Post War (A)
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Re: Post War (A)
Regarding my other point, is there any definitive information one way or the other as to whether or not Kanei may have studied some karate in Okinawa before joining his father in Wakayama?
Glenn
Re: Post War (A)
Ah -- good question. Addressed in upcoming Vol. 4. Here's an extract from the section regarding the "17 Years of Silence":
~~~~~
It is possible that he [Kanbun] spoke very little about his life in China, even over a 17 year period. However, he seems to have maintained his own training. It seems much more credible that during that time, Kanbun simply declined to teach publicly, focusing more on raising his family and maintaining his skills.
My surmise that he probably trained quietly and alone (or with a family member) is simply logical: A man could not stop training for 16 or 17 years, then suddenly take up the role of a Kyoshi-level karate instructor, gathering other adults who were already skilled fierce fighters, and become accepted as their teacher. Even superior fighting skills are not suddenly restored after laying unused for 17 years.
~~~~~
I feel it's a strong probability that Kanei Sensei received some of his father's training prior to the Wakayama Era. Otherwise, he may not have been able to qualify at the teaching level in only 10 years. It seems no other students did, either (no records available), so Kanei Sensei quite probably had training from Kanbun Sensei for years before becoming an "official dojo member" in 1926 or 1927.
Kanei Sensei's statement that he began his training under his father may only allude to the fact that his father didn't actually have a dojo (outside of China) until opening in Wakayama, so Kanei Sensei may have felt he wasn't really a "student" per say, until then.
Re: Post War (A)
I agree that he must've kept up his training during his 17 years of silence. Even foreigners may eventually forget many of his native words after immigrating to America and speak only English. I had forgotten many old computer languages a few years after switching to another computer environment.
Erik
“Old minds are like old horses; you must exercise them if you wish to keep them in working order.”
- John Adams
“Old minds are like old horses; you must exercise them if you wish to keep them in working order.”
- John Adams
Re: Post War (A)
I pretty well cover the language thing too, and more so in Vol. 4. In a nutshell, Kanbun Sensei spoke only a smattering of Chinese (probably Mandarin), and badly at that. Evidence for this is found in some of the sayings he left to us, in particular the truncated "min chin chuu ryu" which was only half of the phrase he used (and learned), and is still used today in some Chinese training. He really butchered the pronunciation, but we tracked down the actual Chinese kanji and pronunciation. I believe "Shuu Shabu" was another example -- a really poor memory of the little Chinese he hadn't used in about 20 years. I think it was just a very bad attempt to recall how the name "Shuu Shiwa / Zhou Zihe" was actually pronounced, and it was just taken far too seriously and literally as "Shuu Shabu" by the modern generation.
His speech was a mixture of mostly Hogen (Oogami or Kunigami dialect), some Japanese (which he didn't speak well anyway), and sprinkled with some (badly remembered) Chinese words.
Kanbun Sensei wasn't unintelligent, he just wasn't a scholar. His mind focused on other things, mostly to do with the training.
His speech was a mixture of mostly Hogen (Oogami or Kunigami dialect), some Japanese (which he didn't speak well anyway), and sprinkled with some (badly remembered) Chinese words.
Kanbun Sensei wasn't unintelligent, he just wasn't a scholar. His mind focused on other things, mostly to do with the training.
Re: Post War (A)
I wonder if his horrible Japanese was passed down to his karate students which resulted in us distorting the count sequence for each moves. During exercises, we hear, "EECH, NEE, SAN, CHEE, GO, ROOK, SHEECH, HUCH, Q, JEW". Or were they spoken in Hogen? Or did the Sinsei properly shorten the words into single syllables to speed up the count. Us English speaker often do that. For instance, instead of Massachusetts, we often just say "Mass" for our state.Seizan wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 4:01 am His speech was a mixture of mostly Hogen (Oogami or Kunigami dialect), some Japanese (which he didn't speak well anyway), and sprinkled with some (badly remembered) Chinese words.
Kanbun Sensei wasn't unintelligent, he just wasn't a scholar. His mind focused on other things, mostly to do with the training.
The Japanese count are pronounced:
ichi, ni, san, yon, go, roku, nana, hachi, kyū, jū.
