Remembering the Barefoot Doctors

[mhosea]

I'm a scientist of sorts, so I understand where Bill is coming from. It's one thing to say that chi exists, is a force of nature, another to say that it is a mystical, supernatural force, yet another to say that it is a useful model. The analogy that comes to mind is astrology, not the horoscope stuff but just the ancient "science" of predicting the behavior of objects in the sky. Ancient astrologers were able to develop models that worked without actually understanding very much of anything as it really is. So, if you wanted to know when Mars would appear next, an ancient astrologer could definitely help you. I see no reason why acupuncture, for example, couldn't be similarly useful without chi being a real force of nature. So if you like acupuncture, use it. If it works, you shouldn't have to believe in chi to benefit, just as Mars would appear as the ancient astrologer predicted, whether or not you believed in any of the astrologer's explanations for why it did.

As for the comparison to a belief in God, it isn't cogent unless you also believe that chi is not a force of nature, rather that it also is a fundamentally supernatural force that is not constrained by any physical laws. I suspect this is vacuously hypothetical. Chi is purported to be a natural phenomenon, and so it is in the purview of science to investigate it. Then, like anything else, it comes down to the quality of the studies and what actually is shown and not shown by them.

[f.Channell]

I was watching an episode of Ghost Hunters last year in which they were investigating a haunted church. They asked the Reverend (Episcopal I believe) if he believed in ghosts.
He stated that if you believe in holy spirits and life after death and resurrection that you must also believe in ghosts.

To me chi would fall under the same logical argument.

Like lightening was once a tool of God and later understood perhaps chi will also if it exists, I am sceptical, but not ready to write it off.
F.

[Valkenar]

Chi is purported to be a natural phenomenon, and so it is in the purview of science to investigate it.

It is? Maybe I've just misunderstood, but it's typically been my perception that Chi is regarded as a spiritual rather than natural force. However, as Bill rightly pointed out, there are a lot of different usages of the term Chi.

[mhosea]

Chi is purported to be a natural phenomenon, and so it is in the purview of science to investigate it.

It is? Maybe I've just misunderstood, but it's typically been my perception that Chi is regarded as a spiritual rather than natural force. However, as Bill rightly pointed out, there are a lot of different usages of the term Chi.

I think it is best not to get side-tracked in the semantics of "spiritual" versus "natural", and we know how difficult it is to get a clear articulation of what chi supposed to be. I would simply point out that acupuncture in theory depends on it being possible to manipulate it through natural, rather than spiritual means, so it cannot be purely spiritual in the same sense as the word applies in western religion.

[robb buckland]

".....best not to get side-tracked in the semantics of "spiritual" versus "natural", and we know how difficult it is to get a clear articulation of what chi supposed to be......"

It is fun to exploit the grey areas though !!

[robb buckland]

".......Perhaps you meant I was antiChristian-ITY. That would be a lot closer to the truth, but again, your happiness to assume that because I've been the target of bigotry from some Christians means that I'm against the whole enterprise......"

It is an enterprise............some weeks I have to choose wether to tythe .....or pay my association dues !

[f.Channell]

Speaking of Atheist and anti-christian labels that made that whole thing an ad hominem argument. So now this thread has strawman, ad hominem and probably a few other good invalid argument examples.

I suppose depending on whether you are healing someone or hurting them wtih it, chi can be spiritual or supernatural.
F.

[robb buckland]

(Excuse my ignorance)...........what about the lion and the tinman and toto too ????

Seriously what do you mean by strawman ???

Now give me an appropriate answer or i'll wack ya with the rosary......

[Bill Glasheen]

Seriously what do you mean by strawman ???

"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position."

See Straw man

- Bill

[f.Channell]

It wasn't even one of the 11 fallacies I learned in Logic 111.

Ever notice the tin man, lion and scarecrow had needs but toto didn't need a thing.

that dog had chi!

F.

[robb buckland]

My thanks for the definition

I wish my dogs had chi they could help me shovel this damn driveway !!!

[IJ]

George, I can't get the Saterra link to work. Can you let me know what I'm missing?

Others: I acknowledge the lack of complete similarity between chi belief and religion. They're merely analogous; otherwise chi-ism would be a religion itself. What they share is a pseudocertainty, a certain element of faith, something like that.

It's also worth pointing out that the untestable God, while being a negative is impossible to disprove, is not the most popular form. I'm not sure I have heard anyone tell me they thought God was just watching silently; people tend to believe He plays a role in the goings-on down here, or at least that He directed evolution, or something like that. Or they state they believe in angels, or something along those lines. All of those claims are testable. In brief, if God is actually doing something, we should be able to tell.

[Sue G]

Whether you believe in chi or not, and I dont, it's a bloody USEFUL concept. A model, a tool. A bit like the square root of negative one...

[Bill Glasheen]

Whether you believe in chi or not, and I dont, it's a bloody USEFUL concept. A model, a tool. A bit like the square root of negative one...

Well stated.

I use the concept of yin/yang often when teaching. Particularly with Uechi, it makes sense. The "half hard, half soft" mantra in my opinion is a schitty translation of pangainoon.

The issue (and I've said this often) is that what Westerners call "chi" is many different things in the eyes of people who grow up with Mandarin as a first language and adhere to older cultural descriptions of phenomena. "It" in my opinion just gets lost, muddled, and mangled in the translation and application here in the West. So while I "get" what smarter people are trying to say when they use Chi Gung language, it's possible to come up with better translations with the right training in physics and physiology.

Or... we can use the metaphors and run with it. I say "ducky butt" and "tucky butt" in class to the kids. I say "snort like the dragon" and "breathe fire like the dragon." It works...

- Bill

[mhosea]

In brief, if God is actually doing something, we should be able to tell.

Uh, no. How would you ever determine scientifically that the explanation for an event was divine intervention? You'd have to prove that it is impossible to explain it any other way. That's just not going to happen--ever. A scientist is always going to shrug his shoulders and say that there must be something going on that science just isn't sufficiently advanced enough yet to explain. God could permeate the earth with a clearly vocalized message of some kind, and a good scientist would guess first we were being played by some clever humans, aliens maybe, anything but God.