I've been reading this post in bits over the last few days due to a suddenly manic schedule. several interesting thoughts here. Having been in your classes and worked with your older students myself, I'd like to add some thoughts for consideration.
First, Bill, IMO, you are excellent at taking mechanical applications apart. viewing from several angles, and putting it back together. Not everyone can do that, and it's a true skill.
I think,however, you expect folks to put things together in the same logical manner and progression that you do, and that's where things get wonky (technical term, that..heh). People don't process the same or even work things out in the same manner...and I am drawing on my special education background and training here...somewhere between trying multiple approaches (which you do ), understanding your student's motivations, and respecting their viewpoints and scaffolding from them...you reach a point of excitement and comprehension...a synergy if you will. I think you have a lot to offer, but is that connection being made?
This is not completely the teacher's responsibility, either..althought they play a significant part. The student has to do the outside practice and find their own motivation and commitment..and..ultimately..boh student and teacher need to determine if they are the right match for eachother, at this time. People grow, lives and schedules change, and so do personal goals and relationships.
Some of your students are physically olderm have physical challenges, and/or are dealing with...well..job, life,etc....just as you have mentioned with the economic changes.
So..to sum up my point...do you know what motivates your students? Are you and these students a good fit NOW? Do you both respect eachother?, Is current life the reason they are distracted from their practice?
just some thoughts to consider.
Brain rigor mortis syndrome
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Shana Moore
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Bill Glasheen
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Akil Todd Harvey
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Happy Thanksgiving All,
One of the reasons I was so interested in becoming a teacher (of academic subjects as well as martial arts) was to answer questions exactly like this one........
I used to wonder why my oldest sister went straight through college without a hickup, why the middle sister dropped out of college and never went back, and why I dropped out of college and subsequently went back and completed not a BS, but a MEd (master of eduction)........
Part of the issue is certainly internal motivation of the students......in the above scenario, we have, at least, in part, seen the differences in motivation in the same family arising from birth order. My current wife is the oldest in her family and I am the youngest in mine......She is a classic type A personality (curently ABD seeking a phd in instructional systems design and me more of a slacker).......
When I was in the grad school of education....a teacher asked us all......
Many teachers when you watch them can be seen to be teaching the material as if to a vacuum, not to a group of individual students with individual motivation and interests........
I say this not to denigrate your teaching style (I have not observed it), but merely to pass on what had been passed on to me.....
It seems that in your new teaching position/situation, you have a different demographic group of students (there may be some overlap of motivation level, etc, but on the whole it seems like a different demographic or you would not feel the need to modify your teaching methods).........
To expect the same method of instruction to work identically for different demographic groups seems kind of naive to me..........For example.....to instruct your students in urban upper class 21st centruy Virginia to act in the same manner as 19th century Okinawan and/or Chinese farmers and/or to expect the same outcomes is expecting a lot.........
I personally was told that Karate do was a way of life and that it would benefit me in more than a single aspect of my life......
I was taught that Sanchin is, at least, in part, a matter of thre conflicts, of mind, of spirit and of body........
Muslim prayer, for example, is supposed to involve mind, body and spirit.......
Sanchin practice, it seems, has the ability to help us all in our mind, our body and our spirit.........Some students, especially those that live in more safe, less crime prone areas (also known as richy rich or cushy,, etc), tend to do less of the physical labor that used to be so much more necessary in the 19th century compared to the 21st century......(I can honestly say that I have never milked a cow, churned butter or plowed a field with a horse or a tractor............The more affluent the neighborhood, the less likely the people who inhabit it work in the fields all day or the construction site (some do, but a smaller percentage than those of the less affluent areas).......
We all seek to get different things out of our karate........those who live in the safer neighborhoods, see less of a need for personal self defense and perhaps a greater need for the other benefits of Sanchin practice, it seems............increased mental concentration and spiritual calm is, seemingly, sought out more by certain folks......
One of the things that I noticed when I worked as a teacher (if I dared to be honest with myself) was that there were students who no mater what i did, good or bad, they would succeed anyway.......And there were certainly students who, regardless of how good or bad I taught, would fail anyway (even in the affluent areas-not everyone, it seems, in interested in physics or statistics)..........Not that we do not have a positive influence on the most successful or the least successful in our classes, but that we tend to have the greatest influence on those we tend to think about less.....the ones who land in the middle..........
Considering that different demographics often have different goals and motivations, it makes sense to expect differing instructional outcomes will result from groups of students coming from differing demographics........
Imagine the new teacher who works in a lower social class demographic part of a city.........they may work harder than the new teacher in the posh suburbs, but they may get lower results........doesnt mean the students are smarte or dumber, they just came with less skills and were less motivated.....