Erik
“Old minds are like old horses; you must exercise them if you wish to keep them in working order.”
- John Adams
“Old minds are like old horses; you must exercise them if you wish to keep them in working order.”
- John Adams
Re: Post War (A)
Other than slight dialectic differences in pronunciation, most Japanese speak their language pretty well...
As I understand it, Kanbun Sensei's Japanese wasn't horrible, it was just limited. He didn't speak it well, so he spoke it as seldom as possible. His Chinese was at best rudimentary. Being away from China for 15 to 20 years, it's easy to see how his pronunciation of the little Chinese he knew could become a distorted.
Many foreigners misunderstand what they hear, and pronounce it as they believe they heard it in Japan. And many Japanese teachers will not correct a foreigner's poorly-pronounced Japanese for various cultural and personal reasons.
Not hearing or speaking it daily among native Japanese speakers for an extended amount of time (years) will further erode foreign pronunciation of any language.
As far as I know, Kanbun Sensei didn't count moves or segments in kata or technical performances. Counting the number of moves or segments in kata is a modern innovation.
As I understand it, Kanbun Sensei's Japanese wasn't horrible, it was just limited. He didn't speak it well, so he spoke it as seldom as possible. His Chinese was at best rudimentary. Being away from China for 15 to 20 years, it's easy to see how his pronunciation of the little Chinese he knew could become a distorted.
Many foreigners misunderstand what they hear, and pronounce it as they believe they heard it in Japan. And many Japanese teachers will not correct a foreigner's poorly-pronounced Japanese for various cultural and personal reasons.
Not hearing or speaking it daily among native Japanese speakers for an extended amount of time (years) will further erode foreign pronunciation of any language.
As far as I know, Kanbun Sensei didn't count moves or segments in kata or technical performances. Counting the number of moves or segments in kata is a modern innovation.
Last edited by Seizan on Tue Nov 05, 2024 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Post War (A)
I think the spoken simplification of Japanese numbers to a single syllable each is simply because it provides a better cadence while working out. At least that is how it is explained in the dojo I attend where there are a couple people with training in the Japanese language, including one American who is fluent in Japanese and translates between English and Japanese on Zoom calls with Kinjo Sensei's dojo on Okinawa as well as when Kinjo sensei visits the U.S. Everyone in our dojo uses the simplified numbers, it is intentional.
Glenn
Re: Post War (A)
Hi Glenn!
Please see the edit of my previous, above.
Counting cadence is a modern (post-war) Japanese addition to teaching karate, since it worked so well in Japanese military basic training camps when training recruits in military drills. Most teachers (karate, school, etc.) since the early 1950's were raised on this "count-cadence" method in school, dojo, and sports. It's still used today in most dojo I have seen, and in the schools where my wife and I teach.
Counting cadence was not used in the Wakayama Dojo or Zakimi Dojo, and is not used in the Nagahama dojo today.
No Japanese teacher I have known abbreviates any words while directing workouts or group drills. Numbers are already single-syllable words anyway, until passing 10. 1-10 is just often misheard by foreigners, that's all. Being said shortly, sharply, and emphatically often leads to a "foreignization" of the actual pronunciation.
Please see the edit of my previous, above.
Counting cadence is a modern (post-war) Japanese addition to teaching karate, since it worked so well in Japanese military basic training camps when training recruits in military drills. Most teachers (karate, school, etc.) since the early 1950's were raised on this "count-cadence" method in school, dojo, and sports. It's still used today in most dojo I have seen, and in the schools where my wife and I teach.
Counting cadence was not used in the Wakayama Dojo or Zakimi Dojo, and is not used in the Nagahama dojo today.
No Japanese teacher I have known abbreviates any words while directing workouts or group drills. Numbers are already single-syllable words anyway, until passing 10. 1-10 is just often misheard by foreigners, that's all. Being said shortly, sharply, and emphatically often leads to a "foreignization" of the actual pronunciation.
Re: Post War (A)
I am not really thinking of how emphatic the count is done in some dojo, I am referring to formal versus informal pronunciations...ichi pronounced as ee-chee versus eech for example. But I have never heard an informal form of roku that is spoken as a single syllable (rok) except in dojo counting, in every other context I have heard it as two syllables (ro-ku).
