I have determined that I re-act to my opponent instead of acting against. And since that makes no sense, I will try to explain what I mean...
During Kumite I really don't have much trouble getting into an attack mindset. It is easy for me to visualize that this is someone who not only wants but is also trying to hurt me, and I can then focus on their intent and use it to fuel mine.
However, during two man stuff, if my partner doesn't show intent, then I have trouble developing my own. It's almost like I need to feel an actual physical threat in order to re-act to it.
I rely on the other person to set the tone instead of setting it myself.
Is this just a lack of focus or part of that oh so wonderful female mindset? Has anyone else felt this and how did you deal with it? HELP!!! Getting extremely frustrated, which isn't helping either.
------------------
Shelly
Act or Re-act
Moderator: Available
Act or Re-act
Shelly you asked “Is this just a lack of focus or part of that oh so wonderful female mindset?”
I would say it is not female mindset that lends itself to lack of focus. Some of the most focused karate-ka at my dojo are females. I think it has more to do with familiarity breeding contempt?
Perhaps it is because you know what the attack is going to be that you have a lack of intent in your defence. Don’t get complacent in your karate. Every once in a while in our dojo we will do something fun like Kanshiwa Bunkai and change what the attack is supposed to be (kick instead of punch, punch instead of kick) - sometimes we have two or three attacks come in all at once. What helps is there can be no anticipation (yes, of course you know there will be an attack, but you will not know the technique).
Anticipation leads to a narrowness because you instill your beliefs and your own mindset in what the attack will be (better to be ready for anything and everything).
Another drill I have done in our dojo which helps (and which was a blast) was for everyone to line their belts up on the floor in a starburst pattern with one person in the middle. The rest of the people get a number and slowly revolve around the person in the middle. When their number is called, they jump in, throw a technique and the person in the middle gets to defend. This is a good drill as it “keeps you on guard” at all times while being in the middle and you don’t what is coming in or from where. There is a variety of what the technique is, where it is coming from and how fast, strong and focused it will be.
Try and remember that the intent of your defence move should be to make it an attack move. This will make your partner “sit up and take notice” and hopefully heighten their attack/defence. Finally, don’t get frustrated!!!!
------------------
I would say it is not female mindset that lends itself to lack of focus. Some of the most focused karate-ka at my dojo are females. I think it has more to do with familiarity breeding contempt?
Perhaps it is because you know what the attack is going to be that you have a lack of intent in your defence. Don’t get complacent in your karate. Every once in a while in our dojo we will do something fun like Kanshiwa Bunkai and change what the attack is supposed to be (kick instead of punch, punch instead of kick) - sometimes we have two or three attacks come in all at once. What helps is there can be no anticipation (yes, of course you know there will be an attack, but you will not know the technique).
Anticipation leads to a narrowness because you instill your beliefs and your own mindset in what the attack will be (better to be ready for anything and everything).
Another drill I have done in our dojo which helps (and which was a blast) was for everyone to line their belts up on the floor in a starburst pattern with one person in the middle. The rest of the people get a number and slowly revolve around the person in the middle. When their number is called, they jump in, throw a technique and the person in the middle gets to defend. This is a good drill as it “keeps you on guard” at all times while being in the middle and you don’t what is coming in or from where. There is a variety of what the technique is, where it is coming from and how fast, strong and focused it will be.
Try and remember that the intent of your defence move should be to make it an attack move. This will make your partner “sit up and take notice” and hopefully heighten their attack/defence. Finally, don’t get frustrated!!!!
------------------
-
Shelly King
Act or Re-act
Mary
I would in know way imply that lack of focus is a female trait. It was a one or the other thing, not both.
Other than that, I don't know. Something isn't clicking...I'm not sure what. I just can't summon that emotional content during regular drills like I can during kumite. I know it's there, just can't tap it when I want to. Besides just working drills, is there any other things you did to cultivate that "killer" attitude? As for frustrating, I'm at the point when I'm trying to make my blocks work for me. I can get it right about 2 out of 10 times. Just enough to know I can do it, but not enough to do it whenever I want to. Plus, I'm getting really tired of everyone making a big deal over the little buises I get. Gee, if they don't bother me, why do they upset everyone else so much?
------------------
Shelly
I would in know way imply that lack of focus is a female trait. It was a one or the other thing, not both.
