How many people out there are doing two karate styles at the same time?
If so, is it working for you?
Can you be faithful to both and still make progress?
Do your teachers have any problems with that and is there a protocol when doing two or more styles or having two or more teachers?
How much time works to progress in both, two night each? I know it depends on the individual of course and how much time is spent on your own.
Just interested in some feedback.
Thanks,
Vicki
Balancing two styles
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Balancing two styles
"Cry in the dojo, laugh in the battlefield"
When I was starting in Uechi I was also resurrecting my Shorin Ryu training. I'd wanted to continue in Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu, but I couldn't find a good dojo near enough to make sense, and with Fedele practically next door it seemed like an opportunity I shouldn't pass up. So I did Matsubayashi on my own and Uechi with Fedele. That worked for a little while, but I found it increasingly difficult and increasingly pointless. I kept whittling down my Matsubayashi practice, replacing it with Uechi, until all that's left of Matsubayashi now is a repetition of Naihanchi Shodan that I perform along with my Uechi kata. Every now and again I'll do Passai or Naihanchi Nidan, but the other kata seem to fight too much with the muscle memory from Sanchin. I don't like the way it feels. Naihanchi is the great exception, as I find it entirely compatible with Uechi.
That's probably not what you wanted to hear, but of course I didn't have two instructors. I have been on my own in Matsubayashi (except that I am plugged in to a network of instructors that will answer any questions I might have).
That's probably not what you wanted to hear, but of course I didn't have two instructors. I have been on my own in Matsubayashi (except that I am plugged in to a network of instructors that will answer any questions I might have).
Mike
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jorvik
I have always cross trained 
but I tend to cross train in different arts and not similar arts. When I did Aikido I also did karate, when I did Tai-Chi I did Escrima.
One thing that I do notice is that very often you will find exactly the same technique in different styles, the good thing about this is that in one style it will be explained very simply and be no big deal, yet in another it will be treated as some mystical secret
...I suppose the difficulty of doing this is that you get in a situation where you see one art as being inferior to another.or if you are searching for real knowledge you will not stop changing schools.......some folks don't like doing that, they want their blackbelt
Recently from doing Wing-Chun I've seen stuff that I can directly relate to Sanchin, which to me is exciting
.but may lead nowhere 
.the fun is in the journey not the destination.
If you are very lucky you can find an instructor who has such a depth of knowledge that you are happy to just follow them.............but, it's never really that simple. They may know their own art but have no idea of tactical thinking or firearms or risk assesment. Having said that I always like to train with somebody who cross trains rather than somebody who sticks to one style
At the end of the day it's your choice."horses for courses" as we say.......whatever suits you best
but I tend to cross train in different arts and not similar arts. When I did Aikido I also did karate, when I did Tai-Chi I did Escrima.One thing that I do notice is that very often you will find exactly the same technique in different styles, the good thing about this is that in one style it will be explained very simply and be no big deal, yet in another it will be treated as some mystical secret
...I suppose the difficulty of doing this is that you get in a situation where you see one art as being inferior to another.or if you are searching for real knowledge you will not stop changing schools.......some folks don't like doing that, they want their blackbelt Recently from doing Wing-Chun I've seen stuff that I can directly relate to Sanchin, which to me is exciting
.but may lead nowhere .the fun is in the journey not the destination.If you are very lucky you can find an instructor who has such a depth of knowledge that you are happy to just follow them.............but, it's never really that simple. They may know their own art but have no idea of tactical thinking or firearms or risk assesment. Having said that I always like to train with somebody who cross trains rather than somebody who sticks to one style
At the end of the day it's your choice."horses for courses" as we say.......whatever suits you best
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Chris McKaskell
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I am involved in three different styles.
And I try other stuff whenever the opportunity pops up.
Sometimes I'll even follow a thread for awhile (you know, like BJJ or perhaps knife work).
In the end I believe I am and always have been a Uechi guy.
What's interesting is how many different ways there are to practice just Uechi -- especially with these other styles to help inform the practice.
The toughest thing is remembering to perform things the way your instructor want to see them. If you can keep that straight then you're really getting somewhere! Intention and attention are crucial.
David Mott is really good at this -- watching him perform a slow taichi-like uechi kata is just mesmerizing. Or a pagua-esque kata with all it's explosiveness. Fun.
Just remember - (and I know MA is NOT about choreography, but...) from a choregraphy perspective -- dancers change styles all the time! And presumably there is depth in their knowledge as well.
And I try other stuff whenever the opportunity pops up.
Sometimes I'll even follow a thread for awhile (you know, like BJJ or perhaps knife work).
In the end I believe I am and always have been a Uechi guy.
