To be honest, i myself know very little of this, only the talk of friends and a bit on a political talk show about Elections in Europe.
But, some posters here are europian right?
What do you say of this?
Europe:rise of neo-socialist fascism or nothing?
Moderator: Available
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jorvik
Well you used the correct phrase for that 
...........In my country they wrongly speak of the "Far Right Fascists"...Yet you only need to check your history books to know that every Fascist in recent years has been a Socialist 
Hitler,Mussolini, Stalin, Mao........Now in my country some people are worried about the BNP the British National Party, and how well they did in the European Elections. In actual fact they only got 2 seats UKIP got a lot more.
There are reasons for these results firstly in England we have had the expences scandal were MPS have been basically defrauding the country. We also have a huge problem with immigration were our Government has lied for years saying that there wasn't a problem when there clearly was........now both these things have contributed to a protest vote. A lot of people are sick of the EEC and want out, and an end to immigration ( incidently the immigrants are mainly white.Poles, lithuanians etc )....so they voted for the two parties that offered this....UKIP the United Kingdom Independence Party was solely created to get us out of the EEC.....they are not far right/left whatever.......the BNP also want out of the EEC and also want an end to immigration.but they have other policies and are in fact closer to the English labour party than anything else, in fact most of the votes they got were from labour homelands
...........In my country they wrongly speak of the "Far Right Fascists"...Yet you only need to check your history books to know that every Fascist in recent years has been a Socialist Hitler,Mussolini, Stalin, Mao........Now in my country some people are worried about the BNP the British National Party, and how well they did in the European Elections. In actual fact they only got 2 seats UKIP got a lot more. There are reasons for these results firstly in England we have had the expences scandal were MPS have been basically defrauding the country. We also have a huge problem with immigration were our Government has lied for years saying that there wasn't a problem when there clearly was........now both these things have contributed to a protest vote. A lot of people are sick of the EEC and want out, and an end to immigration ( incidently the immigrants are mainly white.Poles, lithuanians etc )....so they voted for the two parties that offered this....UKIP the United Kingdom Independence Party was solely created to get us out of the EEC.....they are not far right/left whatever.......the BNP also want out of the EEC and also want an end to immigration.but they have other policies and are in fact closer to the English labour party than anything else, in fact most of the votes they got were from labour homelands
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Bill Glasheen
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Good points about NAZI/fascist = socialist, Ray. Lots of people - particularly liberals in this country - throw the word NAZI around as a label to tag onto those they disagree with. Little do they know that they undermine their arguments with their ignorance.
Along those lines... Up until recently the trend in Europe has been the opposite of a recent trend in the U.S. That is, governments have been swinging more towards fiscal conservatism.
However... If the world recession gets severe to the point of catastrophic, things could change. This in fact was one of the reasons for the rise of the NAZI party in Germany. After World War I, the German economic system completely collapsed. People were desperate, and nature abhors a vacuum. As they say, the rest is history.
Stay tuned.
- Bill
Along those lines... Up until recently the trend in Europe has been the opposite of a recent trend in the U.S. That is, governments have been swinging more towards fiscal conservatism.
However... If the world recession gets severe to the point of catastrophic, things could change. This in fact was one of the reasons for the rise of the NAZI party in Germany. After World War I, the German economic system completely collapsed. People were desperate, and nature abhors a vacuum. As they say, the rest is history.
Stay tuned.
- Bill
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f.Channell
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The problems in Germany Bill go back to 800 AD or so, when a kingdom (Charlemagnes) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothair_I
was divided among three brothers. Been messed up ever since, lets hope it's over, and history doesn't repeat once again.
f.
was divided among three brothers. Been messed up ever since, lets hope it's over, and history doesn't repeat once again.
f.
Sans Peur Ne Obliviscaris
www.hinghamkarate.com
www.hinghamkarate.com
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Bill Glasheen
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Fred
I've had 3 visits to Germany in the last decade. Two were for karate (Bruce's dojo is in Regensburg, Bavaria), and one for business (Bonn). I've been to Munich in the travels as well.
I never really got the feeling that Germany was all that "screwed up" right now, or at least not any more than any other country. Yes, there always is that underground element which worships the NAZI past, but they are a minority and both government and people are paranoid to the point of overly restrictive on their free speech and activities.
