Is a cigar just a cigar?

[Jason Rees]

Mike, I think that some people need the reassurance of everything having a name. Even in the book of Genesis in the Christian Bible, it says Adam named everything under the sun. If that's what people need to memorize things, or feel like they're accomplishing something by memorizing x, y, and z, then that's what they should utilize.

I don't think I needed to be told that a step was a step when I learned to walk. I don't think I need to be told a block is a block is a tool for entering/taking someone off their centerline/grabbing/what-have-you to learn the movement itself. But in my experience that's the way it's taught. And that's okay by me, too.

IOW, I haven't had much of value to say on the topic, so I kept what little opinion I had on the subject to myself.

[MikeK]

That's a valid opinion Jason so don't be shy.

Let me ask, do you think people should hold onto the names as they progress or leave them somewhat behind? It seems to me that the naming process in karate puts limits on how people think of the techniques.

[Jason Rees]

I think most of the people who will hold on to the names aren't likely to let them go. Those who let them go/ see new things in what they do, are like that in other areas of their life. There are people who limit themselves, and those who fight against limits, and then there are those who protest limits while setting them on others.

I agree with you in that those who hold on to the names, keep the names 'sacred' or what have you, and never look beyond those are putting limits on themselves and what they can get out of the techniques.

[Bill Glasheen]

[fivedragons]

Classical Mess...

[fivedragons]

It's amazing to me that every time I come to these Uechi forums I am guaranteed to find an erudite and expert opinion on Uechi ryu from Jorvik and Jim.

I think you guys should change the name of this forum to the "Jim and Jorvik show".

[Van Canna]

"Doesn't apply in the least to WCK, as understanding begins day 1 with clear and concise explanations of exactly what and why...and completion of the entire system normally happens in less than 5 years.... Mastery of course being a life long goal..."

This applies to Uechi Ryu as well.

Completion does imply a degree of ‘proficiency’, depending on the student _ and his dedication to the training in all its aspects.

Uechi-Ryu is a “way”, to build character, health, self-confidence, agility, body conditioning, personal insight, self-awareness, and a more sensitive awareness of the world around us.

In Uechi_ Positive changes in terms of skill, health, and awareness will continue to manifest as training proceeds_

If there is really a hard part, it is persevering over the months and years to gain the necessary proficiency to become truly adept at this art.

Why? Because Uechi is taught as an art form and not as a bunch of fighting moves.

So what is this ‘necessary proficiency’?

Many factors must be considered such as skill development, maturity and sincerity as an individual, as well as the ability to pass knowledge on to others in the dojo environment.

The main stay of this system is the three original kata as taught by Kanbun Uechi.

What’s in a kata?

Each kata teaches a specific concept that must be understood and internalized before the moves of the kata are to mean anything in the way of physical proficiency that will manifest in sport tournaments and defensive capabilities.

1. Sanchin (三戦?) - Literally translated as "3 fights/conflicts". From the kanji for "3" and 戦う ("to fight/to struggle"?). Usually interpreted as three Modes/Conflicts: Mind, Body and Spirit). An alternate interpretation is "Three Challenges" being those of softness, timing, and power.

2. Seisan (十三?) - Literally translated, it means "13". Usually interpreted as "Thirteen modes of attack and defense" or "13 positions to attack/defend from.") An alternate meaning is simply "13th Room Kata", being the form synthesized in the 13th room of Shaolin, using individual techniques taught in the previous training rooms.

This kata now successfully combines the "Three Challenges" concept, and the student can now go back and recognize and further develop those elements in the previous forms.


3. Sanseiryu (三十六?) -

Literally translated, it means simply "36". Usually interpreted as "thirty-six modes of attack and defense" or "36 positions to attack/defend from.").

It can also mean "36th Room Kata" as it is made from techniques taught individually in the previous 35 rooms (or previous 12 rooms in 3 rotations).

Shu Shiwa was also known as "The 36th Room Priest" according to the 1977 Uechi-Ryu Kyohon (Techniques Book). This final kata combines all the previous concepts to pre-empt the attack.

~~

Then there is body conditioning to this style that requires almost daily practice to achieve to the level it should be for contact sparring and self defense.

