steve
~~~~~

[hoshin]

I think one aspect that is missing in this conversation is that of style. I have talked about this many times and it always seems to be pushed aside.
My thinking is that a style of martial art is no different then a style of music. Just by listening you can tell jazz from pop rock from country. Now that MMA is around the different styles are disappearing but in the past you could always tell what style someone was doing just by watching. IF you were familiar enough to recognize it.

I move and talk and have many mannerisms just like my dad and grandfather. This is the family style. Kanbun had them and all the students after him will have them. This is how you would recognize the style. I can tell Uechi from Goju just from the position of the hands and knees if they were both standing in sanchin doing nothing.

I feel that the kumite drills help learn this feel of the style and makes it more easily transposed to either sparring or self defense fighting. Once you have the feel, you got it. Even if you do something outside the box, something taken from another system, it will still have the Uechi look and feel.


steve
~~~~~

[Van Canna]

Good comments George, it gives us a chance to explore further:

George

Everyone knows drills of any kind are limited. I bet many people perform kata in a drill-like manner. They are fighting "invisible" opponents, but their kata are dealing with these invisible attacks in a prearranged way...

A good point…but different ways to look at it…

I look at kata as street attacks defensive concepts [mental conditioning] in continuous motion that was designed specifically for street defense and not for sparring as Master Uechi wrote.

The ‘prearranged way’ of the kata is not really a ‘prearrangement’ to me, because I see every inch of every motion and _ in between pauses if any, as a myriad of applications I can use at will based on my perception of an attack about to come my way, without the restriction of the drills ‘proper execution’…that someone would start to complain about if I were to respond to them as I saw fit at that moment in time.

Something that I see as designed with rules in mind…rules that Master Uechi knew tournament fighting was all about.

One seemingly ‘prearranged’ move out of the kata, is to me like a Glock pistol with a twenty rounds magazine I can fire at will from inside my coat pocket…, without someone shouting ‘you didn’t attack me right _ or defend …right’ _


The kata imprints the ‘right’ programming in my view.

It is not a drill…it is a kata…to wit

kata are sometimes called the fighting kata, because they show the self-defense aspects of Uechi-Ryu. The learning of these fighting kata means much more.

The learning of these fighting kata means much more than just memorizing the movements and doing them in the same sequence that you were taught, the student must be able to actually use each technique effectively.

This learning process cannot be rushed! The student must take the time to study each movement and see how it can be applied not only by itself, but in conjunction with the preceding movement and the following movement.

This is quite important simply for the reason that there may not be just one application for each movement. While doing kata, one must try and visualize each technique in an actual circumstance

This is the right imprinting in my view. Bill posted

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. And fencing people have their own shtick. But not for once have I expected my street opponent(s) (of doom) to pose and attack as (s)he might in some exercise.

Bill, let’s not start dancing in circles again. The ‘expectation’ is not of the conscious mind…I thought you knew that.

George

Rabesa's karate was filled with the k drills yet his imprinted responses to attacks didn't suffer in the least. He used what was useful for the moment and there was no "imprint" as to what his next move was, although it might have been a technique from a kata or k-drill.

Damn right … and that’s because he was aware of the differences in concepts and he practiced them physically and mentally, along with the standard imprints of the drills, as I did.

We must do the drills but understand, accept, and work around the imprints that imprint naturally when we do them with the conviction that we need not be careful of what we imprint subconsciously.

I also did the drills religiously when fighting…Rabesa and I taught alike, thought alike, and fought alike from the ring to the ‘street’…we were side by side and used the same ‘principles’ when ‘slam dunking’ those two punks at our camp some years back.

As a matter of fact the one who was preparing to attack me, after invading Bethoney's room to threaten the seniors ...first got into a defensive kumite stance as per his kumite imprinting...

I showed you at te 'foxhole' a few years ago what happened to him as he was still in the process of 'getting ready'

Again, the question that gets ducked over and over is why did Rabesa write this in his book

Although your pre-arranged drills are great for certain things… I prefer something different to develop timing and readiness. I call it “You move…I move” _It not only encompass your ‘reading’ but timing as well.

Now, I ask, what would possess this great fighter to make such a statement so incongruent with his life ‘full of K drills’ ?

This says it all by Steve…yet it will bounce around in the ‘obduracy’ obstinacy’ and ‘denial’ ping pong balls click-clacking around this conversation.

In a real confrontation the speed, angles, intensity, suddenness and violent intention of the attacker is so very different from the drill that they do not equate.

A student could train their entire life in the “accepted” version of the kumite and when a real life attack happens IT WILL NOT BE RECONIZED as the same. The brain will be looking for similar information and will not find it.

In Japanese koryu kata the student learns the kata but then after it they are competent the next step would be to use the fighting paradigm framework and try to short circuit the kumite.

As example if the kumite requires the attacker to strike with the right and he feels the uke is anticipating the right side attack and leading that way he will shift to a left attack and only if the uke can defend that first will he then continue with the prescribed right attack to continue the flow of kumite.

[Greg]

As previously promised, my article on the topic:
http://uechi-ryu.com/newsletters/postal.htm

Thanks to Mattson Sensei for hosting it on his site (I was trying to figure out a way to keep the formatting from getting all jumbled and the footnotes lost...)