Women and sparring in class

Phaedra · Post by **Phaedra** » Thu Sep 21, 2000 8:59 am

I appreciate all of you who gave me such thoughtful responses.
I didn't go back this week, but my reasons were not just because of what happened last week. My favourite instructor is gone (and probably moving interstate soon! AHH!), and my other trusted instructor almost at the end of endurance in the club, considering leaving as soon as one of his students (in a wheelchair, but improving his mobility) gets to yellow belt. With so many good people leaving (why is it always the ones I most respect as people who leave?), my whole training schedule has been blown apart anyway, so it seems like a bad idea to continue (for now) with the instructor who drives me crazy. I am on the point now of having a go with the last remaining instructor I haven't yet trained with, in the hope that he can restore my faith in the club. It is very disheartening to watch your club fall apart like this.

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Thu Sep 21, 2000 2:34 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Phaedra:
It is very disheartening to watch your club fall apart like this.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Phaedra-san,

Yes, that's true... but always remember that budo isn't something you wear around your waist... it's something that you do the rest of your life. Perhaps not in a dojang, but in everything you do... There is nothing to prevent you from finding likeminded people to informally "workout with" and continue to live the way and walk the path whether you ever formally step a foot inside another dojang/dojo again. Your bushido is in your heart and head... your spirit and mind... and regardless of whether you chose to train your body in the dojang that you currently attend, you can always train your body... (and that doesn't necessarily mean learning anything more or new... perhaps you just become the very best at what you already know! The basics are some of the most neglected things... and the most important. Everything is in the fundamentals...) Good Luck.

[This message has been edited by Panther (edited September 21, 2000).]

ChanFan · Post by **ChanFan** » Thu Sep 21, 2000 11:43 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Phaedra:
I am on the point now of having a go with the last remaining instructor I haven't yet trained with, in the hope that he can restore my faith in the club. It is very disheartening to watch your club fall apart like this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can relate. Although my club didn't 'fall apart' (there are several schools under the banner), I began training in May of '99 under one instructor (1-2 weeks - tops), continued for the next few months under our Chief Master Instructor, then adjusted to my present instructor, from whom I've been taking instruction for a little over a year.

I was getting a little disheartened my self. It seemed that no sooner did I become comfortable with one that another stepped in. But, hang in there. Have faith in yourself and your training, and not necessarily 'the club'. Faith in others/institutions can be lost; faith in yourself, on the other hand, is with you always.

Now, regarding women sparring men... I have to admit that while I sparred originally, I am not required to do so now until I feel comfortable in the techniques I'm learning. (I mean, I suppose I could go out there and street-fight, but that's not really the purpose, is it?)

I am called upon to demonstrate self-defense techniques, and am all but always paired with a man. One particular man in my class does not roll with the punches, so to speak - meaning that he does not react to techniques when I throw them, other than to grab on tighter. While this can be very frustrating, I feel it is also excellent training for me. In order to get out of it, I have to -- well, get out of it. (This same guy told me after a testing session that my strength and technique was improving and that I was "not completely defenseless." I should feel good about that. Well, that was reassuring.)

Being paired with men in these situations makes the match more realistic to my mind and also demands more of me as a student. When I'm paired with other women, I'm a little more worried I'll hurt them; and I think they're too wary of hurting me. What is that? Some kind of societal subconcious thing goin' on? Are we women programmed with the 'men can take it; women can't' mentality, too? I don't know.

But I do know, that my training is better for being paired with folks who don't have my exact height/body type. Unless you expect to defend yourself against yourself one day, I figure the more variety you have in your training, the more realistic the expectations of your own abilities and weaknesses.

------------------
It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinions;
it is easy in solitude to live after one's own;
but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd,
keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude.

~~Emerson

Lori · Post by **Lori** » Fri Sep 22, 2000 5:35 am

Phaedra:

So sorry to hear about politics tearing at the dojo. Many of us have been there and some of us still are. I myself have alternated between wanting to say to hell with it all and go back to a "garage" style school - just a few people who want to work out together - then someone lets me know how much the school means to them, or to their child, and I somehow stick with it through the latest turmoil.