This is what is meant by it takes years to master the style.

Within a ‘five years’ time frame _ Uechi has always _ presently does_ and will continue to produce most excellent skills apparent in tournament fighting and self defense proficiency, because of the unique elements in the system.

This is not to say that other systems do not accomplish similar objectives.

It has all to do with the way we train and the taking care of our bodies as we persist on a daily basis.

[Bill Glasheen]

It only takes 4 years of medical school to be called doctor.

It takes a decade to decades (at least) to go through enough internship, residency, teaching, and research to become a medical expert.

IMO the same is true in martial arts. Anyone who thinks they are a martial expert after having been spoonfed the forms and exercises of a system is just naive.

But again, that is my opinion.

In the old days, I taught my folks the last kata after they got their shodan. At UVa, I could get people to shodan in 3 to 5 years. (Three years for exceptional athletes) Were they experts after having learned the last form? Far from it. They were just beginning to learn.

I could be wrong, but it's my belief that this is true of all martial systems. This would include the MCMAP. Their slogan is One Mind - Any Weapon. Anyone want to tell me they learn how to fight better/faster than Marines?

I learn new things about what I already know all the time.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

You may find the comparison here interesting.

Completion does imply a degree of ‘proficiency’, depending on the student _ and his dedication to the training in all its aspects.

Uechi-Ryu is a “way”, to build character, health, self-confidence, agility, body conditioning, personal insight, self-awareness, and a more sensitive awareness of the world around us.

In Uechi_ Positive changes in terms of skill, health, and awareness will continue to manifest as training proceeds_


So what is this ‘necessary proficiency’?

Many factors must be considered such as skill development, maturity and sincerity as an individual, as well as the ability to pass knowledge on to others in the dojo environment.

"MCMAP is a synergy of mental, character, and physical disciplines with application across the full spectrum of violence."[5] The disciplines are the foundation of the MCMAP system, as it serves a dual purpose. MCMAP was implemented to increase the combat efficiency, as well as to increase the confidence and leadership abilities of Marines. As stated above, the three disciplines of MCMAP are mental, character, and physical. Marines are required to develop the mind, body and spirit simultaneously and equally.

***

Mental

Warrior Studies focus on individuals that have shown exemplary service on the battlefield, as well as discussion and analysis of combat citations. Martial Culture Studies focus on societies that produce warriors either primarily or exclusively.

***

Character

Development of this discipline involves discussion on Marine Corps core values, ethics, and good citizenship. An instructor can fail a Marine if he or she feels that the student does not adequately possess honor, courage, and commitment.

***

Physical

In MCMAP, only a third of the training involves techniques and physical development. The physical discipline includes the training of fighting techniques, strength, and endurance. This discipline also includes sustainment of skills and techniques already taught, in order to improve skill as well as develop weak-side proficiency.

[JimHawkins]

Since everyone is so interested in hearing about WCK ....

Many MA schools have a never ending curriculum..and that's fine if that suits you..

I point out simply that in WCK the curriculum is designed to be completed in a relatively short time 3 to 7 years...

When you get past the last lesson the formal training is over, finished--completed.. There is no "spoon feeding" one must simply learn the lessons and acquire the skills... There's nothing mysterious about it...

At this stage you are a graduate, some call it a master level. Folks at this level are encouraged to go out and teach, open their own school and explore and even to innovate..

My point was that one does not need decades or even years to grasp or develop real skill... One does not need years in a system/style to formulate a valid opinion either.. In fact one does not need to be a zoologist to identify a raccoon or have an opinion about one..

That's how we do it and it has nothing to do with a commentary on how others do theirs, it is what it is..

Moreover I was commenting and addressing this topic and along the way examples are given and responded to using examples from different systems.. Nothing said was a diss on any other system, but rather comments in keeping with the topic..

If I am to be attacked when addressing a topic in context because I have a difference of opinion on the topic then I can't respond honestly. If this is to be allowed and essentially unmoderated then there is no point in my discussing anything.... And if that's what folks want and need to feel secure, fine by me, but then some folks must be coming from a very weak and frightened position..

Nevertheless I will not be bullied.. If anyone wants to do that then PM me and I'll make arrangements for you to try that with me in person.