Other than that, I don't know. Something isn't clicking...I'm not sure what. I just can't summon that emotional content during regular drills like I can during kumite. I know it's there, just can't tap it when I want to. Besides just working drills, is there any other things you did to cultivate that "killer" attitude? As for frustrating, I'm at the point when I'm trying to make my blocks work for me. I can get it right about 2 out of 10 times. Just enough to know I can do it, but not enough to do it whenever I want to. Plus, I'm getting really tired of everyone making a big deal over the little buises I get. Gee, if they don't bother me, why do they upset everyone else so much?
------------------
Shelly
Act or Re-act
Shelly,
>>However, during two man stuff, if my partner doesn't show intent, then I have trouble developing my own. It's almost like I need to feel an actual physical threat in order to re-act to it.
I rely on the other person to set the tone instead of setting it myself. <<
You recognize you are the other half of the equation. You want intent, give more intent. Say calmly to your partner, "get ready, I am going to try to hit hit you." And then try to hit him/her, at whatever speed you think appropriate to your partner.
Nothing like getting hit to bring a little seriousness back into the practice.
Do it for yourself and do it for your partner.
david
>>However, during two man stuff, if my partner doesn't show intent, then I have trouble developing my own. It's almost like I need to feel an actual physical threat in order to re-act to it.
I rely on the other person to set the tone instead of setting it myself. <<
You recognize you are the other half of the equation. You want intent, give more intent. Say calmly to your partner, "get ready, I am going to try to hit hit you." And then try to hit him/her, at whatever speed you think appropriate to your partner.
Nothing like getting hit to bring a little seriousness back into the practice.
Do it for yourself and do it for your partner.
david
-
gmattson
- Site Admin
- Posts: 6073
- Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Lake Mary, Florida
- Contact:
Act or Re-act
It has been my experience that women can control the karate environment in which they participate. A strong punch or kick must be blocked with an effective block, regardless of whether it is delivered by a man or woman.
In working out with a partner, actions speak much louder than words.
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GEM
In working out with a partner, actions speak much louder than words.
------------------
GEM
Act or Re-act
Shelly..."anything else you did to cultivate that killer attitude"...
I don't know as I have a "killer" attitude but I know I approach working with a partner as a very serious matter. I want my partner to respect my karate (and me) as much as I respect them back. I guess I try not to have any "emotional" content when I do anything in karate...I just try to be fierce and focused. When I spar, I try to have no emotion, I try to be blank, almost cold, and not anticipate. When I do two person set I try to make it the same.
Just think, 2 out of 10 times is better than 0 out of 10 on the blocks. I will try and think of some more stuff...
------------------
I don't know as I have a "killer" attitude but I know I approach working with a partner as a very serious matter. I want my partner to respect my karate (and me) as much as I respect them back. I guess I try not to have any "emotional" content when I do anything in karate...I just try to be fierce and focused. When I spar, I try to have no emotion, I try to be blank, almost cold, and not anticipate. When I do two person set I try to make it the same.
Just think, 2 out of 10 times is better than 0 out of 10 on the blocks. I will try and think of some more stuff...
------------------
Act or Re-act
I agree that a weak attack is disrespectful to your partner and as a teacher, I'm always on the lookout for those who hit weak because the 'blocks hurt." Juat as bad is punching away from the target to 'help' them to do it better - some help, hey?
BUT: my main point to this post is that this is a specifically martial art problem, not a self defense problem in that if you wait for a hostile action that you can react to when outside the dojo and in an aggressive situation, you've already lost. If you are being aware and analytical and if you have set your boundaries, (Back off! Stay away. Leave me alone! etc.) then yu must , and have a legal right to hit them because the attack has already started, it just hasn't got physical yet. Especially if you are small, female, older, or outnumbered. I have hit countles trained folks (in training) who could not stop me because I was close enough to hit them without moving my body, even when their hands were up and ready.
I use a spar pro dummy to teach pure attack, because it doesn't have any arms and can't move. You must decide where to define his actions as an attack but if a real attacker gets to hit you first, your definition has sabotaged your self defense.
I'm having trouble with my browser here and I can't scroll around and check how this all came out - I hope it ounds ok...
------------------
Ted T.