What's interesting is how many different ways there are to practice just Uechi -- especially with these other styles to help inform the practice.
The toughest thing is remembering to perform things the way your instructor want to see them. If you can keep that straight then you're really getting somewhere! Intention and attention are crucial.
David Mott is really good at this -- watching him perform a slow taichi-like uechi kata is just mesmerizing. Or a pagua-esque kata with all it's explosiveness. Fun.
Just remember - (and I know MA is NOT about choreography, but...) from a choregraphy perspective -- dancers change styles all the time! And presumably there is depth in their knowledge as well.
Chris
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jorvik
Quote
"The toughest thing is remembering to perform things the way your instructor want to see them. If you can keep that straight then you're really getting somewhere! Intention and attention are crucial. "
With my instructor, it's more how the movements feel, and learning how they feel is very difficult.......as an example his arms can be in the sanchin position and look very tense and stiff, when in fact they are extremly soft and relaxed.but when you push on them they feel very strong, like he is tenseing but he isn't he is still very relaxed.
Now I can copy his outer form, but without the inner meaning, the relaxation and softness, it may look very similar but it isn't.
"The toughest thing is remembering to perform things the way your instructor want to see them. If you can keep that straight then you're really getting somewhere! Intention and attention are crucial. "
With my instructor, it's more how the movements feel, and learning how they feel is very difficult.......as an example his arms can be in the sanchin position and look very tense and stiff, when in fact they are extremly soft and relaxed.but when you push on them they feel very strong, like he is tenseing but he isn't he is still very relaxed.
Now I can copy his outer form, but without the inner meaning, the relaxation and softness, it may look very similar but it isn't.
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Chris McKaskell
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- Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 4:43 pm
- Location: London, Ontario
- Contact:
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jorvik
Martial arts are a very difficult subject to discuss on a forum ..........In the past I have offended people who I didn't mean to offend ....and there has been some bad blood on these fora in times gone by also ..........so with regards what I have said.this is my own personal experience, drawn from me.......I don't know if I'm right or not or if the picture I paint is valid..each to his lot and none is light ( to quote Hesse , steppenwolf)..............so yeah " Bang On" I know what you meant and where you are coming from
What styles do you study BTW
..........In the past I have offended people who I didn't mean to offend ....and there has been some bad blood on these fora in times gone by also ..........so with regards what I have said.this is my own personal experience, drawn from me.......I don't know if I'm right or not or if the picture I paint is valid..each to his lot and none is light ( to quote Hesse , steppenwolf)..............so yeah " Bang On" I know what you meant and where you are coming from What styles do you study BTW
Re: Balancing two styles
I think it can be done but it depends more on the people involved than the physical aspect. I've only had one teacher that wasn't keen on the idea of mixing, and in his case I think he was right. Other than that most instructors I've had never had a problem with it.chef wrote:How many people out there are doing two karate styles at the same time?
If so, is it working for you?
Can you be faithful to both and still make progress?
Do your teachers have any problems with that and is there a protocol when doing two or more styles or having two or more teachers?
How much time works to progress in both, two night each? I know it depends on the individual of course and how much time is spent on your own.
Just interested in some feedback.
Thanks,
Vicki
I think it also depends on why you're taking multiple styles and what your goals are for doing so. In my case I was exploring karate techniques and doing multiple styles helped with that. I tried to balance my training between instructors and though it worked for awhile my interest eventually shifted more to one than the other.
I was dreaming of the past...
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Bill Glasheen
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- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
It's worth mentioning that Vicki is cross-training with an extremely talented martial artist who teaches at a small college in Ashland where he is an art professor.
And... I first met this fellow circa 1974 when I was a student at UVa. Although we now teach different styles (Shotokan vs. Uechi), I actually started out in a hard Japanese style so it's all no big deal to me. There's still a little of that in me, and I freely draw from it and add it in to my teaching where it makes sense. The guy was damn good then, and he's damn good now. And I stolen stuff from him. So... Vicki really didn't have to make that big a leap, even though without my "connection" the styles may at times appear to be very different.
A century or two ago - in China and in Okinawa - it was no big deal to study different styles from different teachers. Kanbun did it, although he didn't stick with the two early styles he studied (first in Okinawa, then in China). I believe Shushiwa studied from several instructors.
The one time I did simultaneous studying of 3 different styles was when I was already a Sandan in Uechi Ryu. That's when - by invitation - I started studying Goju and aikido from a talented instructor who was once in special forces. The most difficult thing about it was the odd nuances that distinguished almost identical techniques in Uechi and Goju.
