I'm not so idealistic to actually believe that if we get away from gender specific language we will gain equality between the sexes, however it does require some attention.
We are raised to hear things like "chair-man" or "human" or "manpower". Yes these terms may be fading, but there is a whole generation that still uses them.
What's more we use one term for addressing a man and two for a woMAN. Or maybe it's three for a feMALE. You know a man is MR. so-and-so, but a woman is Miss, or Mrs. or God forbid Ms.
There is an article, that I think everyone would find enlightening, that I read some years ago. My memory may be failing me, But I believe it was written by Douglas R. Holfstader, for a magazine called the American Scientist, or some thing like that.
This article used language that was specific alright, but race specific and not gender. It was an uneasy feeling that came over me as I read that a male Black should be called NISS so-and-so because he wanted everyone to know he was looking for a job...and Nrs. when he had a job because he was proud of the fact and wanted all to know. With this in mind can anyone believe that someone would want to refer to all black men as NS. , how would anyone know who was working and who wasn't.
Well the article went on for a length with much more examples of stupid ways of labeling people because of some bias the majority of society has. It's wrong and I think it leads to minimizing those in question.
Hope I haven't hurt anyone's feelings, and please try to find the article, it will serve to be very awakening.
Gilbert.
It's all in our language
Moderator: Available
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Gilbert MacIntyre
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- Location: Sydney, NS, Canada
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Gilbert MacIntyre
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2000 6:01 am
- Location: Sydney, NS, Canada
It's all in our language
An attitude easily taken...as a male. Would we be so quick to dismiss the arguement if we were on the other side of the fence?
Gilbert.
Gilbert.
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Gilbert MacIntyre
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2000 6:01 am
- Location: Sydney, NS, Canada
It's all in our language
Most respectfully JD, you say you don't write for a plurality and then do just that when you say women feel this way or that and they are they are insulted by this or that. I haven't stated that Women want this, it's just my opinion.
I simply believe that the lanuage could be made more gender neutral and the lanuage wouldn't suffer. If there is good reason for leaving a word or phrase the way it is OK. However if we don't want to change because we don't like change, that says alot.
Gilbert.
I simply believe that the lanuage could be made more gender neutral and the lanuage wouldn't suffer. If there is good reason for leaving a word or phrase the way it is OK. However if we don't want to change because we don't like change, that says alot.
Gilbert.
It's all in our language
I really am not interested in taking the word "woman" or anything of the likeness from the dictionary. I really have no problem being a woman and I actually admire men who are "gentlemen" and open doors and allow me to walk thru a door first.
And I think it is possible for men to treat women with respect like that stated above and still in certain situations treat them as equals. It's so hard to explain. I like that kind of treatment in every day life, but yet in the dojo it gets under my skin when I guy says, "did I hurt you" or something like that. I suppose we are as complicated as you men believe we are.
And I think it is possible for men to treat women with respect like that stated above and still in certain situations treat them as equals. It's so hard to explain. I like that kind of treatment in every day life, but yet in the dojo it gets under my skin when I guy says, "did I hurt you" or something like that. I suppose we are as complicated as you men believe we are.
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Jake Steinmann
- Posts: 1184
- Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Newton, MA
- Contact:
It's all in our language
Warning: You have stumbled onto one of my greatest pet peeves. A rant of currently undetermined length will now ensue.
Changing words does nothing. It is the intent behind the words that's important.
Remember, a number of years ago, when someone came up with the brilliant idea that the word "retarded" was deragatory? Instead, such people should be refered to as "special", because it would be less hurtful.
Guess what. Within a week, every high school kid in the country was using "special" as an insult. It's still used that way today, not infrequently.
You can play with language all you want, but much like physical violence, if someone wants to speak in a hurtful manner to you, they will find a way to do it. In fact, this is something of an art...just as finding innovative ways to physically hurt people is something of an art, at least to some.
If we want to rid ourselves of predjudice and discrimination, we aren't going to do it by coming up with new ways to say the same old thing.
or, to quote a character from Babylon Five
"If you cannot say what you mean, you can rarely mean what you say"
Food for thought. End of Rant...
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
Changing words does nothing. It is the intent behind the words that's important.
Remember, a number of years ago, when someone came up with the brilliant idea that the word "retarded" was deragatory? Instead, such people should be refered to as "special", because it would be less hurtful.
Guess what. Within a week, every high school kid in the country was using "special" as an insult. It's still used that way today, not infrequently.