Germany is more heterogeneous than most people realize. You see the genetic differences going from the north to the south. Bavarians think differently than the rest of Germany (kind of like Texas). The merging of West vs. East has kept the country very, very busy since the fall of the Berlin wall. But the former Communist divide has created some interesting social strata that will remain for some time.
Germans do share some tendencies that make them very different from Americans. For instance if you jaywalk in Germany, the average citizen will yell at you. If the light is red and there are no cars to be found for miles, pedestrians will wait until it turns green their way before crossing. In Germany, people do as they are told. They are disciplined and orderly.
They have allowed immigration of non-Germanic people for some time. This has made the country both better and worse as they attempt to assimilate the cultures and everything that comes with that. But all in all, I think that's a good thing.
The thing is, I expect Germany to be the last place (right now) where neo-socialist fascism would rise. They're now a dominant economy in the EU. These kind of fringe political groups tend to rise more where there is pervasive economic hardship.
- Bill
I've had 3 visits to Germany in the last decade. Two were for karate (Bruce's dojo is in Regensburg, Bavaria), and one for business (Bonn). I've been to Munich in the travels as well.
I never really got the feeling that Germany was all that "screwed up" right now, or at least not any more than any other country. Yes, there always is that underground element which worships the NAZI past, but they are a minority and both government and people are paranoid to the point of overly restrictive on their free speech and activities.
Germany is more heterogeneous than most people realize. You see the genetic differences going from the north to the south. Bavarians think differently than the rest of Germany (kind of like Texas). The merging of West vs. East has kept the country very, very busy since the fall of the Berlin wall. But the former Communist divide has created some interesting social strata that will remain for some time.
Germans do share some tendencies that make them very different from Americans. For instance if you jaywalk in Germany, the average citizen will yell at you. If the light is red and there are no cars to be found for miles, pedestrians will wait until it turns green their way before crossing. In Germany, people do as they are told. They are disciplined and orderly.
They have allowed immigration of non-Germanic people for some time. This has made the country both better and worse as they attempt to assimilate the cultures and everything that comes with that. But all in all, I think that's a good thing.
The thing is, I expect Germany to be the last place (right now) where neo-socialist fascism would rise. They're now a dominant economy in the EU. These kind of fringe political groups tend to rise more where there is pervasive economic hardship.
- Bill
Anyone what the 'danger' countries for neo-socialist fascism is right now?Bill Glasheen wrote:Fred
I've had 3 visits to Germany in the last decade. Two were for karate (Bruce's dojo is in Regensburg, Bavaria), and one for business (Bonn). I've been to Munich in the travels as well.
I never really got the feeling that Germany was all that "screwed up" right now, or at least not any more than any other country. Yes, there always is that underground element which worships the NAZI past, but they are a minority and both government and people are paranoid to the point of overly restrictive on their free speech and activities.
Germany is more heterogeneous than most people realize. You see the genetic differences going from the north to the south. Bavarians think differently than the rest of Germany (kind of like Texas). The merging of West vs. East has kept the country very, very busy since the fall of the Berlin wall. But the former Communist divide has created some interesting social strata that will remain for some time.
Germans do share some tendencies that make them very different from Americans. For instance if you jaywalk in Germany, the average citizen will yell at you. If the light is red and there are no cars to be found for miles, pedestrians will wait until it turns green their way before crossing. In Germany, people do as they are told. They are disciplined and orderly.
They have allowed immigration of non-Germanic people for some time. This has made the country both better and worse as they attempt to assimilate the cultures and everything that comes with that. But all in all, I think that's a good thing.
The thing is, I expect Germany to be the last place (right now) where neo-socialist fascism would rise. They're now a dominant economy in the EU. These kind of fringe political groups tend to rise more where there is pervasive economic hardship.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Not true, Ray.AAAhmed46 wrote:
I do consider ww2 nazi's to be more right wing.
But today? Atleast in terms of economics their pretty leftwing.
Socialism is the antithesis of right wing.Nazism, officially National Socialism[1][2][3][4] (German: Nationalsozialismus), refers to the ideology and practices of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party under Adolf Hitler, and the policies adopted by the dictatorial government of Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1945.[5][6][7][8]
Socialism occupied the power vacuum after the economy and monetary system suffered a complete collapse. As is true with many socialist and communist government, the strong central government often leads to dictatorships. (Hugo Chavez is the most recent example.)
- Bill
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JimHawkins
- Posts: 2101
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:21 am
- Location: NYC
Hi Bill
They can call their party whatever they want...They were Fascists.....