The Fighting Old Man
BUT: my main point to this post is that this is a specifically martial art problem, not a self defense problem in that if you wait for a hostile action that you can react to when outside the dojo and in an aggressive situation, you've already lost. If you are being aware and analytical and if you have set your boundaries, (Back off! Stay away. Leave me alone! etc.) then yu must , and have a legal right to hit them because the attack has already started, it just hasn't got physical yet. Especially if you are small, female, older, or outnumbered. I have hit countles trained folks (in training) who could not stop me because I was close enough to hit them without moving my body, even when their hands were up and ready.
I use a spar pro dummy to teach pure attack, because it doesn't have any arms and can't move. You must decide where to define his actions as an attack but if a real attacker gets to hit you first, your definition has sabotaged your self defense.
I'm having trouble with my browser here and I can't scroll around and check how this all came out - I hope it ounds ok...
------------------
Ted T.
The Fighting Old Man
-
Shelly King
Act or Re-act
I think we slightly missed the point. I don't have a problem with my training partners, usually. And when I do, it's fixable. The problem is me. During kumite I can get the calm, cold, blank attitude easily (my glare is actually coming along pretty well also). During kyu kumite or kata I can't. Even with a partner showing intent and landing a few good ones, I just can't get the same level of intent. Maybe it's the lack of adrenaline or focus, I don't know. I don't committ very well to my attacks but that is because I know they aren't very good. I'm working on them and know as I get more confident and quicker with them I'll committ to the attack better. I enjoy hard training and the physical side of Uechi. The harder we train, the harder I want to train. But I don't know how to train the mental side. How do I get to the point where I can switch on that attitude when I need it?
Funny side note: Last night learned valuable lesson as sensei was busy trying to turn me into a human pretzel...out of force of habit from working with my husband I reached around behind my head to grab his hair, didn't even think about doing it, just did it...unfortunately learned you can't grab the hair of a balding man especially when he's been sweating! Sorry sir, couldn't resist.
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Shelly
[This message has been edited by Shelly King (edited 10-19-99).]
Funny side note: Last night learned valuable lesson as sensei was busy trying to turn me into a human pretzel...out of force of habit from working with my husband I reached around behind my head to grab his hair, didn't even think about doing it, just did it...unfortunately learned you can't grab the hair of a balding man especially when he's been sweating! Sorry sir, couldn't resist.
------------------
Shelly
[This message has been edited by Shelly King (edited 10-19-99).]
Act or Re-act
Ha! Men and women differ in approach - even in interpretation of this topic it seems...
Two very valid topics have emerged thus far as I see it:
1) Intent in attack (physical) and
2) Intent in defense (mental)
My sensei had a little sign in his dojo in NY in the early seventies. It said "Things that are different are not the same." (YOU figure it out - don't ask me!)
As for what is brought up here - it is the same thing - but different. The line between attack and defense blurs the longer we study. And the mental and physical aspects blend as well.
First: Intent in attack, for example in kumite - is a continuing obstacle, further complicated by the gender difference. Some men will always have a problem attacking a woman in the dojo with force. I have had some of my best male students throw ridiculous punches that seem to ricochet off some invisible force field landing so far away from me that I don't even have to move. I frustrate their pre-arranged kumite rhythm by just standing there saying that I'm not going to block if they are not going to make me. They grin foolishly and try a couple more times until I finally have to block. (This is not the problem with all guys however - I have had cases where the attacks came in VERY fast and hard - harder than I could handle at that time - resulting in injury - but that is another thread.) Some men have the gentleman courtesy programmed in so deep that they have a hard time hitting a woman even when they are "supposed" to - one thing to work on. On the flip side of the same coin, as the good doctor remembers from prior threads, some women have a hard time actually HITTING anything. Again, programmed in through culture... "a lady doesn't hit" or some other agenda. Again, something to work on. Worthy of suggestion for sure! Anyone have any ideas on how to overcome either of these social taboos that affect dojo practice? It works against effective training if you don't work through these obstacles.
Second: I think I can see where you are coming from Shelly. Aside from the physical intent on attack/defense - you are concerned with developing the mental intent. I don't know if you have children or not, but either way, I'm sure you can envision what I refer to as the "mother-bear" instinct if a child of yours was to be threatened. No question of mental intent in that case. We discuss this in our self-defense classes - usually I pose two scenarios: the first is so and so attacker, yea big and yea pounds, such and such situation etc. How many women feel like they can defend themselves when he threatens them I ask - only a few hands go up. When the scenario is changed to include a child about to be hurt or molested, almost every hand goes up when they are again asked how many feel like they could fight effectively. My question then is why does it take the defense of another (the child) to make us feel confident about our ability to engage in a physical confrontation? Why are we not "worthy" as individual beings? Something to consider.