Being a female through a political entanglement brings about its own problems - many of which I've almost brought up here many times - but don't want to seem too militant - one of these days though I may just unleash my frustrations here on these pages.

One thing I have learned though - don't just go quietly or it adds to the problem. Don't be disrespectful either - but be firm in your resolve. Remember Nuremburg. Just because someone has a few dan ranks more than you do does not make them God - nor does it make them correct about everything. You have a right to question and to seek your own path - your own depth in training. Never stop doing that. But always be polite when you question - accept answers with grace and the realization that a more experienced person may have more understanding. Take it - chew on it - work with it - and if it is not you -then remember you have the freedom to move on. Stay cool if possible - and keep us posted - I've seen many people post dilemmas on these forums and recieve and apply some very valuable suggestions from people who have been in similar situations.

Chan-fan:
Welcome to the forum! Very glad to have you - and I very much enjoyed your post. I hope you will become a regular contributor.

The point you bring up about having to switch from instructor to instructor through your training is a very good point - would you care to elaborate and start a new thread on it? I believe it merits some serious discussion! I had problems with that myself coming through the ranks - and now - as a teacher myself I see an entirely different perspective.

Also enjoyed your comments about male/female partners. Thanks for posting and please come back often!

Lori

Phaedra · Post by **Phaedra** » Sat Sep 23, 2000 2:59 pm

Lori,
I'm glad to know you've been here before. I don't want to leave the club, because there are still some wonderful people here, students and senseis, but with so many people unhappy, it is not a fruitful learning environment. I have decided to write what I hope is a civil, thoughtful letter to our club founder (who seems to be uncontactable by phone), explaining just how i feel about it (something I have been encouraged to do by my unhappy instructors). So at least, if I find I have to leave, I will know that I did try, and that I won't have left quietly. If I don't get a response, perhaps I'll put it in the next essay I have to write for a grading, although that might be a fair way off, at least I'd know he'd read it.

About switching from instructor to instructor - I think it is very detrimental, expecially in the early months of training. Due to the structure of our club, and the number of people leaving, I have seen all too often students becoming discouraged after their instructor leaves. I think everyone places a certain trust in their first sensei, and if that person leaves, that particular relationship can never be replaced. Every instructor has a different style, places different emphasis on different things, and when an instructor quits, and is replaced, the class tends to go through the stages of grief almost, and that often creates resentment and lack of trust in the new instructor, that takes a long time to turn around. I definitely think there are benefits from taining with different instructors, but a high turnover is definitely not a good thing.

Tony-San · Post by **Tony-San** » Sat Sep 23, 2000 6:10 pm

Dana,

I'm only 5'6" (who is starting all these rumors!) so that is why I like your analogy. I can use it too!

Tony

Lori · Post by **Lori** » Sat Sep 23, 2000 6:36 pm

Phaedra-san,

This (teachers and changing teachers) is really an important topic. I'm going to start a new thread on it - please add to it there as well.

In the meantime - again from personal experience - Be Cautious With Letter Writing!

Notice the capitals.

I wrote a short-version of a personal experience with that to put within this post but just deleted it because I do not care to expand on the uglier side of politics.

If you care to email me at lori_san@hotmail.com I will explain my words of caution a bit more.

Meanwhile - keep faith in yourself and in your style. There is good and bad in every organization - every person. To quote someone who emailed me recently "Politics are the schits" - and it is a shame when they interfere with training. We've had a recurring slogan on these pages: "shut up and train." This is well and good as long as you have a place you can do this without detriment to any aspect of your Self and your own growth. Often times a very uncomfortable feeling with a senior or an instructor will completely change through the years - it is not for nothing that the rank system is in place. Sometimes the forced respect, even if a bit uncomfortable at the time, can have a later pay-off. I also have experience with that. In fact, my own sensei had handed over his school at one time to a senior of mine that I was very very uncomfortable with for various reasons. His techniques, methods and even the way that he hit me just didn't gibe with me. I continued to treat him with respect and shut my mouth and listened to him even while inside I alternated between hating what he was saying, disagreeing with him, and wishing that someone else was teaching the class. Now, years later, this particular senior is held in my VERY high esteem. I look forward to every chance I get to work out with him; I enjoy his insights and the way he explains what he is trying to get across, and I learn and get along very well with him. I'm not even sure how much he realized that I had so much trouble working with him for that year or so.