You can play with language all you want, but much like physical violence, if someone wants to speak in a hurtful manner to you, they will find a way to do it. In fact, this is something of an art...just as finding innovative ways to physically hurt people is something of an art, at least to some.
If we want to rid ourselves of predjudice and discrimination, we aren't going to do it by coming up with new ways to say the same old thing.
or, to quote a character from Babylon Five
"If you cannot say what you mean, you can rarely mean what you say"
Food for thought. End of Rant...
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
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Jake Steinmann
- Posts: 1184
- Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Newton, MA
- Contact:
It's all in our language
"You do realize that "Babylon 5" is rapidly replacing the "new" Star Treks as the official "geek" test."
Umm..er...I only watched one episode...really...
Damn. My cover as a stealth geek blown again.
Oh well.
As for the rest of it: Well said. I will spare everyone on this forum a reiteration of the same points in my words.
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
Umm..er...I only watched one episode...really...
Damn. My cover as a stealth geek blown again.
Oh well.
As for the rest of it: Well said. I will spare everyone on this forum a reiteration of the same points in my words.
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
It's all in our language
Ummmm... What's up, Doc? 
Actually, the original spelling is correct. Douglas R. Hofstadter wrote Godel, Escher & Bach, a book that even us woefully ignorant people of Southern heritage have been capable of reading, understanding and enjoying. The comparisons of the same logical and artistic principles expressed in mathmatics, art, and music was entertaining and educational. The use of those principles to enrich one's own life is an harmonious revelation.
Given the penchant for denegration of non-cultured musical tastes, I'm rather surprised at the lack of enjoyment of the artistry of J.S. Bach's fugues. As one who has studied and written many fugues, the mathmatical precision which is surpassed by the artistic interpretation should be a joy to any music lover.
As a close black friend (whose race shouldn't matter, but is relevent here
) said, "The NAACP shouldn't be protesting to take that flag down! They should be trying to get it flown all over to increase awareness of the history so that it can never be repeated! All things Nazi were verboten in Germany for the last 50+ years and now there are more and more groups writing revisionist history, denying the Holocaust, and calling for a new rise of 'National Socialism'! I had ancestors that fought on both sides of that war, just as surely as any white southern redneck racist! They also fought under that flag. Yes, it's a reminder of slavery. Yes, it's a reminder of history. A history we should never allow to be repeated."
He has a good point...
Kristy, being a "(Southern) gentlemen" is a code of honour and ethics... a way of life, just as "Bushido" is. However, I have asked (and been asked
) if I've hurt people of both genders when practicing techniques. Wasn't a gender thing, it was a "gee, that was kind of intense... you OK, or did I get carried away" type of thing.
Actually, the original spelling is correct. Douglas R. Hofstadter wrote Godel, Escher & Bach, a book that even us woefully ignorant people of Southern heritage have been capable of reading, understanding and enjoying. The comparisons of the same logical and artistic principles expressed in mathmatics, art, and music was entertaining and educational. The use of those principles to enrich one's own life is an harmonious revelation.
Given the penchant for denegration of non-cultured musical tastes, I'm rather surprised at the lack of enjoyment of the artistry of J.S. Bach's fugues. As one who has studied and written many fugues, the mathmatical precision which is surpassed by the artistic interpretation should be a joy to any music lover.
As a close black friend (whose race shouldn't matter, but is relevent here
) said, "The NAACP shouldn't be protesting to take that flag down! They should be trying to get it flown all over to increase awareness of the history so that it can never be repeated! All things Nazi were verboten in Germany for the last 50+ years and now there are more and more groups writing revisionist history, denying the Holocaust, and calling for a new rise of 'National Socialism'! I had ancestors that fought on both sides of that war, just as surely as any white southern redneck racist! They also fought under that flag. Yes, it's a reminder of slavery. Yes, it's a reminder of history. A history we should never allow to be repeated."He has a good point...
Kristy, being a "(Southern) gentlemen" is a code of honour and ethics... a way of life, just as "Bushido" is. However, I have asked (and been asked
) if I've hurt people of both genders when practicing techniques. Wasn't a gender thing, it was a "gee, that was kind of intense... you OK, or did I get carried away" type of thing. It's all in our language
Panther,
what part of the "South" are you from?
what part of the "South" are you from?