As for developing your intent in the dojo, there are many ways you can develop a stronger mental intent during kumite and kata practice. One thing I found effective in my minnow days before shodan was to perform seisan one move at a time, visualizing an actual attack at each move in the kata and performing my response with as much ferocity and power as I could muster. Sometimes I'd try the move against a heavy bag, or against a willing partner dressed in protective gear. The trick was to make the attack realistic and frightening in my mind. The worse I could make the attack mentally, the stronger I could make my defense physically. By nature I am not a violent person, but I really went as far as I could take my imagination on the mental vision of the attacks. The more life threatening, dangerous, bloody or frightening the better. That may be controversial, but it pulled some primal responses out of me that I believe manifested themselves in my kata in resulting positive ways.
I've also read, in my study of various mindsetting techniques, that if you mentally prepare yourself for the absolute worst-case scenario, the ugliest confrontation possible, then it is likely that your imagination will take you farther in the threat than the actual reality ever will. I've done this when a potential real-life situation was brewing: visualized the worse thing that could happen to me, and how I would fight like a banshee to get out of it - how far I would go if pushed, then pushed farther yet. We will have to ask our resident "master of mindset" to comment further on this. This is just one way to incorporate the mental preparation, or mindset aspect of training into your real life situations.
As for dojo practice, specifically kumite, if you are looking for that "spark" that lights your fire of intent during a pre-arranged kumite or a sparring match - you will have to develop a technique that works for you. In our dojo, sparring matches in the upper ranks look really intense - as if the participants really hate each other. Eyes look fierce and glaring, and posture and moves seem agressive - then as soon as time is called, or the exercise is over, smiles break out and there are claps on the back and sometimes laughter. I don't know how to explain how this has evolved - but it must be a result of our teacher. He is a man of few words, but this is a trait I see in most of his seniors. They don't spar too often, but when they do, the energy fills the room and seriously, even animals walking past (when we have a workout outside) will stop and watch. It's weird. When I am working with my students, and especially women, some need more encouragment than others to develop this ferocity. Sometimes with a really laid back karateka, I'll try to spur them on with comments referring to aggravations at work, in-laws, teenage children, whatever I know will get them a bit riled - and try to get them to put more agression on the floor. This isn't necessary as much as they advance in rank, and with some students it is not necessary at all, but it helps with some. So you might try to put yourself in a different mental state just before a match - to try and tap into some involuntary stress chemicals you can channel into some extra "dragon" on the floor. Allwo yourself to dwell for a moment on someone or something that really p***** you off. After some practice, you should be able to call up the dragon without the imagery.
So, as you may have gathered by now - the live power line is out of my yard and back on the pole where it should be - most of the electronics in my house are completely fried from the power surges - but somehow this old computer survived - so here I am again. I still won't be able to post much during the week - but I'll be reading and catching up on weekends. Thanks for continuing the discussions.
Peace,
Lori
Two very valid topics have emerged thus far as I see it:
1) Intent in attack (physical) and
2) Intent in defense (mental)
My sensei had a little sign in his dojo in NY in the early seventies. It said "Things that are different are not the same." (YOU figure it out - don't ask me!)
As for what is brought up here - it is the same thing - but different. The line between attack and defense blurs the longer we study. And the mental and physical aspects blend as well.
First: Intent in attack, for example in kumite - is a continuing obstacle, further complicated by the gender difference. Some men will always have a problem attacking a woman in the dojo with force. I have had some of my best male students throw ridiculous punches that seem to ricochet off some invisible force field landing so far away from me that I don't even have to move. I frustrate their pre-arranged kumite rhythm by just standing there saying that I'm not going to block if they are not going to make me. They grin foolishly and try a couple more times until I finally have to block. (This is not the problem with all guys however - I have had cases where the attacks came in VERY fast and hard - harder than I could handle at that time - resulting in injury - but that is another thread.) Some men have the gentleman courtesy programmed in so deep that they have a hard time hitting a woman even when they are "supposed" to - one thing to work on. On the flip side of the same coin, as the good doctor remembers from prior threads, some women have a hard time actually HITTING anything. Again, programmed in through culture... "a lady doesn't hit" or some other agenda. Again, something to work on. Worthy of suggestion for sure! Anyone have any ideas on how to overcome either of these social taboos that affect dojo practice? It works against effective training if you don't work through these obstacles.