Then of course - there is my own growth that may have had a LITTLE to do with that. Lord knows I screw up enough - my journey is far from perfect - and even though I taught WITH my sensei for eight years before branching out on my own classes at his encouragment - I no way NEAR knew as much as I do know when I first started teaching on my own. And I have a LONG way to go still. The best teachers are perpetual students. In my own NSHO a teacher who feels like they've "mastered" it all and has nothing new to learn - only to teach - is a teacher that has no business teaching. I hope I keep learning always.

Things change. That is the only constant in life.

But your center is yours - and so is your heart. No one can take it unless you give it away. Also your style. It is yours, handed down to you - and part of your responsiblity is to preserve it by handing it down in turn. As you add the role of "teacher" to your long term one of "student" - there is a natural unsettling feeling that will come about as you come to terms with your own convictions as an individual and not one of the many in the ranks. Keep reasoning it within - keep searching your heart - the answer is there somewhere. Feel free to bounce anything you want on these pages - we keep names out but issues are welcome - hence like I said before - some of us who have been there in our own ways may have a word or two that help - maybe not. But at the very least - sometimes just getting it off your chest and venting helps clear the inner air.

Peace,
Lori

david · Post by **david** » Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:02 pm

Phaedra,

I second much of what Lori wrote: Keep your own compass and your own counsel. Don't write to the sensei. It may be something you come to regret later on. There is generally a high turnover rate in martial arts practice. Folks come and go for their own varying reasons. They also stay for their own reasons.

It is sad to leave a situation because there is always a combination of good and bad. You leave because, in the end, you have decided that the situation is not balanced in your favor or towards your needs. That's not to say it must be the same for others. Know yourself, your needs and do what you must.

Personally, I have been through number of different dojos and training situations. I left different places because the situation was not longer in tune with my needs/interests at those times. I changed and needed to move on. I have tried not to burn any bridges either.

For example, I left Uechi practice a long time ago because I needed to explore other things. But recently, I came back and started training, though not exclusively, with George Mattson some other Uechi folks. I really enjoy and am glad to be able to train with the Uechi folks when I can.

Just today, after my Filipino arts class, I dropped by the aikido dojo where I had trained for five years. I have developed a friendship with some folks there that I would I like to keep. I saw the sensei and said hello and inquired about how he was doing. Very cordial and friendly. Some of the instructors asked whether I was going to go back to train. I simply shrug and said I was engaged in other things. No other details provided because I know they have a different philosophy about their practice. That's fine and no need to bother them with my differences. My old dojomates asked about my current training and how things are going. I can give more details to them because they know where I am coming from, respect that, even though that is not exactly where they are at. The fact is I am officially on "leave" from the dojo. I can return there when I want. Whether I will do so, depends on where I am at in the future...

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited September 23, 2000).]

double ouch · Post by **double ouch** » Wed Oct 11, 2000 5:41 am

I thought you might want a mans view of the situation. I don't teach anymore, but when I did I often put beginner women together. I did not do it exclusively, but I felt they were more at ease practicing techniques with another woman. Once they were around awhile, I let them partner with whomever they chose. As for taking it easy on women when sparring. I do admit I am guilty of this. You may laugh, but I am afraid to hit a woman in the breast area or in the lower abdomen area. I don't want to injure anything valuable! Women are built different than men, and I'm not sure how sensitive those areas are. We don't know ladies! We are just trying to be good partners. You have to let us know.