It's all in our language
Born and raised in a little cabbage patch in the foothills of the Appalachian mountains in Nawth Carolina. Population ~10,000... countin' cats an' dawgs. Two, count 'em, traffic lights (but one's always on flashin' red/yeller 'cause nobody goes down thata way). Fun on Saturday night was to circle the town square in your homemade stockcar wannabe tryin' to impress the ladies... fun on Sunday afternoon was a choice of watchin' the pickup truck rust or the paint dry on the local park bench. We had a newspaper... 'bout once a week or so, dependin' on if there was any news. Durin' tha week, the sidewalks basically got rolled up an' put away at 8PM. But it was an enlightened town... had no less than a coupla dozen churches! Mostly Baptist, but with a good dose of Methodists, Presbyterians, and Lutherans. 'Bout one every 3-4 blocks. Both an A&P and a Winn-Dixie and half-a-dozen service stations... all them stockcar wannabes had to have places to get their cars "souped-up".
Football every Friday night ('cept in the summer when there was usually a band at the VFW hall for 4-bits... played both kinds of music... country and western! )... church every other night. Got to wear shoes when I went to the big city to get an edukashun.
OK, OK... it wasn't that bad.
Football every Friday night ('cept in the summer when there was usually a band at the VFW hall for 4-bits... played both kinds of music... country and western!
)... church every other night. Got to wear shoes when I went to the big city to get an edukashun.OK, OK... it wasn't that bad.
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Allen M.
It's all in our language
I've lived in NC twice, Panther, and consider it that state a beautiful place to have been raised in. The reddest soil I've ever seen comes from that country; you can grow anything in it. The most beautiful women in the world are born and raised in Charlotte -- real Southern Belles and they act the part. But no one can beat Tennessee for music!
[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited July 10, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited July 10, 2000).]
It's all in our language
Ahhhh, but it's the artestry that surpasses the mathematical precision... (apologies for the misplaced "e" previously ) Bach didn't write Das Lied or Pictures at an Exhibition or the Symphony for the New World, but he was part of the foundation for those just as Sanchin is part of the foundation for Suparenpei... The artistry in the latter doesn't conceal the precision underneath in either case.
Alan-san, must agree about Charlotte. Grew up ~45 miles NW of there and the NC red clay soil is unmatched anywhere else in the world. The women... well, my three sisters will all appreciate your comments. I, on the other hand, have found beautiful women all around the world... Oops! this is the women's forum! What have I said?!?! 
Hope no one takes offense at my non-gender neutral day-dream!
BTW, who doesn't listen to Bach's Fugue in D-minor? It's really great! Unfortunately, I could only take two nights of Wagner when I was in Saltzburg... They had a Wagner festival which included the entire performance of the Rings... three nights... nine hours long... ouch!
) Bach didn't write Das Lied or Pictures at an Exhibition or the Symphony for the New World, but he was part of the foundation for those just as Sanchin is part of the foundation for Suparenpei... The artistry in the latter doesn't conceal the precision underneath in either case. Alan-san, must agree about Charlotte. Grew up ~45 miles NW of there and the NC red clay soil is unmatched anywhere else in the world. The women... well, my three sisters will all appreciate your comments.
I, on the other hand, have found beautiful women all around the world... Oops! this is the women's forum! What have I said?!?! Hope no one takes offense at my non-gender neutral day-dream! BTW, who doesn't listen to Bach's Fugue in D-minor? It's really great!
Unfortunately, I could only take two nights of Wagner when I was in Saltzburg... They had a Wagner festival which included the entire performance of the Rings... three nights... nine hours long... ouch!It's all in our language
Guess I'm having some trouble typin' an' spellin' lately...
Otherwise...
yoah pont is well takin' good doctah. Yall seem ta be cultuhed in the finah ahts an' quite tha edukated mahn. Pleasuah ta talk with ya, suh...
BTW, Know what the plural of "yall" is?
"All yall", of course!
Otherwise...
yoah pont is well takin' good doctah. Yall seem ta be cultuhed in the finah ahts an' quite tha edukated mahn. Pleasuah ta talk with ya, suh...
BTW, Know what the plural of "yall" is?
"All yall", of course!
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Gilbert MacIntyre
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2000 6:01 am
- Location: Sydney, NS, Canada
It's all in our language
Wow, leave town for a couple of days and you miss alot. My problem with the language is probably somewhat personal.
I go into schools and talk to children I also talk to groups of adults, representing the fire service. Every little boy knows growing up if he wants to he can become a fire fighter, that's not the same for little girls. In large centers many a little girl may very well know this, but not all and in smaller centers maybe none.
I have taken pains to remove gender specific language from my presentations, if I must use it the gender I use is female. It doesn't seem to be much of a consideration now that I'm doing it.
