Kristy,
May I suggest a web-site that offers womens self defense videos.
http://sites.netscape.net/speedrockk/homepage
You will soon see that muscle/strength, size, gender, Ect. Ect. are not factors when it comes to "real-world" self-defense.
I think Mrs. Keating's videos are the best on the market for women. No nonsense, simple techniques designed/taught by a woman for women.
Enjoy the web-site. Or call 1-800-625-8183 for more info.
Sincerely,
Robert Langford
muscle to muscle
Moderator: Available
muscle to muscle
I vote with Steinmann-Sifu and Panther on the relevance of strength. Unlike height and reach after you're an adult, it is not a constant; it can be a variable.
Sure, I'll never be Arnold or Steve Reeves or Poul Anderson - but I can still work on my own upper body strength so that my strikes have some authority.
Recognize your vulnerabilities. Compensate for them. Play to your strengths - which may be something other than upper body strength.
As one of the vertically short-changed crowd, I must depend on mobility, cancelling out the bigger badder guy's advantages and leverage by being in very close and using a barrage of strikes, elbows, knees, low kicks, joint breaks if possible. "One punch, one kill" is a great goal and a sound reminder that any well-executed technique could be lethal, but don't count on the one super-duper-invincible-can't-be-defeated technique when your own skin is on the line. Women and small men should not expect to solve it all without a continuous barrage of offensive strikes.
Just remember that wolverines and honey badgers come in small packages, too....
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited June 15, 2000).]
Sure, I'll never be Arnold or Steve Reeves or Poul Anderson - but I can still work on my own upper body strength so that my strikes have some authority.
Recognize your vulnerabilities. Compensate for them. Play to your strengths - which may be something other than upper body strength.
As one of the vertically short-changed crowd, I must depend on mobility, cancelling out the bigger badder guy's advantages and leverage by being in very close and using a barrage of strikes, elbows, knees, low kicks, joint breaks if possible. "One punch, one kill" is a great goal and a sound reminder that any well-executed technique could be lethal, but don't count on the one super-duper-invincible-can't-be-defeated technique when your own skin is on the line. Women and small men should not expect to solve it all without a continuous barrage of offensive strikes.
Just remember that wolverines and honey badgers come in small packages, too....
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited June 15, 2000).]
-
Jake Steinmann
- Posts: 1184
- Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Newton, MA
- Contact:
muscle to muscle
Tony-san,
I never suggested that you can't defend against a stronger person. And I certainly did not suggest that you turn into a cowering maggot. That was the point of the tail end of my post.
What I did suggest is that size and strength are factors that you must take into account. You learned to set a trap for the bear. Why? Because if you just charged the bear with a knife, the bear is likely to knock your head off. Hence, you use the trap.
I'm not saying you can't circumvent size and strength. You can. But to say it's totally irrelevant is false. If it was TOTALLY irrelevant, you'd just charge the bear.
Will, Wit, and Conviction? Absolutely. Use 'em. But part of using them means knowing how and when to fight.
A couple of months ago, I had the dubious pleasure of grappling with a man who was quite literally capable of picking me up and tucking me under one arm. That's a hell of an advantage!
Now..I tapped him out, mostly due to greater experience and some nasty tricks in my bag. But I beat him.
Size and strength can most definitely be overcome...but they should not be ignored.
Jake
------------------
Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
I never suggested that you can't defend against a stronger person. And I certainly did not suggest that you turn into a cowering maggot. That was the point of the tail end of my post.
What I did suggest is that size and strength are factors that you must take into account. You learned to set a trap for the bear. Why? Because if you just charged the bear with a knife, the bear is likely to knock your head off. Hence, you use the trap.
I'm not saying you can't circumvent size and strength. You can. But to say it's totally irrelevant is false. If it was TOTALLY irrelevant, you'd just charge the bear.
Will, Wit, and Conviction? Absolutely. Use 'em. But part of using them means knowing how and when to fight.
A couple of months ago, I had the dubious pleasure of grappling with a man who was quite literally capable of picking me up and tucking me under one arm. That's a hell of an advantage!
Now..I tapped him out, mostly due to greater experience and some nasty tricks in my bag. But I beat him.
Size and strength can most definitely be overcome...but they should not be ignored.
Jake
------------------
Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
-
Tony-San
muscle to muscle
Jake,
the trap is a metephor for ingenuity.
I agree, you should never underestimate someone larger and stronger than you because they could easily bash your skull in. By the same token, you should never underestimate someone smaller or more softer then you because they may have a toe kick that will tear your nuts off!
I guess the moral of the story is, don't underestimate anyone. This leads us back to square one and my point.... physical strength is irrelevant.