One example that comes to mind is the double strikes after circles in Sanchin. In Uechi it's a boshiken and in Goju it's palm heel. In Uechi the bottom hand fingers point to side, and in Goju they point to the bottom. Screw that up and you upset your instructor, even though there really isn't any religion about it. But then... the fact that you see two very different views of the same concept in a way reinforces some of the underlying principles. When you can see the commonality and then easily shift to the individual nuances, then you've mastered information far beyond the regurgitation phase.
It's worth mentioning that I've gotten some of my best Uechi kata applications from seeing aps in Goju, Wing Chun, aikido, and jiujitsu. You know... the kind of applications that nobody on Okinawa will show you. But then one day the "Aha!" hits, and you wonder why you never saw it before. This is a very good reason to cross train.
It's also worth mentioning that I've let both Japanese karate and kobudo movement start to influence how I generate energy in Sanseiryu stance sequences. One day I'll write more about it.
Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.
- Bill
And... I first met this fellow circa 1974 when I was a student at UVa. Although we now teach different styles (Shotokan vs. Uechi), I actually started out in a hard Japanese style so it's all no big deal to me. There's still a little of that in me, and I freely draw from it and add it in to my teaching where it makes sense. The guy was damn good then, and he's damn good now. And I stolen stuff from him. So... Vicki really didn't have to make that big a leap, even though without my "connection" the styles may at times appear to be very different.
A century or two ago - in China and in Okinawa - it was no big deal to study different styles from different teachers. Kanbun did it, although he didn't stick with the two early styles he studied (first in Okinawa, then in China). I believe Shushiwa studied from several instructors.
The one time I did simultaneous studying of 3 different styles was when I was already a Sandan in Uechi Ryu. That's when - by invitation - I started studying Goju and aikido from a talented instructor who was once in special forces. The most difficult thing about it was the odd nuances that distinguished almost identical techniques in Uechi and Goju.
One example that comes to mind is the double strikes after circles in Sanchin. In Uechi it's a boshiken and in Goju it's palm heel. In Uechi the bottom hand fingers point to side, and in Goju they point to the bottom. Screw that up and you upset your instructor, even though there really isn't any religion about it. But then... the fact that you see two very different views of the same concept in a way reinforces some of the underlying principles. When you can see the commonality and then easily shift to the individual nuances, then you've mastered information far beyond the regurgitation phase.
It's worth mentioning that I've gotten some of my best Uechi kata applications from seeing aps in Goju, Wing Chun, aikido, and jiujitsu. You know... the kind of applications that nobody on Okinawa will show you. But then one day the "Aha!" hits, and you wonder why you never saw it before. This is a very good reason to cross train.
It's also worth mentioning that I've let both Japanese karate and kobudo movement start to influence how I generate energy in Sanseiryu stance sequences. One day I'll write more about it.
Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.
- Bill
I am not sure, Jorvik, if your question was for me. If so, I am actually studying with three different teachers:What styles do you study BTW?
- Two nights a week with one Shotokan teacher. I love the class but the class is so short, about an hour at best.
- One night a week with another Shotokan teacher (the one Bill knew years ago). His class is two hours long and kicks my butt. I love being pushed like that. My first instructor in Uechi was hard core like that.
- I was studying three times a week before my test in Uechi with Bill. Both of our schedules have changed, so I am not sure what is going to work out as far as my Uechi. One night, for sure, at this point.
I am hoping to start training in Uechi at least one other time during the week, maybe two with one of the Uechi brown belts. It would be great for both of us.
It's hard to work all of this in and still hit the gym. I am doing an hour with elliptical and stretching 3X a week and need to figure out how to fit in my weight lifing somehow.
There is a protocal when changing instructors within one style (from what I have heard). If you are Dan ranked, it is permissable to start with another instructor. In others styles, if you change from one teacher/school to another and are not Dan ranked, it is considered an insult to your first instructor unless the new teacher is higher in Dan rank...at least that is my understanding.
Just some food for thought,
Vicki
"Cry in the dojo, laugh in the battlefield"
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Chris McKaskell
- Posts: 586
- Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 4:43 pm
- Location: London, Ontario
- Contact:
Yup - this pretty much illustrates where I'm coming from (or, at least, where I'm trying to get toBill Glasheen wrote:...The most difficult thing about it was the odd nuances that distinguished almost identical techniques in Uechi and Goju.
One example that comes to mind is the double strikes after circles in Sanchin. In Uechi it's a boshiken and in Goju it's palm heel. In Uechi the bottom hand fingers point to side, and in Goju they point to the bottom. Screw that up and you upset your instructor, even though there really isn't any religion about it. But then... the fact that you see two very different views of the same concept in a way reinforces some of the underlying principles. When you can see the commonality and then easily shift to the individual nuances, then you've mastered information far beyond the regurgitation phase.