Jake Steinmann · Post by **Jake Steinmann** » Wed Oct 11, 2000 1:30 pm

Funny...I count at least 6 men having posted here already

------------------
Tell the Spartans, stranger passing by,
that here obident to their laws we lie
- Inscription at the site of Thermopylae

www.tonyblauer.com/Products/HighGear/HighGear.html

LenTesta · Post by **LenTesta** » Wed Oct 11, 2000 1:42 pm

When I was "comming up through the ranks" I frequently sparred with an instructor who was a female student of Bob Bethoney. Her name was Marylin. She and I are about the same size and she was very fast. I was probably a brown belt at the time when I could finaly threaten her a little bit. Most of the other men in the dojo did not want to spar with her because they were under the impression that they had to fight men to get better. When they did spar with her they toned down their sparring which would infuriate her. Marylin was (I have not seen her for more than 10 years) a very good martial artist who made the rank of Godan. She had an extreemly good kata and was lightining fast with her kicks and punches. While sparring with Marylin, I was constantly fine tuning my multiple blocks, as she very rarely used only one technique. When she made contact she had very good control and hardly ever hit hard. I felt that I could get a really good workout with her and not worry about getting hurt. She liked to spar with me because I treated her as I treat everyone else. I never held back any of my techniques, and challenged her frequently causing her to rise above my knowledge therefore she kept learning also.

I do agree with double ouch though about newer female students. I would let them work out with each other until they have more confidence and ability. When I first started my dojo, I had my daughter and my future daughter-in-law as students. I treated them as equally as the men. I would not pair them up constantly. The men did not treat them as if they were ladies and they began to get hurt so many times that they quit.

Now when I get female students in the office for an interview I ask them what kind of training do they require. I ask them if they are comfortable working out with men or would rather work out with the other women in class.

I have had no success with trying to start a women's class. I have a female instructor who was going to teach a women only class, but I have not been able to sign up any women for this class. After two months I gave up and will now use the time slot for scenario seminar training.

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Len Testa

[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited October 11, 2000).]

Scott Cargill · Post by **Scott Cargill** » Sun Oct 15, 2000 7:09 pm

I'm all for women in martial arts, It would tickle me pink to know that my wife, daughter, niece could defend themselves against whatever the crud of this world threw at them.

But for me, it seems that women have a major obstacle they have to over come right off the bat. That being that they CAN hit someone in anger or fear, and that they CAN inflict harm to an attacker.

I've worked out with all of the women in our studio, from the 12 year old who had trained for two years, and still reverted back to slapping and retreating from someone charging her. To the 14 year old 5 foot nothing 98 lbs of tiger who would take trophys of her victims home with her. (We're selling tickets to her first date, Can't wait for the first boy that doesn't take no for an answer!

)

So far I've told myself that no matter what I'm going to treat them just like any other work out partner, if the technique calls for a groin shot, then they get one, but for whatever reason it seems that I DO end up taking it easier with them.

For what ever reason, it just seems that women need to get a little more agressive, I mean snach a lady's kid up and you've got a holy terror on your hands, but stick them in a studio against a male of equal hight and weight and they treat it like an excersize or something.

The big question here I guess is how or what can you use or do to flick the switch for some of these people??

Phoebe · Post by **Phoebe** » Tue Oct 17, 2000 2:38 am

Sorry if this is a little tangential, but I was inspired…

I have been studying Uechi Ryu for twelve years, since I was eight years old. When I started, I was one of the only girls in my program, and as I progressed through the ranks, I quickly became the highest ranking girl in the program. All of my instructors were male, as were the majority of my peers. As I got older and began to teach, I noticed the numbers of girls entering the program increasing. I felt like a role model to them, and tried my best to encourage them in their studies. However, there was no similar female role model for me to look up to. All of the people I admired in my dojo were males. Most of the guys I worked out with as well as my instructors respected me and treated me very fairly during my time there. However, I still felt that something was lacking. After going to college, I was lucky enough to discover a sensei teaching Uechi at my school. I jumped at the opportunity, and have enjoyed my time at my new dojo very much, learning and progressing all the time. However, this time, I am the only woman in the dojo. Even though I have been working out at this dojo for two years and have gotten to know my peers relatively well, I still often feel like an outsider to them. Most of the time, it doesn't bother me and I am just content to be working hard and improving my own craft. However, once in a while my sadness at my lack of women role models becomes acute, and I feel frustrated. I get the sense that if I had the opportunity to work with a higher ranked woman, I would be better able to overcome some of my problems by seeing their approach. One example of this is sparring. I enjoyed sparring a great deal when I was younger and it was all in 'fun'. But at my new dojo, sparring is much more intense, and while I appreciate the realism and now prefer it, I also feel that I am somehow not equipped to become a 'great' sparrer. I know that I'm decent, but I am often painfully aware of my shortcomings, shortcomings that my peers and sensei do not seem to be able to help me overcome. Is this because they are male, and therefore cannot understand where I am coming from? Or is it all in my head? I feel that I have gained a lot by having learned to spar with men, but at the same time I wonder if I would have learned even more if I had had the opportunity to spar with high ranked women as well. As the (apparently) sole Uechi female within a 100 mile radius, I often feel as if I am studying my karate in a void, which I find especially frustrating when I come to this bulletin board and see all the women who are out there practicing Uechi and who love it as much as I do. Sigh…maybe I should just move…