Tony
the trap is a metephor for ingenuity.
I agree, you should never underestimate someone larger and stronger than you because they could easily bash your skull in. By the same token, you should never underestimate someone smaller or more softer then you because they may have a toe kick that will tear your nuts off!
I guess the moral of the story is, don't underestimate anyone. This leads us back to square one and my point.... physical strength is irrelevant.
Tony
muscle to muscle
Enjoyed all the comments on this thread!
Robert,
I am really doing fine in my martial arts training. But of course, I will check that website out.
I just wanted to bring up the point that many women may have a false sense of security when they train in schools that teach techniques that could quite possibly turn an attack into an even more violent attack.
It's never happened to me(for obvious reasons) but maybe the guys could help me out on this one. For instance, the kick to the groin attack. Have any of you guys been kicked in the groin? Probably all of you. Did you catch your breath and say yeah, that hurt and then was really angry? Yes, I think it could would work against your every day creep, but I'm not so sure about a very dangerous rapist or criminal.
And I promise I'm not trying to be arrogant or anything. This is just my ideas on things.
Kristy
Robert,
I am really doing fine in my martial arts training. But of course, I will check that website out.
I just wanted to bring up the point that many women may have a false sense of security when they train in schools that teach techniques that could quite possibly turn an attack into an even more violent attack.
It's never happened to me(for obvious reasons) but maybe the guys could help me out on this one. For instance, the kick to the groin attack. Have any of you guys been kicked in the groin? Probably all of you. Did you catch your breath and say yeah, that hurt and then was really angry? Yes, I think it could would work against your every day creep, but I'm not so sure about a very dangerous rapist or criminal.
And I promise I'm not trying to be arrogant or anything. This is just my ideas on things.
Kristy
muscle to muscle
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tony-San:
Physical strength is irrelivent in my opinion. As Karateka, our power should be in a refined technique. The source of power in a refined technique is common to everyone so everyone (and everything for that matter) posseses the same potential as everyone else.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ummmm... yes and no... Physical strength is quite relevant, if that is where your strength lies! This is the whole point of my rule #1. Women and men have different strengths, just as different body-types have different strengths, just as someone who has a handicap or and injury has to accentuate their strengths. A very strong man may very well accentuate physical strength, while a very flexible woman would use that advantage... A person shorter than their attacker should be able to see the advantage of that situation and a person taller than their attacker should understand how to use that to their advantage. Technique, shmechnique... That's great for the dojo and certainly is the basis of each of our arts and training, but realistically when the proof hits the pavement, good luck on finding any visible technique from the dojo! Those techniques and (especially) kata are to teach us body mechanics... Those killer workouts are to teach us perserverence and that we have the will & spirit inside us to survive! No, people do not have the same potential... otherwise we would all be called "Master". Don't misunderstand... I have seen (and would put hard cash down on) a woman "white-belt" who kicked the crap out of a "some-number-of-stripes-dan"! All it took was for her to see and understand his weaknesses... and to then take advantage of them. Same thing goes 100X on the street!
Mary-S,
Once when a guy was working out in a group that my wife was teaching, he said, "you punch pretty good, for a girl." Later after he had tried to blind-side her, she dropped him (the group was learning ju-jitsu), wrapped him up in a ball and said, "you don't break-fall to well... for a guy."
Physical strength is irrelivent in my opinion. As Karateka, our power should be in a refined technique. The source of power in a refined technique is common to everyone so everyone (and everything for that matter) posseses the same potential as everyone else.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ummmm... yes and no... Physical strength is quite relevant, if that is where your strength lies! This is the whole point of my rule #1. Women and men have different strengths, just as different body-types have different strengths, just as someone who has a handicap or and injury has to accentuate their strengths. A very strong man may very well accentuate physical strength, while a very flexible woman would use that advantage... A person shorter than their attacker should be able to see the advantage of that situation and a person taller than their attacker should understand how to use that to their advantage. Technique, shmechnique... That's great for the dojo and certainly is the basis of each of our arts and training, but realistically when the proof hits the pavement, good luck on finding any visible technique from the dojo! Those techniques and (especially) kata are to teach us body mechanics... Those killer workouts are to teach us perserverence and that we have the will & spirit inside us to survive! No, people do not have the same potential... otherwise we would all be called "Master". Don't misunderstand... I have seen (and would put hard cash down on) a woman "white-belt" who kicked the crap out of a "some-number-of-stripes-dan"! All it took was for her to see and understand his weaknesses... and to then take advantage of them. Same thing goes 100X on the street!
