Trained Rapists

creativebrother · Post by **creativebrother** » Mon May 07, 2001 1:04 pm

Has there ever been any interviews done with rapists who also have martial arts training?
I've often wondered how effective the self defense techniques would be on a rapist who has himself studied a martial art. It seems to me that most of the things that people are taught to do to escape a rape are things that are to be done on the untrained.

In fact, does anyone know if there have been interviews done with rapists who are also martial artists? Or does the martial arts really influence character to the point that 99.9999999% of practitioners are beyond such barbaric sadism.

In the Realities forum, we talk about our techinique failing under defense. I often wonder of a predator martial artist forgets about his own technique as well.

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Cecil

http://www.geocities.com/creativebrother/scifipage.html

david · Post by **david** » Mon May 07, 2001 3:15 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I've often wondered how effective the self defense techniques would be on a rapist who has himself studied a martial art. It seems to me that most of the things that people are taught to do to escape a rape are things that are to be done on the untrained.

Thinking about techniques is futile. Too many variables. The only thing to control is your own mindset -- that you're willing to do what it takes to survive. For some, that means "fighting" from the get-go.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

In fact, does anyone know if there have been interviews done with rapists who are also martial artists? Or does the martial arts really influence character to the point that 99.9999999% of practitioners are beyond such barbaric sadism.

People are people, including martial artists. Too many stories over the years of "predatory" artists and instructors to think we are better or above it as a group. The problem is that folks buy into the "Caine/Kung Fu" thing and let themselves get used -- physically, mentally and other ways.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In the Realities forum, we talk about our technique failing under defense. I often wonder of a predator martial artist forgets about his own technique as well.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brother Cecil, No, the "attacker" doesn't forget... at least in the initial moments. He has the initiative and picks his moment.

I won't admit to being a "pedator," but I had on more than several occaisons thrown the "first shot" when I felt I had to. I had the physical initiative. I knew where and when to hit. None on the recieving end recovered. PERIOD.

The problem for us generally is that we're defensive mostly and have late initiative. We're trying to recover mentally and physically from the initial attack.

david

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Wed May 09, 2001 10:23 pm

This post will probably gather a lot of flack, because what I'm going to say will be unpopular with many.

Most of what I have seen being taught in traditional dojos for rape defense SIMPLY WILL NOT WORK ON THE STREET.

The idea of using high kicks, wrist releases that require brute strength and mythological one-strike stops to an opponent are all the kinds of myths that get people killed.

Rape is not about sex - this is one of the BIG myths. Rape is about control, power and violence. It is often an act of revenge of a sort done by a person who is angry.

Rage is a potent weapon and a one-strike attempt at stopping a raging person, in general, will not work unless the strike is seriously debilitating or fatal.

Such strikes are hard to pull off in a surprise rape situation. Ask Cynthia Rothrock. With all her training and championships, she was a rape victim and my heart goes out to her for that.

In a rape situation, many times, the perpetrator actually ENJOYS being hit! It gives them a thrill that they are overcoming the power of the victim.

So, if one is in a rape situation, firstly, be aware of what you are doing at all times. Surprise is often the rapist's biggest ally. If you are aware of who the perp is, they may not try for you.

Secondly, if you get physical, play for keeps. Legal consequences notwithstanding, you are defending yourself in a probably lethal situation. Don't hold back and don't get fancy.

Kicking the shins won't work - it probably won't even slow him down much. Trying to duke it out with him toe to toe is probably a bad idea, too. It's a risk that is like tossing a coin and saying "heads - you rape me, Tails - I get to run away."

Make noise in a rape situation - Yell things like "FIRE!" People come out to see fires. People call Fire Departments, who bring police on their calls. They do not come out for calls for help or calls for police.

Use available weapons - keys, perfume (yes - it hurts when in the eyes and leaves an identifying scent for later identification), credit cards (cut well whe slashed at an opponent) and RUN!

He can't rape you if he can't get his paws on you.

These ramblings will probably get return fire, but I have yet to have a student successfully raped, so I guess they work.

Hope this helps.

Lee Darrow

student · Post by **student** » Thu May 10, 2001 3:41 am

Hey Lee,

Jubei, here you're preaching to the choir. What actually works is the mantra of these Forums.

Set back, kick off your shoes, set awhile. Enjoy.

student,
d.i. (Yep, the one who e-mailed you the threads from these Forums.) (Forgive the private stuff, folks, but we go WAY back....)

