Fill in the blank "_______for a woman"

david · Post by **david** » Fri Jan 07, 2000 4:24 pm

Raffi,

Oops... No, I did not intend to imply anything negative about what you posted. Quite to the contrary. Anybody who saw Margaret's performance that day, including the judges, agreed it was a GREAT performance. PERIOD. Anyone ignorant enough to say "good for a woman" would not be insulting Margaret but the field of talented competitors including you, Fidele, Peter McCrae and several others.

Shelly, I don't think you can get away from the comparisons and associations (and sexism). They are there. Hopefully, not on the teacher's part. The teacher should simply be concerned, as you are, with training and developing your skills to the best of your ability. And, if we are talking about martial skills, it goes beyond brute power to other physical and mental attributes. However, if we get caught up with just brute power as a measurement, then females and the small among us (myself included) will always be considered somehow "less than." This totally misses the point of being the best we can be or trained to become...

Raffi and I both agree, if you put a knife into the hands of a female practitioner, where the steel edge and the individual's skills do the "work" instead of brute force... even the ignorant will have their eyes opened (if not their guts spilling out...) But, here we're moving away from empty hand training into the force continuum and related mindset. We are now talking about martial/combat arts where it's not a matter of pride to be "stronger" but a matter of being able to emerged as the "survivor" in a life and death scenario. Anything else becomes just extraneous b.s.

Raffi, I am a pure novice in the FMA's. Started a little over three years ago because of several incidents where large guys and greater number of guys were taken out by the "slice and dice" techniques. Also, I was breaking up gang fights at my work site and these kids were packing knives among other things. I've been doing mostly Lanada Escrima with George Brewster. The style is mostly largo mano. I've also recently started working with an assistant instructor, Jack Bernard, in the Pekiti Tirsia International group under Tuhon Bill McGrath. P-T is definitely more "up close and personal" and more in conformity with my natural style. I also attend various FMA seminars when I get a chance.

I am not a "great thinker" or dogmatic when it comes to martial arts. I'll learn anything and take what works for me without being too concerned about the "orthodoxy" or "politics" involved. I said this before -- the street fighter/survivor tends to be a "generalist" and not a "specialist" in any one martial aspect of training, though s/he can favor a certain aspect.

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited January 07, 2000).]

Mary S · Post by **Mary S** » Fri Jan 07, 2000 9:02 pm

Reading the posts on this thread reminds me of that Nike ad that used to run on the telly with the young girls talking about sports...."If you let me play sports I'll grow up to be (fill in the blank)" and every thing was positive - from "someone who will be less likely to end up in an abusive domestic situation" to "someone who does not have an eating disorder" to "a role model for other girls".

My point is that it is amazing the power words have. We can build up or tear down in a heartbeat. A wise person (note: non-gender specific) will always think quickly and speak slowly...I have always thought compliments to be non-gender specific too...

- maybe I'm wrong...

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Jackie Olsen · Post by **Jackie Olsen** » Sat Jan 08, 2000 7:15 pm

Shelly...

I'm a fairly "tall & meaty" person,too. Here's a comment I recently received: "You use your size and weight well for a woman." AARGH.

Jackie

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Sun Jan 09, 2000 9:45 pm

In my early days of karate, I had a difficult time fighting with women. I was always careful with my techniques and could not imagine, for the life of me, how anyone smack hit a woman. To me, women were not meant to hit; sorry if that is a chauvanistic attitude, but that was my upbringing and I carried that mindset onto the mat.

While engaged in a rather rigorous and robust sparring match with a woman in my kyu days, the unexpected happened -- my partner knocked me out! From then on, I looked past the gender of a fighter: when I was young I looked instead, at the color of the belt, and as years went by I looked at the technique.

I have come to know some real tough karate practitioners of the opposite sex and they deserve respect as tough karate practitioners.

Some of the most beautiful and intricatly graceful movements of kata can only be unleashed by a woman, while absolute brute strength is still a man's realm. While I have never told a woman that she spars or does kata like a woman, I have told a few guys that they fight like a girl.

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Allen, now at his new website www.ury2k.com/pulse/index.htm

Lori · Post by **Lori** » Mon Jan 10, 2000 2:16 am

Tony-san,

Excellent comment which sums up this thread very well!

As we've discussed on this forum before (I wish I could call up the old forum and paste a few of the posts here - I hope Harry gets things organized someday!) gender can NOT be denied in martial arts study - it will manifest some differences more dramatically than others - but the fact remains that we are not a group of hermaphrodites and cannot be treated as such. Each gender has strengths and weaknesses that need to be acknowledged, studied, and used to advantage - much the same as one would use height or weight the same way. I often stress in the classes I teach that MA is all about exploiting the opponent's weaknesses - and protecting against them doing the same to you! These weakneses may arise out of gender, or a myriad other aspects that make us individuals! A female can drop her arm while she is kicking just as much as a male can - but by the same token - a women has more to protect in the chest area than a man does! Sure - a groin shot will hurt a female - maybe seriously - but the vulnerability is NOT the same - (unless you are Bruised Lee-san!)

Now - as to the comments and how we feel about them - this is a great follow up to the thread Cecil started about male ego when a woman stepped in - how about the female ego when getting those comments?

I find the feedback fascinating! I've gotten many types comments through the years - from both men and women - and I believe that the inner reaction will have a lot to do with the environment of the female's dojo.

I wish we could get some feedback from some of the more senior female karateka who dealt with even tougher times for a woman to be in karate - especially in Okinawa - and even more so for an American woman from what I understand!

Peace,
Lori

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Peace,
Lori
email: <A HREF="mailto:lori_san@hotmail.com">lori_san@hotmail.com</A>
Forum Recommended/Reviewed Books
website: www.mindspring.com/~uechi-ryu

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited January 09, 2000).]