Mary-S,
Once when a guy was working out in a group that my wife was teaching, he said, "you punch pretty good, for a girl." Later after he had tried to blind-side her, she dropped him (the group was learning ju-jitsu), wrapped him up in a ball and said, "you don't break-fall to well... for a guy."
-
Jake Steinmann
- Posts: 1184
- Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Newton, MA
- Contact:
muscle to muscle
"Physical strength is irrelivent in my opinion. "
DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER!
Physical strength is relevant. Simple as that. In a fight between two otherwise totally equal fighters, the stronger one has a distinct advantage. Why else would boxers, wrestlers, mixed-martial arts fighters, judoka, and even traditional karate and kung fu programs include strength training as part of their workout.
I make this point because I've seen it lead to some horribly dangerous delusions on the part of some of my training partners. I've had the fortune to train with some truly gigantic people in the past, and let me tell you...size and strength matter!
Can physical strength be circumvented/overcome? Absolutely. You can't develop muscles over your eyeballs, and a choke is a choke...regardless of how strong you are.
Panther-san makes some excellent points/rules.
Coach Blauer often advises us to "not let the math beat you." Don't take things to literally. Just because a person is physically capable of bench pressing more than you does not mean that you can't beat them.
"The size of the dog in the fight matters little when compared to the size of the fight in the dog" - T. Rosevelt (HAH! You thought it was going to say T. Blauer, didn't you?)
Jake
------------------
Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER!
Physical strength is relevant. Simple as that. In a fight between two otherwise totally equal fighters, the stronger one has a distinct advantage. Why else would boxers, wrestlers, mixed-martial arts fighters, judoka, and even traditional karate and kung fu programs include strength training as part of their workout.
I make this point because I've seen it lead to some horribly dangerous delusions on the part of some of my training partners. I've had the fortune to train with some truly gigantic people in the past, and let me tell you...size and strength matter!
Can physical strength be circumvented/overcome? Absolutely. You can't develop muscles over your eyeballs, and a choke is a choke...regardless of how strong you are.
Panther-san makes some excellent points/rules.
Coach Blauer often advises us to "not let the math beat you." Don't take things to literally. Just because a person is physically capable of bench pressing more than you does not mean that you can't beat them.
"The size of the dog in the fight matters little when compared to the size of the fight in the dog" - T. Rosevelt (HAH! You thought it was going to say T. Blauer, didn't you?)
Jake
------------------
Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
muscle to muscle
Kristy,
>>I just wanted to bring up the point that many women may have a false sense of security when they train in schools that teach techniques that could quite possibly turn an attack into an even more violent attack. <<
Something is off. The counter (or premptive) attack is to end the attack. To engage is to already acknowledge the need for a "violent" response. Once a violent response is taken, the violence doesn't stop until the attack is stopped.
>>It's never happened to me(for obvious reasons) but maybe the guys could help me out on this one. For instance, the kick to the groin attack. Have any of you guys been kicked in the groin? Probably all of you. Did you catch your breath and say yeah, that hurt and then was really angry? Yes, I think it could would work against your every day creep, but I'm not so sure about a very dangerous rapist or criminal.<<
In the dojo, you stop after an inadvertant or overly zealous groin kick. There is time to "think" about it. If you kick someone in the groin in the street, then you have engaged in a violent response because it (hopefully) was warranted. Then as the above, you don't stop until the other person's stopped. You keep hitting with your kyusho, keys, stick, brick, blade, whatever, until the other is STOPPED. I don't care what he is thinking... just that he stop thinking as soon as possible, or he is thinking on his back.
david
>>I just wanted to bring up the point that many women may have a false sense of security when they train in schools that teach techniques that could quite possibly turn an attack into an even more violent attack. <<
Something is off. The counter (or premptive) attack is to end the attack. To engage is to already acknowledge the need for a "violent" response. Once a violent response is taken, the violence doesn't stop until the attack is stopped.
>>It's never happened to me(for obvious reasons) but maybe the guys could help me out on this one. For instance, the kick to the groin attack. Have any of you guys been kicked in the groin? Probably all of you. Did you catch your breath and say yeah, that hurt and then was really angry? Yes, I think it could would work against your every day creep, but I'm not so sure about a very dangerous rapist or criminal.<<
In the dojo, you stop after an inadvertant or overly zealous groin kick. There is time to "think" about it. If you kick someone in the groin in the street, then you have engaged in a violent response because it (hopefully) was warranted. Then as the above, you don't stop until the other person's stopped. You keep hitting with your kyusho, keys, stick, brick, blade, whatever, until the other is STOPPED. I don't care what he is thinking... just that he stop thinking as soon as possible, or he is thinking on his back.
david
muscle to muscle
Prone, supine, on his side, fetal position, whatever; I endorse what David just stated.