[jorvik]

The ideas that it takes 30 years to be profficient at something is ridiculous as is taking 5 years to get to the point where you start to learn
This is why the bad guys do boxing,thai boxing or MMA........do one of them and your good in a couple of months if you train hard.......even going to the Gym is better than that

[MikeK]

When you get past the last lesson the formal training is over, finished--completed.. There is no "spoon feeding" one must simply learn the lessons and acquire the skills... There's nothing mysterious about it...

At this stage you are a graduate, some call it a master level. Folks at this level are encouraged to go out and teach, open their own school and explore and even to innovate..

I like that approach, whether it takes 3 years or 20, the idea of graduating the student is important as it puts the ball in their court to build on what they do either by going for a graduate degree in their style or taking what they know and adding to it from outside. All of us have graduated from something, moved on and grew past school, but the karate world is different. Styles often want you to stick around long past the point where you should be viewing it in your rear view mirror while heading into the big world or at least onto graduate school.

I have to wonder if this extended/life time commitment is why people think a "block is just a block" (though sometimes it is).

[JimHawkins]

I like that approach, whether it takes 3 years or 20, the idea of graduating the student is important as it puts the ball in their court to build on what they do either by going for a graduate degree in their style or taking what they know and adding to it from outside. All of us have graduated from something, moved on and grew past school, but the karate world is different. Styles often want you to stick around long past the point where you should be viewing it in your rear view mirror while heading into the big world or at least onto graduate school.

I have to wonder if this extended/life time commitment is why people think a "block is just a block" (though sometimes it is).

Hi Mike,

I found the approach different when I was introduced to it...

Another aspect that was different to me as well was the idea that certain drills were done and then left behind... In fact the idea was that once you learn a drill especially in basic training and have picked up the intended lesson you move on.. After that you no longer do that drill any more...

This is a foreign concept for many...

"I don't do this drill anymore..."

Well why not?

[Bill Glasheen]

I like that approach, whether it takes 3 years or 20, the idea of graduating the student is important as it puts the ball in their court to build on what they do either by going for a graduate degree in their style or taking what they know and adding to it from outside. All of us have graduated from something, moved on and grew past school, but the karate world is different. Styles often want you to stick around long past the point where you should be viewing it in your rear view mirror while heading into the big world or at least onto graduate school.

I have to wonder if this extended/life time commitment is why people think a "block is just a block" (though sometimes it is).

I think you're mixing topics here.

There's an old saying that transcends martial arts. There are three stages to learning:

• Watching
• Doing
• Teaching

That alone is in line with what you say, Jim. If I've taken a gifted athlete and taught him the entire Uechi system in 3 years, is he "finished"? Well... no.

And not for ANY system.

First of all, it takes a lifetime of DOING to maintain those skills. The certificate on the wall isn't the moon; it is the finger pointing at the moon. If you quit after you get your muckety muck rank - and a lot do - then the brain and body slowly go on automatic flush sequence.

And then there is the teaching part. You THINK you know the information. And then you get in front of a classroom full of people and teach them what you know. And of course young people always know it all, right? And then you bring your first group of beginners up in front of a board for a test, and oh my god.... The board sees multiple Zerox copies of all this person's misunderstanding.

'Scuse me while I kiss this guy!

Err... not exactly!

Do you know how George teaches me? He points out the flaws in my students. Very clever, that George... Understand that George gives his students lots and lots of latitude. And I see him maybe once a year. But a lot can get communicated in a few comments.

And then someone with years of military and/or law enforcement experience is training a friend of yours some interesting evidence-based information. And your friend comes to you with these ideas which seem (at first) to contradict your sacred teachings. So... were you taught wrong? Absolutely not. You just haven't given the material anything more than rote memory learning. You haven't merged that with myriad other important bodies of information that turn a copycat into a warrior.

But if you're a gifted warrior from the womb like some who post here, well... I guess I need to bow to their superior teaching and learning capabilities. Frankly I'm just not that good.

(Tongue firmly planted in cheek.)

I am agreeing with you, Mike. But I'm taking what you say a step further. The Uechi system is very short on material. But you still need people to train with to develop and maintain those skills. And like a college degree, you need to get in the real world and use it before you begin to know just a little something about life.