[This message has been edited by student (edited May 09, 2001).]

david · Post by **david** » Thu May 10, 2001 11:54 am

Hi Lee,

First welcome to the forums.

Nice post, just some comments and not "firing" at ya!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Most of what I have seen being taught in traditional dojos for rape defense SIMPLY WILL NOT WORK ON THE STREET.

Anytime, I see a book billed as a "self-defense" orented but showing techniques -- especially those that looked like someone's favorite sparring techniques -- I used to laugh. Now, I just put it down and go onto the next book. It ain't funny when you know of folks who have been raped.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>be aware of what you are doing at all times. Surprise is often the rapist's biggest ally. If you are aware of who the perp is, they may not try for you....

Secondly, if you get physical, play for keeps. Legal consequences notwithstanding, you are defending yourself in a probably lethal situation. Don't hold back and don't get fancy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't disagree with first or the second. But the first covers situations when the potential victim is out and about and should be in condition yellow. Doesn't work with "date rape" and someone breaking in in the middle of night. The latter happened with a friend of mine...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

In a rape situation, many times, the perpetrator actually ENJOYS being hit! It gives them a thrill that they are overcoming the power of the victim.

You didn't make an absolute statement and that's just as well. There're different "types" of rapist and, depending on the type, will react differently to a victim fighting back. Also the crime scene and the isolation of such plays a role in the rapist's response. Read Gavin DeBecker, Sanford Strong and Mindhunter. The name of the author of the latter eludes me but he was one of the original "profilers" for the FBI.

This is the abstract for one stories from Monday's Boston Herald:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>A pock-marked black man scared off by a 16-year-old Dorchester girl he tried to rape in her bed early yesterday morning could be the same midnight marauder suspected of a recent rash of home invasions, investigators said.

Police discovered last week that a composite sketch of a black man linked to six other nighttime home invasions in Dorchester in the past month ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Basically, the girl screamed and fought back. The rapist took off. He was an "opportunitistic" rapist who would do so when the chance presents in break-ins.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

but I have yet to have a student successfully raped, so I guess they work.

I am glad that none of your students seemed to have been a "victim" yet. Nevertheless, I would not be too sure and I wouldn't predicate their avoidance of such a fate to just training... I don't care how well trained any one of us are, we all can be defeated and victimized. We can provide tools but we can never ever guarantee...

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited May 10, 2001).]

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Thu May 10, 2001 4:23 pm

I am glad that none of your students seemed to have been a "victim" yet. Nevertheless, I would not be too sure and I wouldn't predicate their avoidance of such a fate to just training... I don't care how well trained any one of us are, we all can be defeated and victimized. We can provide tools but we can never ever guarantee...

Thanks for the kind words, David. I would never say that my training was the only thing that kept anyone from harm, but IMHO, it helped. Let's face it, Cynthia Rothrock was a rape victim, so anyone CAN be beaten, no question. So I apologize for miscommunicating my thought on that.

The date rape thing is also an issue that needs to be examined as it is far more common that "stranger rape" according to my sources.

In a date rape situation, one has already partially let their guard down and that's where situation training might be helpful, but the problems with that kind of training is the simulation of the act could be misconstrued by a naive student as an attempt at the real thing and could lead to litigation, which is something my old friend Student is far more qualified to comment on that I am.

Kindest Regards,

Lee Darrow

[This message has been edited by david (edited May 10, 2001).][/B][/QUOTE]

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"No matter where you go, there you MIGHT be!" - Heisenberg

creativebrother · Post by **creativebrother** » Thu May 10, 2001 7:04 pm

Call me believing in the martial dream, but was Cynthia Rothrock really raped? After she was a champ? Does anybody have an article or a link to one so that I can read this myself.

I'm not saying it's impossible, I simply want proof.

Cecil

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Cecil

http://www.geocities.com/creativebrother/scifipage.html

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Wed May 16, 2001 10:45 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by creativebrother:
Call me believing in the martial dream, but was Cynthia Rothrock really raped? After she was a champ? Does anybody have an article or a link to one so that I can read this myself.

I'm not saying it's impossible, I simply want proof.

Inside Martial Arts Magazine about 4 years ago ran an article on it, as did Black Belt, I think. Check their archives. She also has talked about it on more than one accasion at tournaments.

Regards,

Lee Darrow
Cecil

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>