Presuming that the situation warrants your kicking some man in the groin (I post like a lawyer because I am one, Kristi.) then it warrants sufficient force until you reasonably believe his attack has ended or been countered. While you are not allowed by law to deliver additional punishment just because you want to, you certainly do not have to compromise your safety and shouldn't!
David and I are using different phrases but stating the same thing; if you must use force, use it continuously until you can safely escape. Safely implies that your assailant is not in a position to catch you easily.
And yes, being kicked in the groin hurts
- I never go out on the dojang/dojo/kwoon floor without an athletic supporter and cup 
(my sparring partners' ability to pull their punches/kicks and/or my ability to block everything flawlessly do not have my full trust )- but I have survived the experience and have sired two sons since.
Sigh. More ("Watch where you're kicking!
"Oh.
"You were watching....
"Oh.") training....
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited June 16, 2000).]
Presuming that the situation warrants your kicking some man in the groin (I post like a lawyer because I am one, Kristi.) then it warrants sufficient force until you reasonably believe his attack has ended or been countered. While you are not allowed by law to deliver additional punishment just because you want to, you certainly do not have to compromise your safety and shouldn't!
David and I are using different phrases but stating the same thing; if you must use force, use it continuously until you can safely escape. Safely implies that your assailant is not in a position to catch you easily.
And yes, being kicked in the groin hurts
- I never go out on the dojang/dojo/kwoon floor without an athletic supporter and cup (my sparring partners' ability to pull their punches/kicks and/or my ability to block everything flawlessly do not have my full trust )- but I have survived the experience and have sired two sons since. Sigh. More ("Watch where you're kicking!
"Oh.
"You were watching....
"Oh.") training....
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited June 16, 2000).]
muscle to muscle
Apologies in advance for the lengthy reply...
Tony-san,
Fine... "Physical strength is irrelevent"... You've already pointed out that you wouldn't go toe-to-toe with a physically stronger opponent and Steinmann-san has shown where your assertion doesn't hold up. However, you are correct that physical strength is irrelevent, when it can be counterbalanced by other "strengths" or attributes.
And that is the lesson of rule #1!
Good posts/points from everyone. Very interesting thread. The topic has been near and dear to me for over 20 years. But, I'd like to get back to some things Kristy asks...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>posted by Kristy:
I just wanted to bring up the point that many women may have a false sense of security when they train in schools that teach techniques that could quite possibly turn an attack into an even more violent attack.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This gets to the fundamental reason of my passion on this topic for 20+ years. Besides the fact that I grew-up in the country with 3 sisters and no brothers (couldn't even get a tom-cat to stick around ), I was enlightened to the problems Kristy is asking about in a dojo one night...
An ikkyu woman in the dojo had been brutally assaulted. When the attack began, she did a beautiful flurry of techniques just like in the dojo, ending in (what is commonly called) a "round-house" kick to her attacker's head... which (just as in the dojo) she pulled at the last second. That in and of itself was bad enough in my eyes, but what galvanized me into my beliefs on this issue was the fact that this woman was told she had failed the dojo! Not just by one person, but by most of the dan ranks both men AND women! Including the head instructor! It was even questioned whether she was really ready for the upcoming dan test that she was scheduled for! Sheesh! I stepped in and disagreed... I maintained (and will 'til the day I die) that she didn't fail her art, her art failed her. This immediately caused problems with my fellow yudansha which lasted over the next two weeks... whereupon I took off my belt, handed it to the chief instructor and left. Not the martial arts, but that dojo and style... (There really isn't anything wrong with the style, except that was the only dojo teaching that style in the area... and they had some definite attitudinal problems. IMNSHO)
Personally, I got really tired of people teaching "Women's self-defense" courses that I know/knew were going to get someone hurt or killed someday. Even though there have been some fairly decent attempts (such as "Model Mugging"), I've seen too much crap and bravo sierra (even from model mugging classes). Many women do get a false sense of security from training, whether it's a "Model Mugging" class, (Mc)karah-tee class, or taking some classes from a woman black-belt "expert" at some community center! (Puh-leeze, do not take that out of context... I firmly believe that many, many women are getting very excellent self-defense and MA training from some very excellent dojos and even in the back yard of some excellent sensei's. It's just that there is a very grey line that has been intentionally drawn by some between the good and the not-so-good.)
So, you'll forgive my ranting and understand why this is such a passionate subject for me... I guess that also explains what I teach women (when I teach these days) and why... and why I was lucky enough to get that "thank you" phone call one night.