Most see leaning to the right as moving toward the latter.....and vice versa
However:
Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, comprises a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology[1][2][3][4] and a corporatist economic ideology.[5] Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state.[6] Fascists believe that nations and/or races are in perpetual conflict whereby only the strong can survive by being healthy, vital, and by asserting themselves in combat against the weak.[7] Fascist governments forbid and suppress criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.[8] Fascism opposes class conflict, blames capitalist liberal democracies for its creation and communists for exploiting the concept.[9] Fascism is much defined by what it opposes, what scholars call the fascist negations - its opposition to individualism[10], rationalism, liberalism, conservatism, capitalism, and communism. [11][12] In the economic sphere, many fascist leaders have claimed to support a "Third Way" in economic policy, which they believed superior to both the rampant individualism of unrestrained capitalism and the severe control of state communism.[13][14] This was to be achieved by a form of government control over business and labour (called "the corporate state" by Mussolini).[15][16] No common and concise definition exists for fascism and historians and political scientists disagree on what should be in any concise definition.[17]
Following the defeat of the Axis powers in World War II and the publicity surrounding the atrocities committed during the period of fascist governments, the term fascist has been used as a pejorative word.[18]
Most see leaning to the right as moving toward the latter.....and vice versa
However:
===============================Most scholars do not find the terms right and left very useful with regard to fascism, which incorporated elements of both left and right, rejected the main currents of leftist and rightist politics, and attracted adherents from both ends of the political spectrum.[28][29][30] Hence, fascism can be called sui generis. Some scholars do place fascism squarely on the right or left.
Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, comprises a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology[1][2][3][4] and a corporatist economic ideology.[5] Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state.[6] Fascists believe that nations and/or races are in perpetual conflict whereby only the strong can survive by being healthy, vital, and by asserting themselves in combat against the weak.[7] Fascist governments forbid and suppress criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.[8] Fascism opposes class conflict, blames capitalist liberal democracies for its creation and communists for exploiting the concept.[9] Fascism is much defined by what it opposes, what scholars call the fascist negations - its opposition to individualism[10], rationalism, liberalism, conservatism, capitalism, and communism. [11][12] In the economic sphere, many fascist leaders have claimed to support a "Third Way" in economic policy, which they believed superior to both the rampant individualism of unrestrained capitalism and the severe control of state communism.[13][14] This was to be achieved by a form of government control over business and labour (called "the corporate state" by Mussolini).[15][16] No common and concise definition exists for fascism and historians and political scientists disagree on what should be in any concise definition.[17]
Following the defeat of the Axis powers in World War II and the publicity surrounding the atrocities committed during the period of fascist governments, the term fascist has been used as a pejorative word.[18]
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
"Last place where ..... "
Bill,
Re: " The thing is, I expect Germany to be the last place (right now) where neo-socialist fascism would rise."
In 1956 I had a classmate at MIT who was from Germany and he thought it was funny to make 'missed another one' jokes' to our mutual Jewish classmate. My bile rose so I looked at him and said "Deter, thanks to your schrecklicher behavior [ I also spoke German ] I now know how to prevent a third Reich from ever arising again in the Vaterland mit archlochers wie Ihnen:
Law:
1. All Umpa and tuba bands will be banned. This way a blockhead such as you will not be hypnotized into joining Bunds.
2. Army uniforms will be in lavender and pink, Black is banned, so that no one could possibly be intimidated.
3. All military boots must have crepe souls ... preventing Goose Stepping on the cobble streets ... squish, squish.
The kids around me hooted and laughed. Deter leaned forward as to intimidate whereupon my South Boston calm, 'let us discuss this in gentlemanly fashion' took over and as he got closer ... oops ... my knee rose and introduced him to reality and the situation was over. He never wanted to express anti-Semitism to me again.
I ended with "Verdamten Idioten!"
Re: " The thing is, I expect Germany to be the last place (right now) where neo-socialist fascism would rise."