And then when you reflect back on all that you have learned, you might find that you want to re-think some of those old lessons. I have vivid memories of my first 2 very intensive years of graduate school. Do you know what sucked the most? More than half the material I was taught was information I was taught before. Only second time around, I was expected to know it with a lot greater depth. The problems on our tests were an order of magnitude more difficult.

And... I was expected to use that UNDERGRADUATE knowledge to solve brand new problems. And only when I had developed the ability to do so INDEPENDENTLY was I considered a trained researcher.

And only after I had published a couple dozen papers in my field was I considered an expert.

Does it take forever to teach a Uechi student to fight? Consider that Mr. Rabesa told me he knew how to fight before his first class from George. I believe him. If you don't believe me, well...

And yet... he found value in his training. And then he put it to use by teaching and training some of the best fighters in New England. And he put it to use professionally as a physical education instructor. And he wrote books.

Art is an expert. In my book, damn few fit that mold.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Many MA schools have a never ending curriculum..and that's fine if that suits you..

I point out simply that in WCK the curriculum is designed to be completed in a relatively short time 3 to 7 years...

I agree about schools with never ending curriculums.
I wouldn’t be interested.

But how do we define ‘curriculum’ and where do you get the idea that Uechi is a never ending curriculum?

Curriculum defines as …. All the courses of study offered by an educational institution…

The Uechi curriculum, made up of distinct components, as outlined above, is ‘completed’ within the 3 to 7 years as well.

Many Uechi practitioners do and will open schools as well.

But ‘master level’ after seven years of training is nothing short of ridiculous.

Proficiency yes…’master level’ never…in any martial arts endeavor.

Then again we need to define ‘master level’….Bill has done a good job to point that out in his analogies.

If potential students of the arts really believed the claim of achieving a master status level after 7 years of WC training…WC dojo would have a waiting list seven years long.

WC is a fine system and we all know that Uechi and WC are considered to be sister styles.

I don’t think that WC is under attack in these discussions…it is the claims about the system that are scrutinized.

And it is the manner in which you present the claims that, over time, people have resented and voiced objections over.

I agree that we all should be fair and courteous in these discussions…so in all fairness I hope that you will own up to the fact that over the years you have had a history of knocking Uechi here on a Uechi forum, while pushing your WC.

So why is it that you seem to elicit such rabid responses by so many people all around in these discussions?

I think it is a matter of being able to communicate with respect and foreseeability of resentment when a guest on a Uechi forum, a system different than yours, and when dealing with people who have triple your experience and longevity in MA study.

And this is said without malice, just to point out the truth of the matter.

What you contribute to the discussions and have contributed…is very good…it is just the way you color it that seems to irk many people. That in itself is a failure.

And I have made the same mistakes in the past, something that I have wowed to rectify if at all possible but for the occasional emotional highjack.

All here in a nutshell.

The ideas that it takes 30 years to be profficient at something is ridiculous as is taking 5 years to get to the point where you start to learn

I would agree, except this is not what Bill meant to say and not what Uechi is all about.

The key here is the definition of ‘proficiency’ and that needs to be reflected upon.

I was proficient at busting heads, when i had to, even before I joined a dojo, because of my upbringing and sports related power and speed. And so I did, even as a teenager when I almost killed one of my attackers.

Many of us don’t need any martial arts to ‘bury’ someone with empty hands or with weapons…if we talk about self preservation.

Right now I have a brand new student, Carl, six feet, 4 inches tall, 275 lbs…who lifts people off the ground with a punch or kick, and he will do it to any experienced martial artist who cares to step forward. He came to Uechi because he was bored.

So ‘proficiency’ needs a definition and Bill did a good job of pointing that out, especially when he talks about ‘skill retention’ something that needs continuous training without taking time off…stopping…then resuming on and off.

There is a good safe way to keep testing skills, as many of us on these forums have done and continue doing...it is open tournaments.

Sometimes you should listen to Joe Lewis when he teaches at seminars.

Now why is it that nobody will ‘admonish’ Joe Lewis in person about tournament fighting not worth much in developing ‘real fighting’ proficiency?