Now to respond a little more directly to Kristy's excellent point/observation/question:
The short answer is given by my rules #4-7.
The long answer really can't be given in text in a forum such as this. It would require some dojo time. Otherwise, it would cause too much misunderstanding... I also would/will never teach some things to any man... they're my own little "for-women-only" thoughts gleaned from years with a wife martial artist, three sisters, a few sister-in-laws and hardly a man to be found... as well as a number of real world(tm) encounters by myself and/or some of those women. But, I will say that it is important for everyone to work-out on a heavy bag, focus mitts, or something where they can execute full-power, full-force, full-speed techniques. We've used a number of tricks to accomplish this. Fact is that if you train to pull your techniques, when the time comes, you will pull your techniques. Again, don't take that wrong... training for control is great... encouraged... necessary... But learning how to execute against a real target is just as important.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Ultimately, we all have the same goals at the end of the day. We want to live in peace, have a nice life, and make it home to be with our loved ones. When some "societally challenged" individual trys to change any part of that, it must be dealt with. I like to think of it as "instant karma". The nurturing aspects that many/most women have can sometimes interfere with the ability to maintain those goals in the face of a violent attacker. If you ever watch a movie where the woman screams and cries and rolls-up into a whimpering ball, while some macho-man hero "saves the day"... and you think for one second that it's reality based... you need to train differently! My wife/sisters/etc either get mad at the stereotype OR they laugh at the stupidity, 'cause that just is not reality for any of them!
in budo...
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited June 16, 2000).]
Tony-san,
Fine... "Physical strength is irrelevent"... You've already pointed out that you wouldn't go toe-to-toe with a physically stronger opponent and Steinmann-san has shown where your assertion doesn't hold up. However, you are correct that physical strength is irrelevent, when it can be counterbalanced by other "strengths" or attributes.
And that is the lesson of rule #1!
Good posts/points from everyone. Very interesting thread. The topic has been near and dear to me for over 20 years. But, I'd like to get back to some things Kristy asks...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>posted by Kristy:
I just wanted to bring up the point that many women may have a false sense of security when they train in schools that teach techniques that could quite possibly turn an attack into an even more violent attack.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This gets to the fundamental reason of my passion on this topic for 20+ years. Besides the fact that I grew-up in the country with 3 sisters and no brothers (couldn't even get a tom-cat to stick around
), I was enlightened to the problems Kristy is asking about in a dojo one night... An ikkyu woman in the dojo had been brutally assaulted. When the attack began, she did a beautiful flurry of techniques just like in the dojo, ending in (what is commonly called) a "round-house" kick to her attacker's head... which (just as in the dojo) she pulled at the last second. That in and of itself was bad enough in my eyes, but what galvanized me into my beliefs on this issue was the fact that this woman was told she had failed the dojo! Not just by one person, but by most of the dan ranks both men AND women! Including the head instructor! It was even questioned whether she was really ready for the upcoming dan test that she was scheduled for! Sheesh! I stepped in and disagreed... I maintained (and will 'til the day I die) that she didn't fail her art, her art failed her. This immediately caused problems with my fellow yudansha which lasted over the next two weeks... whereupon I took off my belt, handed it to the chief instructor and left. Not the martial arts, but that dojo and style... (There really isn't anything wrong with the style, except that was the only dojo teaching that style in the area... and they had some definite attitudinal problems. IMNSHO)
Personally, I got really tired of people teaching "Women's self-defense" courses that I know/knew were going to get someone hurt or killed someday. Even though there have been some fairly decent attempts (such as "Model Mugging"), I've seen too much crap and bravo sierra (even from model mugging classes). Many women do get a false sense of security from training, whether it's a "Model Mugging" class, (Mc)karah-tee class, or taking some classes from a woman black-belt "expert" at some community center! (Puh-leeze, do not take that out of context... I firmly believe that many, many women are getting very excellent self-defense and MA training from some very excellent dojos and even in the back yard of some excellent sensei's. It's just that there is a very grey line that has been intentionally drawn by some between the good and the not-so-good.)
So, you'll forgive my ranting
and understand why this is such a passionate subject for me... I guess that also explains what I teach women (when I teach these days) and why... and why I was lucky enough to get that "thank you" phone call one night. Now to respond a little more directly to Kristy's excellent point/observation/question:
The short answer is given by my rules #4-7.
The long answer really can't be given in text in a forum such as this. It would require some dojo time. Otherwise, it would cause too much misunderstanding... I also would/will never teach some things to any man... they're my own little "for-women-only" thoughts gleaned from years with a wife martial artist, three sisters, a few sister-in-laws and hardly a man to be found... as well as a number of real world(tm) encounters by myself and/or some of those women.