Glenn
Re: Post War (A)
Sometimes it's just sloppy Japanese, too...
Formally, much also depends on whether the word is followed by another word, and whether the next word begins with a vowel or consonant, also whether the number is a countable or a level (nana vs. shichi, rokku vs rok, hachi vs. hak, etc.), or whether it is the 4th of a series or the 4th one of some items (chi vs. yon -- one is not a chidan, one is a yondan). And there are several other ways to designate numbers. Ichi, ik (as in ikkyu but not ichikyu), shitosu (meaning one, alone), sho meaning first (one is not an ichidan or ikdan, but a shodan -- first step), and more.
I have heard rokkuji (6 o-clock), rokji, and roji. All correct, just depends on the usage and situation. And to whom you are speaking (one would not use roji to a senior, as if speaking to a child).
No wonder foreigners sometimes get pronunciation confused...
And that's just numbers. There are layers of speaking styles that apply to extreme formality, junior-to-senior speaking (low-level employee to a CEO), equals, senior or adult to juniors or children, the casual Japanese common to the street, etc.
Anyway, to get back on track, Kanbun Sensei kept things as simple and straightforward as possible in his local Okinawan dialect. But I believe his attempts at conveying complex concepts and terms in badly-remembered Chinese or mediocre Japanese have undergone several generations and layers of mispronunciation and misinterpretation.
Going back on topic, let's examine "Min chin chuu ryu". Extract from Vol. 4. This section comes after analyzing several alternate pronunciations and kanji in Chinese, finally finding the one that comes closest in pronunciation and meaning. The "keena" in the phrase is pronounce "kay'ay'-nah". The "iin" at the end of the phrase is pronounced "een" as in seen, lean, mean.
Here's how easy it is to forget proper pronunciation after many years...
~~~~~
It seems to me this is closest to the meaning he meant:
眉 揪 照 亮
肩 也 要 疼
Mei chiu ziu liong,
gen a yiu t’ang”,
“Let the eyes shine bright,
the shoulder also needs to ache”
Mei chiu ziu liong gen a yiu t’ang
[Ending g’s being silent]
(meh chyu zhyu l’ryo gain-a you-ta’een)
“Min chin chuu ryuu keena uta iin”
This phrase refers to fast, rapid-delivery striking until even the backs of the shoulders ache from the repeated "pumping" up-and-down action of the scapula.
Kanbun's memory of the original Chinese pronunciation was probably inaccurate after nearly two decades of not speaking or interacting in Chinese before he started teaching publicly again. This quiet reticence was possibly due in part to the suspicion that might have been aroused by speaking Chinese words in an anti-Chinese political atmosphere.
Although to a fluent Mandarin speaker, this phrase (as spoken by Kanbun Sensei) may sound a bit coarse and vernacular, it is a very helpful cue during practice. With proper training, the scapula becomes more springy and mobile, augmenting the power of blocks and strikes.
[Seizan: I recall that my shoulders and upper back ached considerably during the first few months of retraining in 1998... I had never been trained to use the scapula before, and suddenly I was expected to move them as easily as any other joint.]
This simple training phrase left to us by Kanbun Sensei also gives a new meaning the sets of repeated punches used by many karate styles today. Just punch left, right, left, right, over and over, hundreds of punches. A conceivable purpose for it becomes evident now. The hundreds of punches are not to train the punch, they are to train the shoulders and scapula. The only stimuli for tendon-building is habitual loading, and this describes briefly but concisely the exact training exercise to do it.
The point isn’t to perform hundreds of punches, but to flex the shoulders and scapula hundreds of times correctly – until the shoulders and scapula ache. The multitude of punches is a drill; not a technique to be used for striking, but an exercise to loosen and strengthen the tendons and scapula to be used later in kata and fighting, for striking.
~~~~~
Formally, much also depends on whether the word is followed by another word, and whether the next word begins with a vowel or consonant, also whether the number is a countable or a level (nana vs. shichi, rokku vs rok, hachi vs. hak, etc.), or whether it is the 4th of a series or the 4th one of some items (chi vs. yon -- one is not a chidan, one is a yondan). And there are several other ways to designate numbers. Ichi, ik (as in ikkyu but not ichikyu), shitosu (meaning one, alone), sho meaning first (one is not an ichidan or ikdan, but a shodan -- first step), and more.