Second: I think I can see where you are coming from Shelly. Aside from the physical intent on attack/defense - you are concerned with developing the mental intent. I don't know if you have children or not, but either way, I'm sure you can envision what I refer to as the "mother-bear" instinct if a child of yours was to be threatened. No question of mental intent in that case. We discuss this in our self-defense classes - usually I pose two scenarios: the first is so and so attacker, yea big and yea pounds, such and such situation etc. How many women feel like they can defend themselves when he threatens them I ask - only a few hands go up. When the scenario is changed to include a child about to be hurt or molested, almost every hand goes up when they are again asked how many feel like they could fight effectively. My question then is why does it take the defense of another (the child) to make us feel confident about our ability to engage in a physical confrontation? Why are we not "worthy" as individual beings? Something to consider.
As for developing your intent in the dojo, there are many ways you can develop a stronger mental intent during kumite and kata practice. One thing I found effective in my minnow days before shodan was to perform seisan one move at a time, visualizing an actual attack at each move in the kata and performing my response with as much ferocity and power as I could muster. Sometimes I'd try the move against a heavy bag, or against a willing partner dressed in protective gear. The trick was to make the attack realistic and frightening in my mind. The worse I could make the attack mentally, the stronger I could make my defense physically. By nature I am not a violent person, but I really went as far as I could take my imagination on the mental vision of the attacks. The more life threatening, dangerous, bloody or frightening the better. That may be controversial, but it pulled some primal responses out of me that I believe manifested themselves in my kata in resulting positive ways.
I've also read, in my study of various mindsetting techniques, that if you mentally prepare yourself for the absolute worst-case scenario, the ugliest confrontation possible, then it is likely that your imagination will take you farther in the threat than the actual reality ever will. I've done this when a potential real-life situation was brewing: visualized the worse thing that could happen to me, and how I would fight like a banshee to get out of it - how far I would go if pushed, then pushed farther yet. We will have to ask our resident "master of mindset" to comment further on this. This is just one way to incorporate the mental preparation, or mindset aspect of training into your real life situations.
As for dojo practice, specifically kumite, if you are looking for that "spark" that lights your fire of intent during a pre-arranged kumite or a sparring match - you will have to develop a technique that works for you. In our dojo, sparring matches in the upper ranks look really intense - as if the participants really hate each other. Eyes look fierce and glaring, and posture and moves seem agressive - then as soon as time is called, or the exercise is over, smiles break out and there are claps on the back and sometimes laughter. I don't know how to explain how this has evolved - but it must be a result of our teacher. He is a man of few words, but this is a trait I see in most of his seniors. They don't spar too often, but when they do, the energy fills the room and seriously, even animals walking past (when we have a workout outside) will stop and watch. It's weird. When I am working with my students, and especially women, some need more encouragment than others to develop this ferocity. Sometimes with a really laid back karateka, I'll try to spur them on with comments referring to aggravations at work, in-laws, teenage children, whatever I know will get them a bit riled - and try to get them to put more agression on the floor. This isn't necessary as much as they advance in rank, and with some students it is not necessary at all, but it helps with some. So you might try to put yourself in a different mental state just before a match - to try and tap into some involuntary stress chemicals you can channel into some extra "dragon" on the floor. Allwo yourself to dwell for a moment on someone or something that really p***** you off. After some practice, you should be able to call up the dragon without the imagery.
So, as you may have gathered by now - the live power line is out of my yard and back on the pole where it should be - most of the electronics in my house are completely fried from the power surges - but somehow this old computer survived - so here I am again. I still won't be able to post much during the week - but I'll be reading and catching up on weekends. Thanks for continuing the discussions.
Peace,
Lori
Act or Re-act
Shelly-san,
One question - which pre-arranged kumite are you concerned most with? I may have another tip or two depending...
Peace,
Lori
One question - which pre-arranged kumite are you concerned most with? I may have another tip or two depending...
Peace,
Lori
Act or Re-act
Shelly,
The truth is that it is difficult to instill “realism” in women’s practice of “violent movements”
Because most women abhor violence; again it is a gender thing!