As for treating women as ladies, I do, that is open doors, "after you", "take my seat" and so on, however I should add that these courtesies are also offered to men. Pleasantries shouldn't be restricted to just a few.
Gilbert.
I go into schools and talk to children I also talk to groups of adults, representing the fire service. Every little boy knows growing up if he wants to he can become a fire fighter, that's not the same for little girls. In large centers many a little girl may very well know this, but not all and in smaller centers maybe none.
I have taken pains to remove gender specific language from my presentations, if I must use it the gender I use is female. It doesn't seem to be much of a consideration now that I'm doing it.
As for treating women as ladies, I do, that is open doors, "after you", "take my seat" and so on, however I should add that these courtesies are also offered to men. Pleasantries shouldn't be restricted to just a few.
Gilbert.
It's all in our language
"Women should celebrate their gender."
I think the biggest problem with the whole "equality for women" movement, or feminist movement(especially the feminist movement) is that in seeking more respect for who they are and what they do, women actually abandoned who they were and what they did.
They took the position "We can do anything that you can do... better!". It seems a shame that the movements did not take the position that the traditional role of women was a vital one that should not be taken lightly, should not be forgotten, in fact should be invested in heavily!
Its also too bad that us men did not collectivley show the respect and admiration we should have before things went all to hell.
It seems to me women have denied thier rich history and role in society, have failed to "celebrate their gender" and in fact have denied it. I think that American families have suffered greatly over this. We need women to be women, and we need to give them respect for it. I doubt this will happen, it seems we have reached a point of no return where everyone is supposed to act gender-neutral.
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"There ain't no graduation from this kind of education"
I think the biggest problem with the whole "equality for women" movement, or feminist movement(especially the feminist movement) is that in seeking more respect for who they are and what they do, women actually abandoned who they were and what they did.
They took the position "We can do anything that you can do... better!". It seems a shame that the movements did not take the position that the traditional role of women was a vital one that should not be taken lightly, should not be forgotten, in fact should be invested in heavily!
Its also too bad that us men did not collectivley show the respect and admiration we should have before things went all to hell.
It seems to me women have denied thier rich history and role in society, have failed to "celebrate their gender" and in fact have denied it. I think that American families have suffered greatly over this. We need women to be women, and we need to give them respect for it. I doubt this will happen, it seems we have reached a point of no return where everyone is supposed to act gender-neutral.
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"There ain't no graduation from this kind of education"
It's all in our language
"Women should celebrate their gender."
I think the biggest problem with the whole "equality for women" movement, or feminist movement(especially the feminist
movement) is that in seeking more respect for who they are and what they do, women actually abandoned who they were
and what they did."
But who am I, and what do I do? I am a human being, first and foremost. I'm an engineer, a musician, and a beginner in martial arts. Yes, I'm female - but why should that completely dictate my role in life? I am a human being, just like you. I have talents, skills, and inclinations - none of which are toward housework and "taking care of my man".
In the bad old days, all women had to fit into one role in life - that of wife and mother. Doesn't matter if the woman wanted to learn something beyond cooking and cleaning, or to produce something more lasting than dinner, or to work on something bigger than the living room. I am incredibly grateful that I do not live in these times, and that I can show that despite my possessing a uterus, I can nevertheless be anything I want to be. I do not seek respect for my being a woman - I seek respect for me as a human being, and I earn such respect by my achievements.
Larisa
P.S. I thought the "Feminism: A Radical Philosophy that States that Women are People" is a trite, outdated tag. It seems that some men still need to learn it.
I think the biggest problem with the whole "equality for women" movement, or feminist movement(especially the feminist
movement) is that in seeking more respect for who they are and what they do, women actually abandoned who they were
and what they did."
But who am I, and what do I do? I am a human being, first and foremost. I'm an engineer, a musician, and a beginner in martial arts. Yes, I'm female - but why should that completely dictate my role in life? I am a human being, just like you. I have talents, skills, and inclinations - none of which are toward housework and "taking care of my man".
In the bad old days, all women had to fit into one role in life - that of wife and mother. Doesn't matter if the woman wanted to learn something beyond cooking and cleaning, or to produce something more lasting than dinner, or to work on something bigger than the living room. I am incredibly grateful that I do not live in these times, and that I can show that despite my possessing a uterus, I can nevertheless be anything I want to be. I do not seek respect for my being a woman - I seek respect for me as a human being, and I earn such respect by my achievements.
Larisa
P.S. I thought the "Feminism: A Radical Philosophy that States that Women are People" is a trite, outdated tag. It seems that some men still need to learn it.