Your current crop of students sounds less adept at physical martial activities than would be found in your run of the mill inner city dojo, but is that a reflection on you the instructor or the students themselves.....?
At an inner city dojo, you would have less trouble getting em to do a kata that would make people's spine tingle and at a suburban dojo in the affluent part of town, it might just be easier to get em to take the GRE and be admitted to law school or med school.......
Bill, I salute you for taking the time to think about the maximal methods of instruction (many do not do this).....Einstein was credited with having said that insanity is defined as doing the same thing, but expecting different results.....I congratulate you for your dedication to the art....
One of the reasons I was so interested in becoming a teacher (of academic subjects as well as martial arts) was to answer questions exactly like this one........
I used to wonder why my oldest sister went straight through college without a hickup, why the middle sister dropped out of college and never went back, and why I dropped out of college and subsequently went back and completed not a BS, but a MEd (master of eduction)........
Part of the issue is certainly internal motivation of the students......in the above scenario, we have, at least, in part, seen the differences in motivation in the same family arising from birth order. My current wife is the oldest in her family and I am the youngest in mine......She is a classic type A personality (curently ABD seeking a phd in instructional systems design and me more of a slacker).......
When I was in the grad school of education....a teacher asked us all......
Do you teach Karate or do you teach adults a form of karate?Do you teach the subject matter or do you teach students?
Many teachers when you watch them can be seen to be teaching the material as if to a vacuum, not to a group of individual students with individual motivation and interests........
I say this not to denigrate your teaching style (I have not observed it), but merely to pass on what had been passed on to me.....
It seems that in your new teaching position/situation, you have a different demographic group of students (there may be some overlap of motivation level, etc, but on the whole it seems like a different demographic or you would not feel the need to modify your teaching methods).........
To expect the same method of instruction to work identically for different demographic groups seems kind of naive to me..........For example.....to instruct your students in urban upper class 21st centruy Virginia to act in the same manner as 19th century Okinawan and/or Chinese farmers and/or to expect the same outcomes is expecting a lot.........
I personally was told that Karate do was a way of life and that it would benefit me in more than a single aspect of my life......
I was taught that Sanchin is, at least, in part, a matter of thre conflicts, of mind, of spirit and of body........
Muslim prayer, for example, is supposed to involve mind, body and spirit.......
Sanchin practice, it seems, has the ability to help us all in our mind, our body and our spirit.........Some students, especially those that live in more safe, less crime prone areas (also known as richy rich or cushy,, etc), tend to do less of the physical labor that used to be so much more necessary in the 19th century compared to the 21st century......(I can honestly say that I have never milked a cow, churned butter or plowed a field with a horse or a tractor............The more affluent the neighborhood, the less likely the people who inhabit it work in the fields all day or the construction site (some do, but a smaller percentage than those of the less affluent areas).......
We all seek to get different things out of our karate........those who live in the safer neighborhoods, see less of a need for personal self defense and perhaps a greater need for the other benefits of Sanchin practice, it seems............increased mental concentration and spiritual calm is, seemingly, sought out more by certain folks......
One of the things that I noticed when I worked as a teacher (if I dared to be honest with myself) was that there were students who no mater what i did, good or bad, they would succeed anyway.......And there were certainly students who, regardless of how good or bad I taught, would fail anyway (even in the affluent areas-not everyone, it seems, in interested in physics or statistics)..........Not that we do not have a positive influence on the most successful or the least successful in our classes, but that we tend to have the greatest influence on those we tend to think about less.....the ones who land in the middle..........
Considering that different demographics often have different goals and motivations, it makes sense to expect differing instructional outcomes will result from groups of students coming from differing demographics........
Imagine the new teacher who works in a lower social class demographic part of a city.........they may work harder than the new teacher in the posh suburbs, but they may get lower results........doesnt mean the students are smarte or dumber, they just came with less skills and were less motivated.....
Your current crop of students sounds less adept at physical martial activities than would be found in your run of the mill inner city dojo, but is that a reflection on you the instructor or the students themselves.....?
At an inner city dojo, you would have less trouble getting em to do a kata that would make people's spine tingle and at a suburban dojo in the affluent part of town, it might just be easier to get em to take the GRE and be admitted to law school or med school.......
Bill, I salute you for taking the time to think about the maximal methods of instruction (many do not do this).....Einstein was credited with having said that insanity is defined as doing the same thing, but expecting different results.....I congratulate you for your dedication to the art....
