Learn and forget?

[fivedragons]

So I knew this guy who lived his life in and out of bars and social clubs, etc. Played street hockey, had some rough edges and would mix with the bad boys. But he wasn't a bad guy.

He observed one of my Uechi classes and had nothing but respect for the people he saw there and the training. Sometimes I would talk to him about martial arts and he would patiently let me show him kata. We would talk about what the movements were for. One day, he told me that the secret was to LEARN EVERYTHING I CAN, AND THEN TO FORGET IT.

Of course, I don't pay any mind to people with long hair, wearing boots and Black Sabbath t-shirts, who get drunk on my couch and tell me about the violent encounters they've had, but when they show me wrestling holds that make the large bones in my arms and legs bend, I decide that maybe the fact that I attend karate class and he doesn't, isn't a good reason not to file away some of the things he tells me for later.

[Bill Glasheen]

One day, he told me that the secret was to LEARN EVERYTHING I CAN, AND THEN TO FORGET IT.

There is an old saying that I heard once. For the life of me, I don't seem to be able to find it online. It's something like "First you build the mold, and then you break it." What this means is that first you must master fundamentals, and you do that through unflagging work and practice. Then once you have these basics down, you go freeform off the structure of good fundamentals.

My growing years were the heyday of some of the best rock and roll to date. The really good artists *obviously* were classically trained. Being someone who was raised on classical piano, I could hear it in their technique and mastery of musical theory. But they took this schooling in classical musical theory to their own creative venues. Had they instead learned music in a garage band, you'd get the one-dimensional punk rock music that was famous for maybe half a generation. The good stuff however is still played decades later.

Here are two good examples.

An original, right off the 1971 album.

..... Yes - Roundabout

This is a cover of an original. The mixing is actually better than the original, and you get to see some amazing skill. The real artistry though was in the songwriting.

..... Foreplay/Long Time (Jon's One Man Band Boston Cover)

A long way down the road from that classical music training, eh?

- Bill

[jorvik]

Well this guy is the ultimate for learn and forget .read his story it's cool here is his music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5PF8ykKUWE

[fivedragons]

Bill, I love that stuff, but the "one dimensional" stuff might have more like 3 dimensions to it also. The only thing that matters to me, is that one learns how to express themselves.

The Ramones:

http://youtu.be/3qcMjKxt-dE

The Stooges:

http://youtu.be/EDNzQ3CXspU

The MC5:

http://youtu.be/vx6n2JjGsl0

Jorvik, I love stories like that. The heart of the matter is following the heart.

[fivedragons]

Here's a guy who never had any classical training, except for boot camp and jump school with the 101st Airborne.

http://youtu.be/Koc4YGv90_c

[Bill Glasheen]

Here's a guy who never had any classical training, except for boot camp and jump school with the 101st Airborne.

http://youtu.be/Koc4YGv90_c

You need to read a biography of Jimi Hendrix. To say he had no "classical training" is quite misleading.

In November 1961, fellow serviceman Billy Cox walked past an army club and heard Hendrix playing guitar.[43] Intrigued by the proficient playing, which he described as a combination of "John Lee Hooker and Beethoven", Cox borrowed a bass guitar and the two jammed.[44] Within a few weeks, they began performing at base clubs on the weekends with other musicians in a loosely organized band called the Casuals.[45]

Jimi passed the "10,000 hour rule" at a very early age. He was influenced by some of the best rock and blues players around in his youth.

Remember the story of Ryuyu Tomoyose, trying to trick Kanbun into teaching him. That was Hendrix as a kid. He was playing a broom (which he carried with him everywhere) before he played a one-stringed ukulele (which he used to copy Elvis songs) to myriad throw-away guitars before he had the money to get a decent guitar. His was a journey of self-study similar to what my alma mater called a "University degree." (If you had great credentials upon admission, you could be part of an elite group of students that had no written-in-stone requirements.) He had many influences - either through meetings or via studying their recordings.

And then he threw away the mold and began to innovate.

Here is one of my favorites from him.

..... Jimi Hendrix - Little Wing (Instrumental)

- Bill

[Stryke]

Always wondered how the autodidact fitted into you're model on classical learning being the foundation Bill

Interesting stuff

[fivedragons]

For what it's worth, the message I get from the original quote in hindsight, is maybe coming from a different but related angle. I think he was talking about something that most people go through when they are starting out and become extremely enthusiastic. You know those days when you thought everything your instructor said or taught you was the ultimate secret that could solve everything, and only the people in your dojo had this knowledge? How about all the instructors and black belts in different arts who have explained to you that (insert style or technique, etc.) is garbage, and we have the real stuff. One good way to find out about that is to learn from different people and have them cancel each other out.

I think he was just warning me to leave the training in the dojo when I walk out the door. Remember learning bunkai and thinking that was the only answer to some sterile situation? He observed the class and that the training was excellent. He remarked that the advanced students were extremely tough and focussed. But I think everyone has to get to the point where you put your mind, body and spirit into the training and let it become part of you, without trying to make reality fit whatever you have been practicing.

For example, If i sit and stare at a candle for a while, I could say that it helps me to relax my mind, let go of interfering thoughts and practice being aware of what's going on in the present. If I then go out the door and cross the street, I don't want to be thinking about the candle, or close my eyes and pay attention to my breathing.

It's like the whole technique thing, or different types of drills. They serve a real purpose but they become a danger and a liability if one becomes attached and stuck on them. Anyway, that's what I get from "Learn everything you can, and then forget it".

[fivedragons]

I guess we can all agree on something.

Jimi - Angel

http://youtu.be/lc9XHFnIToA

[Stryke]

Learn it and forget it, because if you've leant it the lessons imparted, and if you need to remember it you've missed it


I get my self in trouble thinking like this

[Bill Glasheen]

Learn it and forget it, because if you've leant it the lessons imparted, and if you need to remember it you've missed it


I get my self in trouble thinking like this

I was just today discussing the difference between surface learning (memorizing facts) and deeper learning (critically evaluating what we are doing). There are layers and layers of this learning and forgetting. Thus I believe we're looking at a bit of an iterative process.

- Bill