Karate applications are the practice of “ violence” whether we like it or not!
The best women practitioners I have seen are the ones who can muster up an “ intense” attitude in all they do, whether it is “in love or in war”! The ones who are destined to fail exhibit certain self-defeating personality traits I won’t go into!
If you really want to be effective in conditioning the “inner violence” of the martial arts for release in defensive situations which may well put your life at stake, you must combine “ mental” as well as “physical” discipline into every moment of your workouts without any bantering around, socializing, smiling or talking nonsense- until the class is over! I am not suggesting that you do that, but it is a common occurrence in the average class!
As you train, you must feel a certain transforming power welling up inside of you, calling forth commanding “emotions” such as love, worries and fears!
As you face off with your partner, or even when performing intense kata, each move you make should be visualized as a problem with a solution determined to go in your favor!
The intense attitude you seek, switches on if you imagine you are making any movement to preserve the lives of the people you love, of striking back at those who might have hurt you, and of loving yourself and the things you will love doing in the future with your husband and family!
Pretty tall order for some women but the best tool there is to get to a certain “ mindset”!
Old Chinese proverb: “ the tears that the eyes don’t weep, the organs will”
Think about the message of the proverb, and along with the rain come the thunder and lightning!
Reference: Matt Thomas…. The cleansing of the storm!
------------------
Van Canna
The truth is that it is difficult to instill “realism” in women’s practice of “violent movements”
Because most women abhor violence; again it is a gender thing!
Karate applications are the practice of “ violence” whether we like it or not!
The best women practitioners I have seen are the ones who can muster up an “ intense” attitude in all they do, whether it is “in love or in war”! The ones who are destined to fail exhibit certain self-defeating personality traits I won’t go into!
If you really want to be effective in conditioning the “inner violence” of the martial arts for release in defensive situations which may well put your life at stake, you must combine “ mental” as well as “physical” discipline into every moment of your workouts without any bantering around, socializing, smiling or talking nonsense- until the class is over! I am not suggesting that you do that, but it is a common occurrence in the average class!
As you train, you must feel a certain transforming power welling up inside of you, calling forth commanding “emotions” such as love, worries and fears!
As you face off with your partner, or even when performing intense kata, each move you make should be visualized as a problem with a solution determined to go in your favor!
The intense attitude you seek, switches on if you imagine you are making any movement to preserve the lives of the people you love, of striking back at those who might have hurt you, and of loving yourself and the things you will love doing in the future with your husband and family!
Pretty tall order for some women but the best tool there is to get to a certain “ mindset”!
Old Chinese proverb: “ the tears that the eyes don’t weep, the organs will”
Think about the message of the proverb, and along with the rain come the thunder and lightning!
Reference: Matt Thomas…. The cleansing of the storm!
------------------
Van Canna
Act or Re-act
Ok, shelly,
when you wrote: "I don't know. I don't committ very well to my
attacks but that is because I know they aren't very good."
I thought immediatly that "sure you know" - you just told us...your supposed lack of committment is lack of confidence and as you become more used to and better at attacks, the problem will fade. Maybe find a partner to defend only and attack till it is as natural as defending. Do light makiwara work to develope your weapons and lessen injury from hitting and hit a light to medium bag for awhile - this stuff should help cross the barrier.
Good luck, train hard,
------------------
Ted T.
The Fighting Old Man
when you wrote: "I don't know. I don't committ very well to my
attacks but that is because I know they aren't very good."
I thought immediatly that "sure you know" - you just told us...your supposed lack of committment is lack of confidence and as you become more used to and better at attacks, the problem will fade. Maybe find a partner to defend only and attack till it is as natural as defending. Do light makiwara work to develope your weapons and lessen injury from hitting and hit a light to medium bag for awhile - this stuff should help cross the barrier.
Good luck, train hard,
------------------
Ted T.
The Fighting Old Man
-
Shelly King
Act or Re-act
OK...Thanks for all the advice, as usual. I love having all this experience available at the touch of a button and as always, I ended up with all kinds of things to work on and strive for...however, I think we have covered this from about every angle.
Lori-san
If you would be so kind as to close this thread and start one of the threads you have been hinting around about...finally.
------------------
Shelly
Lori-san
If you would be so kind as to close this thread and start one of the threads you have been hinting around about...finally.
------------------
Shelly