Last edited by Akil Todd Harvey on Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:30 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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CornMaiden
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Glasheen Sensei,
Maybe there are stumbling blocks intellectually, mentally, emotionally, or physically with those particular students that need to be addresssed.
Are there 'issues' with these students, slow learners, Dyslexia, etc. If slow learners, sometimes you have to dummy down things more for those that are handicapped intellectually.
Physical problems? You may need a different approach. What is the age of these difficult to teach students? Maybe they are physically unable to do what you ask. You are an intellectual man so maybe they are mentally unable to process because you teach like a professor.
Women and men can learn differently, receive things differently. Also, are they afraid of you or have walls up?
It could be either with them or how you are teaching those particular students. Sometimes the way you teach is not the way they necessarily learn. People learn differently.
Is someone else in the class able to teach these difficult students? Maybe you should ask another student you trust (who is objective) their opinion. Maybe another higher ranking student can teach them where you are not able to. Team teach. Sometimes it is not possible to teach everyone with the method you use.
Is there a good connection between you and these students? Do the students have a good disposition to be friendly and approachable. Are they easy to talk to. Do they like you? Do you like them. Does it show? Is there trust between you and the student (s). Were they ever injured emotionally, physically, etc.?
Is there something emotionally going on such as fear, anger, lack of respect? Maybe it is a deeply rooted emotional issue that you need to transcend.
One suggestion would be to look at each of the problem students indivually, and access their strengths and weaknesses. Meet with them, talk to each. You may have to do some one on one. A special education teacher often has to do a one-on-one to address the individuals problem/needs, not that I am saying they are learning challenged.
Sometimes you have do your best and let them go, if necessary.
Corn Maiden
Maybe there are stumbling blocks intellectually, mentally, emotionally, or physically with those particular students that need to be addresssed.
Are there 'issues' with these students, slow learners, Dyslexia, etc. If slow learners, sometimes you have to dummy down things more for those that are handicapped intellectually.
Physical problems? You may need a different approach. What is the age of these difficult to teach students? Maybe they are physically unable to do what you ask. You are an intellectual man so maybe they are mentally unable to process because you teach like a professor.
Women and men can learn differently, receive things differently. Also, are they afraid of you or have walls up?
It could be either with them or how you are teaching those particular students. Sometimes the way you teach is not the way they necessarily learn. People learn differently.
Is someone else in the class able to teach these difficult students? Maybe you should ask another student you trust (who is objective) their opinion. Maybe another higher ranking student can teach them where you are not able to. Team teach. Sometimes it is not possible to teach everyone with the method you use.
Is there a good connection between you and these students? Do the students have a good disposition to be friendly and approachable. Are they easy to talk to. Do they like you? Do you like them. Does it show? Is there trust between you and the student (s). Were they ever injured emotionally, physically, etc.?
Is there something emotionally going on such as fear, anger, lack of respect? Maybe it is a deeply rooted emotional issue that you need to transcend.
One suggestion would be to look at each of the problem students indivually, and access their strengths and weaknesses. Meet with them, talk to each. You may have to do some one on one. A special education teacher often has to do a one-on-one to address the individuals problem/needs, not that I am saying they are learning challenged.
Sometimes you have do your best and let them go, if necessary.
Corn Maiden
Train hard or go home.
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CornMaiden
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You know, Glasheen Sensei, if you are frustrated teaching students 'that don't get it', more than likely those same students are are aware of that. They probably feel the same way, thus are equally frustrated over the fact they cannot learn this and do not please you.
The image below could very well be felt by both parties.
Corn Maiden
The Myth
Sisyphus was son of the king Aeolus of Thessaly and Enarete, and the founder and first king of Ephyra (Corinth). He was the father of Glaucus by the nymph Merope, and the grandfather of Bellerophon.
Sisyphus promoted navigation and commerce, but was avaricious and deceitful, violating the laws of hospitality by killing travelers and guests. He took pleasure in these killings because they allowed him to maintain his dominant position. From Homer onwards, Sisyphus was famed as the craftiest of men. He seduced his niece, took his brother's throne and betrayed Zeus' secrets. Zeus then ordered Thanatos (Death personified) to chain Sisyphus in Tartarus. Sisyphus slyly asked Thanatos to try the chains to show how they worked. When Thanatos did so, Sisyphus secured them and threatened him. This caused an uproar, and no human could die until Ares (who was annoyed that his battles had lost their fun because his opponents would not die) intervened, freeing Death and sending Sisyphus to Tartarus.