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Tue Oct 17, 2000 3:52 am

Guaranteed MA training doesn't work for everyone, Panther. However, proper martial arts training goes a long way in the mental and personality development of the individual, as well as giving a good set of fighting skills, especially if he/she started young.

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Tue Oct 17, 2000 5:18 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Scott Cargill:
I'm all for women in martial arts, It would tickle me pink to know that my wife, daughter, niece could defend themselves against whatever the crud of this world threw at them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMNSHO, anyone that believes that martial arts training (in and of itself) makes them able to "defend themselves against whatever the crud of this world throws at them" is either deluded or hasn't seen some of the $hit the crud is throwing!

Not picking on you Cargill-san, just that (again, MNSHO) feeling like your wife/daughter/sister/mother is safe because she can go "toe-to-toe with some guy in a dojo environment is a big mistake!

There are many, many more obstacles for women to overcome in a "real world"(tm) situation than realizing that they can get angry/afraid and can inflict bodily harm on someone else... The obstacles are there for those older than the 12-14 year olds that you mention and different age groups have different issues. (Can you tell this is one of my pet peeves/projects?

)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

So far I've told myself that no matter what I'm going to treat them just like any other work out partner, if the technique calls for a groin shot, then they get one, but for whatever reason it seems that I DO end up taking it easier with them.

If you're consistently taking it easier on someone over numerous workouts, it seems that is your issue, not theirs... It is their problem, though, because they can't get the needed benefit from the training.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

The big question here I guess is how or what can you use or do to flick the switch for some of these people??

In case there's interest, here's the way I've handled it whenever I've trained with/taught a woman (of whatever age

)...

I start-off at whatever level she is comfortable with... operative term being "start-off". This is quickly escalated to a point where we are going at it very hard, very heavy, with me continuously giving encouragement and feedback. These sessions are always very tough, especially in the beginning.

I have yet to find a woman who was unable to "rise to the challenge" of this training. If anything, they get more determined... keep in mind that it is something that is built up to from an initial comfort level. The purpose is to get them used to a physical confrontation.

Finally, we move to the mental confrontation. These types of sessions are never done with observers around, only the class (usually all women, outsiders don't understand and will misunderstand so be aware of that). This includes getting beyond "garbage mouth" and verbal intimidation. There is lots of scenerio training and you can say and do anything as an attacker... they can say and do anything as a defender... Precautions are taken by having mats and wearing some padding. (still there can always be some bruising in this type of thing... Tony Blauer's High Gear will be great for this, but unfortunately when I was doing this 10-15 years ago, we didn't have that)

Finally, every session ends with a discussion and a reaquainting of each other as friends rather than defender/attacker... otherwise the emotions can get way too intense and the women will begin to see the instructor as a threat rather than a friend.

I've done this type of training with women from 12 to 58 successfully... I've never met a woman that I couldn't learn from or who couldn't learn from being confronted with a 6'2", 275# work-out partner/"attacker"... As a man, you can learn so much from working out (for real, not patty-cake) with a woman... physically, mentally, and emotionally. One of the biggest hurdles is to not short-change either yourself or your workout partner. Then again, there's those 5'2" woman Uechi-kas who I know can take me out!

I just need to get them to teach me, but first I have to get over being intimidated.

be good to each other...

[This message has been edited by Panther (edited October 16, 2000).]