But, I will say that it is important for everyone to work-out on a heavy bag, focus mitts, or something where they can execute full-power, full-force, full-speed techniques. We've used a number of tricks to accomplish this. Fact is that if you train to pull your techniques, when the time comes, you will pull your techniques. Again, don't take that wrong... training for control is great... encouraged... necessary... But learning how to execute against a real target is just as important.<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Contrary to popular myth, the right strike to the right meridian point, when executed properly, is just as devastating to either a man or a woman. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise... Some folks handle certain strikes better than other folks. It has nothing to do with gender. It's also one of the reasons that no one should count on the "one hit fight". Keep attacking! Be like a vicious mother cat who's got someone threatening her cubs! Don't stop until that threat is completely neutralized! Be tenacious!It's never happened to me(for obvious reasons) but maybe the guys could help me out on this one. For instance, the kick to the groin attack. Have any of you guys been kicked in the groin?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
This is something that every woman should realize... When attacked, do not piss-off your attacker, take them out! And fercryinoutloud, do not stop and think of the bastard's well-being! He was out to hurt you... bad! He certainly wasn't thinking of your well-being!Yes, I think it could would work against your every day creep, but I'm not so sure about a very dangerous rapist or criminal.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
You don't seem arrogant or anything. These are legitimate questions/observations/concerns/thought/ideas that seem to fail to get a good answer. IMNSHO...And I promise I'm not trying to be arrogant or anything. This is just my ideas on things.
Ultimately, we all have the same goals at the end of the day. We want to live in peace, have a nice life, and make it home to be with our loved ones. When some "societally challenged" individual trys to change any part of that, it must be dealt with. I like to think of it as "instant karma".
The nurturing aspects that many/most women have can sometimes interfere with the ability to maintain those goals in the face of a violent attacker. If you ever watch a movie where the woman screams and cries and rolls-up into a whimpering ball, while some macho-man hero "saves the day"... and you think for one second that it's reality based... you need to train differently! My wife/sisters/etc either get mad at the stereotype OR they laugh at the stupidity, 'cause that just is not reality for any of them! in budo...
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited June 16, 2000).]
-
Jake Steinmann
- Posts: 1184
- Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Newton, MA
- Contact:
muscle to muscle
Tony,
I understand the trap metaphor, and I agree with it.
I may be harping on what is essentially a semantics issue, and I apologize for that: But, at the same time, I believe in the power of words, so I'm going to harp on it one more time.
"Physical Strength is Irrelevant"
Again: No, it isn't. When you say that something is irrelevant, it means that it is in no way connected or related to the subject at hand.
Example: If we were having a discussion on stratgey in the Pelopennisan war (Sorry...reading Tides of War right now), would you be likely to interject a quantum physics equation? No...because quantum physics essentially has nothing to do with the Pelopennisan war (except perhaps, in the abstract).
The gross physical strength of an attacker is relevant. It will influence your strategy.
Example: When I grappled with my student, Baraka (who is quite literally capable of picking me up and tucking me under his arm), I could not use the same strategy that I would use against someone closer to my own size and strength. Why? Because there are simply some movements/tactics/techniques that I can't make work against someone who is that much stronger than me.
Now, should you underestimate someone because they are smaller than you? No, of course not. My father often warned me that the most dangerous person is the small psycho who has no qualms about stabbing you. If the person seems to be at a physical disadvantage and wants to start something with you, there's probably a reason why he thinks he can beat you.
Many times, I see/hear martial artists toss around phrases like "Strength is irrelevant" without really analyzing them. I've done it. I even tossed that one around. Until I ran into people who were so big and so strong that it did matter.
Why not, instead say "Physical strength can be overcome by application of good tactics and strategy"?
Again, it may be a semantics issue, but I believe it's an important one. Ultimately, I think we're in agreement...but the phrasing of things is leading to misunderstanding.
"Have any of you guys been kicked in the groin? Probably all of you. Did you catch your breath and say yeah, that hurt and then was really angry? Yes, I think it could would work against your every day creep, but I'm not so sure about a very dangerous rapist or criminal. "
I've been kicked in the groin and shaken it off. Of course, I've also been kicked in the groin and had it drop me.
Against a really motivated attacker, one kick to the groin probably won't be enough. But that's ok. One ANYTHING probably won't be enough.
"Keep attacking! Be like a vicious mother cat who's got someone threatening her cubs! Don't stop until that threat is completely neutralized! Be tenacious!"
Err..yeah. What Panther said. And then some.