However, before Sisyphus died, he had told his wife to throw his naked body into the middle of the public square in attempt to test his wife's love for him. Annoyed by the obedience and loveless decision by his wife, Sisyphus persuaded Persephone, Queen of the Underworld, to allow him to go back to the upper world and scold his wife for not burying his body as a loving wife would. When Sisyphus returned to Corinth, he refused to retreat back to the underworld and was forcibly dragged back to the underworld by Hermes. In another version of the myth, Persephone was directly persuaded that he had been conducted to Tartarus by mistake and ordered him to be freed.
"Sisyphean task" or "Sisyphean challenge"
As a punishment from the gods for his trickery, Sisyphus was compelled to roll a huge rock up a steep hill, but before he could reach the top of the hill, the rock would always roll back down again, forcing him to begin again. The maddening nature of the punishment was reserved for Sisyphus due to his hubristic belief that his cleverness surpassed that of Zeus. Sisyphus took the bold step of reporting one of Zeus' sexual conquests, telling the river god Asopus of the whereabouts of his daughter Aegina. Zeus had taken her away, but regardless of the impropriety of Zeus' frequent conquests, Sisyphus overstepped his bounds by considering himself a peer of the gods who could rightfully report their indiscretions. As a result, Zeus displayed his own cleverness by binding Sisyphus to an eternity of frustration. Accordingly, pointless or interminable activities are often described as Sisyphean. Sisyphus was a common subject for ancient writers and was depicted by the painter Polygnotus on the walls of the Lesche at Delphi. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus)
The image below could very well be felt by both parties.
Corn Maiden
The Myth
Sisyphus was son of the king Aeolus of Thessaly and Enarete, and the founder and first king of Ephyra (Corinth). He was the father of Glaucus by the nymph Merope, and the grandfather of Bellerophon.
Sisyphus promoted navigation and commerce, but was avaricious and deceitful, violating the laws of hospitality by killing travelers and guests. He took pleasure in these killings because they allowed him to maintain his dominant position. From Homer onwards, Sisyphus was famed as the craftiest of men. He seduced his niece, took his brother's throne and betrayed Zeus' secrets. Zeus then ordered Thanatos (Death personified) to chain Sisyphus in Tartarus. Sisyphus slyly asked Thanatos to try the chains to show how they worked. When Thanatos did so, Sisyphus secured them and threatened him. This caused an uproar, and no human could die until Ares (who was annoyed that his battles had lost their fun because his opponents would not die) intervened, freeing Death and sending Sisyphus to Tartarus.
However, before Sisyphus died, he had told his wife to throw his naked body into the middle of the public square in attempt to test his wife's love for him. Annoyed by the obedience and loveless decision by his wife, Sisyphus persuaded Persephone, Queen of the Underworld, to allow him to go back to the upper world and scold his wife for not burying his body as a loving wife would. When Sisyphus returned to Corinth, he refused to retreat back to the underworld and was forcibly dragged back to the underworld by Hermes. In another version of the myth, Persephone was directly persuaded that he had been conducted to Tartarus by mistake and ordered him to be freed.
"Sisyphean task" or "Sisyphean challenge"
As a punishment from the gods for his trickery, Sisyphus was compelled to roll a huge rock up a steep hill, but before he could reach the top of the hill, the rock would always roll back down again, forcing him to begin again. The maddening nature of the punishment was reserved for Sisyphus due to his hubristic belief that his cleverness surpassed that of Zeus. Sisyphus took the bold step of reporting one of Zeus' sexual conquests, telling the river god Asopus of the whereabouts of his daughter Aegina. Zeus had taken her away, but regardless of the impropriety of Zeus' frequent conquests, Sisyphus overstepped his bounds by considering himself a peer of the gods who could rightfully report their indiscretions. As a result, Zeus displayed his own cleverness by binding Sisyphus to an eternity of frustration. Accordingly, pointless or interminable activities are often described as Sisyphean. Sisyphus was a common subject for ancient writers and was depicted by the painter Polygnotus on the walls of the Lesche at Delphi. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus)
Train hard or go home.
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Bill Glasheen
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I know Sisyphus well.
Hemingway had a unique view of Sisyphus and his dilemma. As he saw it, Sisyphus decided to put full effort into his rock pushing - knowing that the rock would roll down anyway. His reason? He wanted to spite the gods by at least appearing to derive pleasure and fulfillment from his "futile" task. It's certainly a good philosophy to carry through the cycle of life.
- Bill
Hemingway had a unique view of Sisyphus and his dilemma. As he saw it, Sisyphus decided to put full effort into his rock pushing - knowing that the rock would roll down anyway. His reason? He wanted to spite the gods by at least appearing to derive pleasure and fulfillment from his "futile" task. It's certainly a good philosophy to carry through the cycle of life.
- Bill