In 1956 I had a classmate at MIT who was from Germany and he thought it was funny to make 'missed another one' jokes' to our mutual Jewish classmate. My bile rose so I looked at him and said "Deter, thanks to your schrecklicher behavior [ I also spoke German ] I now know how to prevent a third Reich from ever arising again in the Vaterland mit archlochers wie Ihnen:
Law:
1. All Umpa and tuba bands will be banned. This way a blockhead such as you will not be hypnotized into joining Bunds.
2. Army uniforms will be in lavender and pink, Black is banned, so that no one could possibly be intimidated.
3. All military boots must have crepe souls ... preventing Goose Stepping on the cobble streets ... squish, squish.
The kids around me hooted and laughed. Deter leaned forward as to intimidate whereupon my South Boston calm, 'let us discuss this in gentlemanly fashion' took over and as he got closer ... oops ... my knee rose and introduced him to reality and the situation was over. He never wanted to express anti-Semitism to me again.
I ended with "Verdamten Idioten!"
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jorvik
Quote
"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by AAAhmed46
I do consider ww2 nazi's to be more right wing.
But today? Atleast in terms of economics their pretty leftwing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not true, Ray.
steady now Bill........I didn't say that
........and anybody who has taken the time to read a hiltler speech will know that he was very left wing
It's important to remember this because that is how these folks get into power
like Ceaucescu in Romania...and I'm guessing that Sadam spouted some type of socialism
Quote
"Anyone what the 'danger' countries for neo-socialist fascism is right now?"
It isn't really that Adam.....what you are seeing in a lot of these countries is a backlash against unfettered immigration......the folks aren't rascist they just want to maintain their own culture and heritage..................look at Ireland with the romanians
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8106306.stm
now this is only one very small area in Belfast...........but look at this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7078532.stm
This looks to me like the Irish have taken the law into their own hands................don't forget in ireland there are a lot of very tough ex terrorists.who will kill at the drop of a hat, but also police their own areas
So superficially this looks like "Socialism" but it isn't..there is a much simpler explanation.
One other thing to consider is that English soldiers fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan ...killed a terrorist and found that he had an Aston Villa tatoo
......so some of the scum in my country will fight their own soldiers...if that is the case they should either be deported or hung as traitors
"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by AAAhmed46
I do consider ww2 nazi's to be more right wing.
But today? Atleast in terms of economics their pretty leftwing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not true, Ray.
steady now Bill........I didn't say that
........and anybody who has taken the time to read a hiltler speech will know that he was very left wingIt's important to remember this because that is how these folks get into power
like Ceaucescu in Romania...and I'm guessing that Sadam spouted some type of socialism
Quote
"Anyone what the 'danger' countries for neo-socialist fascism is right now?"
It isn't really that Adam.....what you are seeing in a lot of these countries is a backlash against unfettered immigration......the folks aren't rascist they just want to maintain their own culture and heritage..................look at Ireland with the romanians
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8106306.stm
now this is only one very small area in Belfast...........but look at this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7078532.stm
This looks to me like the Irish have taken the law into their own hands................don't forget in ireland there are a lot of very tough ex terrorists.who will kill at the drop of a hat, but also police their own areas
So superficially this looks like "Socialism" but it isn't..there is a much simpler explanation.
One other thing to consider is that English soldiers fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan ...killed a terrorist and found that he had an Aston Villa tatoo
......so some of the scum in my country will fight their own soldiers...if that is the case they should either be deported or hung as traitors -
jorvik
That's more a power politics thing....Hitler supported Stalin ..then he didn't,
like the US supported Saddam.then they didn't...........it's national interests.
All politicians do things that suit them. Look at my country with the expences scandal.......the ones with their hands in the honey pot were all nice little socialists, look at bliar he made millions out of being a Socialist
like the US supported Saddam.then they didn't...........it's national interests.
All politicians do things that suit them. Look at my country with the expences scandal.......the ones with their hands in the honey pot were all nice little socialists, look at bliar he made millions out of being a Socialist
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Bill Glasheen
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- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
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The National Socialist party (NAZI) evolved to what many socialist and communist governments evolve to - a totalitarian regime. Hugo Chavez is a working example of that today.
Jim touched on some high points here. To Ray's point, Hitler hated anyone whom he thought put Germany in the pickle it got into after World War I. That would include both the Bolsheviks and the Capitalists. The Jews got in his sights as well. As they say, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. After a while, it was less about socialism and more about Hitler.
- Bill
Jim touched on some high points here. To Ray's point, Hitler hated anyone whom he thought put Germany in the pickle it got into after World War I. That would include both the Bolsheviks and the Capitalists. The Jews got in his sights as well. As they say, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. After a while, it was less about socialism and more about Hitler.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
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- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