If you want a really graphic mental picture, think of the creature from Alien...without the telegraphic hiss.
Or, as my Sifu would often say:
"Knock him the f**k out!"
Panther, David, Student and Tony all make excellent points. I will not bother with my reiterations of the same thing.
Strength and Honor
Jake
------------------
Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
I understand the trap metaphor, and I agree with it.
I may be harping on what is essentially a semantics issue, and I apologize for that: But, at the same time, I believe in the power of words, so I'm going to harp on it one more time.
"Physical Strength is Irrelevant"
Again: No, it isn't. When you say that something is irrelevant, it means that it is in no way connected or related to the subject at hand.
Example: If we were having a discussion on stratgey in the Pelopennisan war (Sorry...reading Tides of War right now), would you be likely to interject a quantum physics equation? No...because quantum physics essentially has nothing to do with the Pelopennisan war (except perhaps, in the abstract).
The gross physical strength of an attacker is relevant. It will influence your strategy.
Example: When I grappled with my student, Baraka (who is quite literally capable of picking me up and tucking me under his arm), I could not use the same strategy that I would use against someone closer to my own size and strength. Why? Because there are simply some movements/tactics/techniques that I can't make work against someone who is that much stronger than me.
Now, should you underestimate someone because they are smaller than you? No, of course not. My father often warned me that the most dangerous person is the small psycho who has no qualms about stabbing you. If the person seems to be at a physical disadvantage and wants to start something with you, there's probably a reason why he thinks he can beat you.
Many times, I see/hear martial artists toss around phrases like "Strength is irrelevant" without really analyzing them. I've done it. I even tossed that one around. Until I ran into people who were so big and so strong that it did matter.
Why not, instead say "Physical strength can be overcome by application of good tactics and strategy"?
Again, it may be a semantics issue, but I believe it's an important one. Ultimately, I think we're in agreement...but the phrasing of things is leading to misunderstanding.
"Have any of you guys been kicked in the groin? Probably all of you. Did you catch your breath and say yeah, that hurt and then was really angry? Yes, I think it could would work against your every day creep, but I'm not so sure about a very dangerous rapist or criminal. "
I've been kicked in the groin and shaken it off. Of course, I've also been kicked in the groin and had it drop me.
Against a really motivated attacker, one kick to the groin probably won't be enough. But that's ok. One ANYTHING probably won't be enough.
"Keep attacking! Be like a vicious mother cat who's got someone threatening her cubs! Don't stop until that threat is completely neutralized! Be tenacious!"
Err..yeah. What Panther said. And then some.
If you want a really graphic mental picture, think of the creature from Alien...without the telegraphic hiss.
Or, as my Sifu would often say:
"Knock him the f**k out!"
Panther, David, Student and Tony all make excellent points. I will not bother with my reiterations of the same thing.
Strength and Honor
Jake
------------------
Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
muscle to muscle
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tony-San:
Ok...I got it!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gooooood!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Absolutely none of those rules are based in any way on parlor tricks like the "finger that points to the moon"! Each one can be discussed in depth, each one has a reason for being there, each one was put on the list because of something real that made it get put on the list, and finally each one has been proven true in real world(tm) encounters by myself and some women budo-kas... they are not parlor tricks... they are the truth, plain and simple.
Ok...I got it!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gooooood!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Ut-oh...I'll just say this...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Noone mentioned emphasizing any extreme! The key to everything is balance and focus... No matter what you're strengths or weaknesses, one should train with balance and focus... IMHO...Emphasis of one extreme breeds neglegence of the other.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Oops... you had it right up until then...So don't focus on physical strength. It's like the Finger that points to the moon thing...
Absolutely none of those rules are based in any way on parlor tricks like the "finger that points to the moon"! Each one can be discussed in depth, each one has a reason for being there, each one was put on the list because of something real that made it get put on the list, and finally each one has been proven true in real world(tm) encounters by myself and some women budo-kas... they are not parlor tricks... they are the truth, plain and simple.
muscle to muscle
Panther,
I had to comment before I read the other posts so not to forget what I wanted to say.
I think You are right on. I could not agree with you more.
The story you told about the woman being attacked, it sounds as though her art failed her as you said. And how low-life of the higher ranking belts to treat that woman that way especially after being assaulted like that! In truth, they probably felt like they themselves failed Her and then took on the "you failed the school" attitude to try and make themselves feel or look better. I think you did the right thing to defend her and eventually leave that school.
And what you stated about the groin kick. About the meridian and pressure points. I couldn't agree more. But many instructors do not know about that and teach the kick improperly.
And I agree with you that those fancy kicks to the head do not work on the street, only in the movies.
You sound like a very wise person, Panther.