It's worth mentioning that I've gotten some of my best Uechi kata applications from seeing aps in Goju, Wing Chun, aikido, and jiujitsu. You know... the kind of applications that nobody on Okinawa will show you. But then one day the "Aha!" hits, and you wonder why you never saw it before. This is a very good reason to cross train.
).The three styles I'm actively studying are Uechi, Shorin-ryu and Taiwonese Golden Eagle.
The interplay and similarities between Uechi and Golden Eagle (GEKF) are the most difficult to transpose because they are so terribly similar in so many ways.
But different and ever enriching applications show up in the most surprizing places using what obstensibly are the same techniques.
Hey York -- no worries, bro.
Chris
An opportunity to train with greatness is compelling. I once studied infinite Abelian group theory simply because I had access to one of the top guys in the subject. But in the end I didn't make a career of it--that was not the direction I wanted to commit to.
The difficulty I have mixing Uechi and Matsubayashi is that the stances and philosophies are so different. Matsubayashi is a light-on-your-feet style, with form and relatively low stances generally considered very important. Stances are often bladed. The Sanchin stance is non-existent, and stepping is, in one sense, opposite, i.e. in Matsubayshi your rear foot in natural stance is at an angle and your front foot faces forward. When you step, you simply bring your back foot to the front and then pivot the rear to an angle. I'm sure all of you are much more talented than I am and can step any way you wish with little or no conscious though, but me, I ended up inserting Sanchin into my Matsubayashi, creating a new style that was none of the above. Shoshin Nagamine himself counseled against trying to mix what he classified as Naha-Te and Shuri-Te, and having done it, I am of like mind. If I had the time, I'd be supplementing Uechi with jujitsu. That seems to work out rather well.
The difficulty I have mixing Uechi and Matsubayashi is that the stances and philosophies are so different. Matsubayashi is a light-on-your-feet style, with form and relatively low stances generally considered very important. Stances are often bladed. The Sanchin stance is non-existent, and stepping is, in one sense, opposite, i.e. in Matsubayshi your rear foot in natural stance is at an angle and your front foot faces forward. When you step, you simply bring your back foot to the front and then pivot the rear to an angle. I'm sure all of you are much more talented than I am and can step any way you wish with little or no conscious though, but me, I ended up inserting Sanchin into my Matsubayashi, creating a new style that was none of the above. Shoshin Nagamine himself counseled against trying to mix what he classified as Naha-Te and Shuri-Te, and having done it, I am of like mind. If I had the time, I'd be supplementing Uechi with jujitsu. That seems to work out rather well.
Mike
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jorvik
Quote
"An opportunity to train with greatness is compelling"
That certainly applies to MA's. Although I do believe in cross training I am currently just focused on one style because the instruction is so good, the classes are short, there are no exercises to speak of, but I am slowly learning a different way to use strength and energy .and although it is expensive I don't begrudge the money because my instructor will regularly go to Hong Kong or China to train ( two trips this year alone)...........I am a lttle bit concerned that I would miss some of the more subtle movements if I concentrated on anything else right now
"An opportunity to train with greatness is compelling"
That certainly applies to MA's. Although I do believe in cross training I am currently just focused on one style because the instruction is so good, the classes are short, there are no exercises to speak of, but I am slowly learning a different way to use strength and energy
.and although it is expensive I don't begrudge the money because my instructor will regularly go to Hong Kong or China to train ( two trips this year alone)...........I am a lttle bit concerned that I would miss some of the more subtle movements if I concentrated on anything else right now i think a good question is what do you want to get out of doing this. then ask what are the unintentional side effects?
i think it is more important to know where you want to be in a year, 5 years 10 years.
if someone is training for a particular reason in a particular system, it is well worth it.
i enjoyed doing ground work because i had no clue what to do down there. so it filled a gap.
but if your goal is to do uechi but there is a shotokan school close by you have to ask your self where will this take you in the end. you might be wasting your time and gaining bad habits. or you may find you like shotokan better and give up on uechi, who knows.
i think its best to have a plan on where you want to go and aim for that.
i think it is more important to know where you want to be in a year, 5 years 10 years.
if someone is training for a particular reason in a particular system, it is well worth it.
i enjoyed doing ground work because i had no clue what to do down there. so it filled a gap.
but if your goal is to do uechi but there is a shotokan school close by you have to ask your self where will this take you in the end. you might be wasting your time and gaining bad habits. or you may find you like shotokan better and give up on uechi, who knows.
i think its best to have a plan on where you want to go and aim for that.