Gilbert MacIntyre · Post by **Gilbert MacIntyre** » Mon Jan 10, 2000 2:29 am

I teach a Uechi class at my daughters junior high school, for females only. I set it up this way so the girls would have the chance to learn something without being bullied out of the Dojo. Once they reach a certain level they can join us at our formal Dojo, or not, their choice. I state this to show I believe the sexes are different and guys sometime dominate because of their aggression. If we can get females over the first few months they will feel as at home as any student, and will develope in direct relation to the effort they put in.
I don't believe in using gender specific language if at all possible. I do believe in making the dojo as open to females as possible.
All this said, be careful what you wish for... I have seen the look of shock enter the eyes of some females when I test them with the intensity that their level should be able to withstand.
By the way my two daughters are being raised to think of themselves as great people, no gender stipulation.

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Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it. proverbs 22:6

student · Post by **student** » Mon Jan 10, 2000 1:01 pm

Nice thread...for Uechi....

Ducking, weaving &

,
student

Shelly King · Post by **Shelly King** » Mon Jan 10, 2000 6:59 pm

Gilbert

Could you clarify your statement on the look of shock on some of your female students' faces. Do you mean they seem surprised by the hit they can take or just the hit?

Lori
You bring up female ego. So what about yours? I don't know about mine yet. I don't like to lose but I do frquently and honestly it hasn't really bothered me yet. The only time losing bothers me is if I just didn't perform upto my standards. It doesn't seem to depend on my opponent.

Anthony
If you are sparring someone for the first time, how do you size them up...wouldn't size and gender be the basis for your initial attack?

Allen
Thank you for the honestly...glad to know hitting a woman is no longer a problem

.

Jackie
Ouch! Not to sound vengeful, but I hope you made them pay for that one.

Ok, so this thread is getting rather long. Lori would you be kind enough to close it and perhaps follow through on the ego thread.

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Shelly

Jake Steinmann · Post by **Jake Steinmann** » Mon Jan 10, 2000 7:34 pm

Like Allen, I had a humbling experience in underestimating a woman...specifically, my Simo (Sifu's wife). She is all of 4'10", and I can probably lift her with one hand, which to my mind, mistakenly translated to me thinking I could dominate the sparring session.

A couple of finger jabs in your throat destroy your ego and chauvanism very quickly.

Since that day, I've had the pleasure to train with, spar with and meet a great number of female martial artists. And I've never again underestimated someone based on their gender. (other things, sure, but hey..no one's perfect)

Train Harder! More Chi!
Jake

Gilbert MacIntyre · Post by **Gilbert MacIntyre** » Tue Jan 11, 2000 2:36 am

[Shelly
I may be misleading when I say "shocked". There is a look of refocusing on the face. A look of a reborn seriousness that has led me to believe they were not expecting to be hit that hard.
I should point out at this time that I hit firm at first to prepare them so as not to hurt someone note expecting a harder test.
Then I hit to what I think they should be able to expect. I should also point out that I am not saying the females can't take it, it just appears they don't expect to have to take it.

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Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it. proverbs 22:6

lori macleod-doyle · Post by **lori macleod-doyle** » Tue Jan 11, 2000 3:49 am

Gilbert,

I had the opportunity to experience your testing style. You took my through my sanchin test at my black belt grading last November.
It was,I thought,a very thorough and strong test.(I had the bruises to prove it

)
We had never met before and I knew nothing of your ways.You seemed to be able to size me up and gave me a good test. I felt that I had been tested both physically and mentally.It did not seem to me that you held back because I am female. You seemed to test me for my rank and ability and for that I say thank-you.It seemed to set the tone for the rest of my test. I felt like I earned my belt that day.
I certainly hope I did not have that shocked expression you spoke of

.
Thank you again for making my test one I'll remember proudly!
Lori M-D

PS please say hello to Bernie Francis for me.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Tue Jan 11, 2000 2:27 pm

Hi Lori MD,

You are on target with your comments on Gilbert-san! He has a unique "testing style"
that was very impressive at the promotional which I attended! He was very intense but with moderation! A rare combination!

Regards,

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Van Canna

Shelly King · Post by **Shelly King** » Tue Jan 11, 2000 7:54 pm

Gilbert
I hope you did not take offense at my question, it was not meant to question your testing method but more the response of your students. I know for me, that when I started studying Uechi, the sanchin testing was increased so gradually that I really never noticed how much the strength of the hits had increased until my first test. During that test, I truely experienced the benefit of what sanchin can do and for the first time I was actually shocked at the hits I was able to take at the time. Though like LoriMD, I hope my face didn't give me away. A strongly tested and performed sanchin is probably the most rewarding experience I currently receive from Uechi [kumite being a close second

]. There's something empowering about knowing how hard of a hit you can really take, at least IMHO.

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Shelly

Gilbert MacIntyre · Post by **Gilbert MacIntyre** » Wed Jan 12, 2000 2:40 am

It did not seem to me that you held back because I am female. You seemed to test me for my rank and ability and for that I say thank-you.It seemed to set the tone for the rest of my test. I felt like I earned my belt

lori:
I saw your post previous to mine, believe me if I felt you were shocked during your test I wouldn't have entered the debate.
However you help to validate me in that I do size up a student before striking, gender is not part of the evaluation.
I respect someone who sweats when they work and puts everything they have into their training. There are women in our dojo who strike quite a bit harder than some of the guys. No one would dare to say they are pretty good for a woman, because they work as hard as anyone in the dojo, myself included.
However I have seen over the years females who expect "special" treatment because of their sex, I sorry to say this hurts more than just them.
I'll tell Bernie you said hi. Once again, nice test.

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Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it. proverbs 22:6