I enjoy reading your comments.
Kristy
I had to comment before I read the other posts so not to forget what I wanted to say.
I think You are right on. I could not agree with you more.
The story you told about the woman being attacked, it sounds as though her art failed her as you said. And how low-life of the higher ranking belts to treat that woman that way especially after being assaulted like that! In truth, they probably felt like they themselves failed Her and then took on the "you failed the school" attitude to try and make themselves feel or look better. I think you did the right thing to defend her and eventually leave that school.
And what you stated about the groin kick. About the meridian and pressure points. I couldn't agree more. But many instructors do not know about that and teach the kick improperly.
And I agree with you that those fancy kicks to the head do not work on the street, only in the movies.
You sound like a very wise person, Panther.
I enjoy reading your comments.
Kristy
muscle to muscle
Yeah, I agree with you all you guys.
Strength is irrelevant when you know the secrets to the human body. Like those small in stature Okinawan masters. They could and can drop a bigger person with one touch. And if one trains in that manner, then size does not matter as all you have said.
But, I believe if you only train kicks to the head and techniques along that line, strength does matter and so does endurance because you better be able to run FAST.
Oh in response to the bag training, I do think that is good. And I also think it's good to get as much hands on experience with people of all gender and body types to get a feel of what does and does not work. Even with kyusho, all techniques do not work on all people. Some more vulnerable in some areas more than other areas.
Wow, this forum has been more active than the kyusho forum lately.
Panther
Do you have a webpage???
Kristy
Strength is irrelevant when you know the secrets to the human body. Like those small in stature Okinawan masters. They could and can drop a bigger person with one touch. And if one trains in that manner, then size does not matter as all you have said.
But, I believe if you only train kicks to the head and techniques along that line, strength does matter and so does endurance because you better be able to run FAST.
Oh in response to the bag training, I do think that is good. And I also think it's good to get as much hands on experience with people of all gender and body types to get a feel of what does and does not work. Even with kyusho, all techniques do not work on all people. Some more vulnerable in some areas more than other areas.
Wow, this forum has been more active than the kyusho forum lately.
Panther
Do you have a webpage???
Kristy
muscle to muscle
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kristy:
I think you did the right thing to defend her and eventually leave that school.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks... Obviously, it was the right thing for me to do. My only regret has always been that this woman never learned what I sought to learn from her "failure". (meaning my newly found, at the time, quest for the reasons why her art failed her as I believed) Now, I really don't think her art failed her as I did then, I feel that her sempais all failed her.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I really hope no one is teaching a groin kick to a woman for self-defense!
Not when there are much better targets that are much easier to get to with effective strikes and are much better at incapacitating an attacker!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote Thank you for the kind words. I doubt this old out-of-shape big cat could keep up with all the fine capable young yudanshas on these forums, but in my 20+ MA years I've learned some things.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Sorry... no web-page... If interested, I'll give a little history, but after doing web consulting on the side for a number of years (while unable to really train completely... looong story), I've toyed with the idea. If I create one, I'll post the URL. Right now, it's recuperation time along with "get back into shape so the young whippersnappers don't embarrass me" time.
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited June 16, 2000).]
I think you did the right thing to defend her and eventually leave that school.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks... Obviously, it was the right thing for me to do.
My only regret has always been that this woman never learned what I sought to learn from her "failure". (meaning my newly found, at the time, quest for the reasons why her art failed her as I believed) Now, I really don't think her art failed her as I did then, I feel that her sempais all failed her. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Kristy, ladies,But many instructors do not know about that and teach the kick improperly.
I really hope no one is teaching a groin kick to a woman for self-defense!
Not when there are much better targets that are much easier to get to with effective strikes and are much better at incapacitating an attacker! <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
IMNSHO... The only time a kick to the head is a valid technique on the street is after you've already dropped the attacker and your kick doesn't have to go any higher than your own knee!And I agree with you that those fancy kicks to the head do not work on the street, only in the movies.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Shucks...You sound like a very wise person, Panther.
Thank you for the kind words. I doubt this old out-of-shape big cat could keep up with all the fine capable young yudanshas on these forums, but in my 20+ MA years I've learned some things. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Just hope my perspective can help... If not, I can climb off the soapbox... now where did I put that step-ladder...I enjoy reading your comments.
Sorry... no web-page... If interested, I'll give a little history, but after doing web consulting on the side for a number of years (while unable to really train completely... looong story), I've toyed with the idea. If I create one, I'll post the URL. Right now, it's recuperation time along with "get back into shape so the young whippersnappers don't embarrass me" time.
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited June 16, 2000).]