I have heard rokkuji (6 o-clock), rokji, and roji. All correct, just depends on the usage and situation. And to whom you are speaking (one would not use roji to a senior, as if speaking to a child).
No wonder foreigners sometimes get pronunciation confused...
And that's just numbers. There are layers of speaking styles that apply to extreme formality, junior-to-senior speaking (low-level employee to a CEO), equals, senior or adult to juniors or children, the casual Japanese common to the street, etc.
Anyway, to get back on track, Kanbun Sensei kept things as simple and straightforward as possible in his local Okinawan dialect. But I believe his attempts at conveying complex concepts and terms in badly-remembered Chinese or mediocre Japanese have undergone several generations and layers of mispronunciation and misinterpretation.
Going back on topic, let's examine "Min chin chuu ryu". Extract from Vol. 4. This section comes after analyzing several alternate pronunciations and kanji in Chinese, finally finding the one that comes closest in pronunciation and meaning. The "keena" in the phrase is pronounce "kay'ay'-nah". The "iin" at the end of the phrase is pronounced "een" as in seen, lean, mean.
Here's how easy it is to forget proper pronunciation after many years...
~~~~~
It seems to me this is closest to the meaning he meant:
眉 揪 照 亮
肩 也 要 疼
Mei chiu ziu liong,
gen a yiu t’ang”,
“Let the eyes shine bright,
the shoulder also needs to ache”
Mei chiu ziu liong gen a yiu t’ang
[Ending g’s being silent]
(meh chyu zhyu l’ryo gain-a you-ta’een)
“Min chin chuu ryuu keena uta iin”
This phrase refers to fast, rapid-delivery striking until even the backs of the shoulders ache from the repeated "pumping" up-and-down action of the scapula.
Kanbun's memory of the original Chinese pronunciation was probably inaccurate after nearly two decades of not speaking or interacting in Chinese before he started teaching publicly again. This quiet reticence was possibly due in part to the suspicion that might have been aroused by speaking Chinese words in an anti-Chinese political atmosphere.
Although to a fluent Mandarin speaker, this phrase (as spoken by Kanbun Sensei) may sound a bit coarse and vernacular, it is a very helpful cue during practice. With proper training, the scapula becomes more springy and mobile, augmenting the power of blocks and strikes.
[Seizan: I recall that my shoulders and upper back ached considerably during the first few months of retraining in 1998... I had never been trained to use the scapula before, and suddenly I was expected to move them as easily as any other joint.]
This simple training phrase left to us by Kanbun Sensei also gives a new meaning the sets of repeated punches used by many karate styles today. Just punch left, right, left, right, over and over, hundreds of punches. A conceivable purpose for it becomes evident now. The hundreds of punches are not to train the punch, they are to train the shoulders and scapula. The only stimuli for tendon-building is habitual loading, and this describes briefly but concisely the exact training exercise to do it.
The point isn’t to perform hundreds of punches, but to flex the shoulders and scapula hundreds of times correctly – until the shoulders and scapula ache. The multitude of punches is a drill; not a technique to be used for striking, but an exercise to loosen and strengthen the tendons and scapula to be used later in kata and fighting, for striking.
~~~~~
Re: Post War (A)
"Counting the number of moves or segments in kata is a modern innovation."
The Americans like to break things into smaller parts for better memorization. But once mastered, all the movements in a kata should flow continuously. Each pause just gives the opponent an opportunity to punch my face in. I do respect Kanbun Sensei's reason for not wanting to count steps.
The Americans like to break things into smaller parts for better memorization. But once mastered, all the movements in a kata should flow continuously. Each pause just gives the opponent an opportunity to punch my face in. I do respect Kanbun Sensei's reason for not wanting to count steps.
Erik
“Old minds are like old horses; you must exercise them if you wish to keep them in working order.”
- John Adams
“Old minds are like old horses; you must exercise them if you wish to keep them in working order.”
- John Adams
