Hello,
I have been following the thread on the "Women's Self Defense" posted by M.M. and found the subject of "new female student training" that developed worth throwing out there for discussion.
It interests me because 1)I am a new female student, and 2)I always find it frustrating, how, in this day and age women are still viewed in as the "weaker sex".
A simple suggestion that could open many doors on this matter; take a moment out to have a phone or person to person conversation with your new female student. You may be surprised at what you hear. Personally I find it offensive when others think they know best for me and when they don't show me the common courtesy to ask my opinion when it comes to myself. Although, with me, I'm going to tell you before you get the chance to ask. We are adults and should be shown the respect to be treated as such.
What no one seems to be thinking of is the fact that this woman has the back bone to sign up, don't set her back by deciding what is best for her without talking to her first. Either don't ask and have her participate the same as everyone else in class and give her some kind words of reassurance(you would be amazed at what "you're catching on" can do) or talk to her before she starts her first class. It is that simple. But don't insult her by treating her different. We do pick up on signals and body language and we will notice that we aren't being treated the same as everyone else just because we are a woman.
Tig wrote:
"With women, in general, they feel timid, or at some level, that they are doing something wrong by striking out or showing agression. And I use those terms in the broadest sense."
I am a woman, I never feel timid, and not at any level do I feel like I am doing something wrong by striking out or showing aggression to anyone, ever.
Tig wrote:
"We must realize that while boys are taught to be agressive with one another in sports and friendships, women are not."
If "play hard", "go get'em", "don't back down", "you can do this", and "I want to see some spirit out there" being said by a coach to a player is teaching a boy to be aggressive in sports, then girls are being taught the same thing from their coaches. Women play more than bad minton and croquet now a days.
And as far as teaching a boy to be aggressive in a friendship? I have yet to meet a parent who tells their kid "be aggressive when you are playing with Joey".
Okay so I may seem harsh or even a bit aggressive but it really strikes a nerve when I see comments about "women in general" that sets our gender back 40 to 50 years.
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"just enjoy the journey"
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Peace Out......
Best approach with new female student...
Moderator: Available
Best approach with new female student...
Thanks for the input, Dukie. You have many points that are very well taken and you express them with the passion of the believer.
You also seem to be part of a newer attitude showing up in gyms and dojo (I expect) across the nation - women who are NOT hindered in their ability to own their own power.
IMHO, this is a good thing, generally.
As to the weaker sex - let's face it, there ARE physiological differences in musculature, bone sturcture and the like, but those differences can be dealt with in a number of ways - conditioning, weight training and the like for openers. All to the good.
Your comments on simple encouragement are extremely well taken. I had numerous students in my classes who would say - "I left so-and-so's school because I never felt that I could do anything right." I took those comments to heart and, I believe any good Sensei should as well.
Pre-first instruction interviewing is also, IMHO, critically important to developing a good learning environment. Different students have different goals, as do Sensei. If a student comes to a dojo wanting to learn how to deal with a particular problem and the Sensei is focused on tournament, then the student and teacher will both come away unhappy.
More on the "weaker sex" issue. Whole can of worms there, because that term, erroneous as it is, IMHO, is also a part of the cultural attitudes prevalent in our society.
I disagree with the concept of a "weaker sex", completely.
A knockout is a knockout is a knockout. It doesn't really matter, in a real fight, whether the knockout came from a shoken to the head, an empi or a geri, whether the technique is delevered by a female or a male. The opponent is out of the fight. Period.
Sexism, which I am sure was not intended by the other poster you refer to, is a fact of life in these United States. It is wrong, but it exists. Dealing with it, whether from a verbal self-defense standpoint or through physical response should be predicated by the presenting situation as it occurs. Some people are idiots on this issue and should simply be ignored - others can be educated - others are abusers and, in some cases, need to be physically dealt with.
I enjoyed your post and the thought provoking points you made. Glad to see you in here.
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
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"No matter where you go, there you MIGHT be!" - Heisenberg
You also seem to be part of a newer attitude showing up in gyms and dojo (I expect) across the nation - women who are NOT hindered in their ability to own their own power.
IMHO, this is a good thing, generally.
As to the weaker sex - let's face it, there ARE physiological differences in musculature, bone sturcture and the like, but those differences can be dealt with in a number of ways - conditioning, weight training and the like for openers. All to the good.
Your comments on simple encouragement are extremely well taken. I had numerous students in my classes who would say - "I left so-and-so's school because I never felt that I could do anything right." I took those comments to heart and, I believe any good Sensei should as well.
Pre-first instruction interviewing is also, IMHO, critically important to developing a good learning environment. Different students have different goals, as do Sensei. If a student comes to a dojo wanting to learn how to deal with a particular problem and the Sensei is focused on tournament, then the student and teacher will both come away unhappy.
More on the "weaker sex" issue. Whole can of worms there, because that term, erroneous as it is, IMHO, is also a part of the cultural attitudes prevalent in our society.
I disagree with the concept of a "weaker sex", completely.
A knockout is a knockout is a knockout. It doesn't really matter, in a real fight, whether the knockout came from a shoken to the head, an empi or a geri, whether the technique is delevered by a female or a male. The opponent is out of the fight. Period.
Sexism, which I am sure was not intended by the other poster you refer to, is a fact of life in these United States. It is wrong, but it exists. Dealing with it, whether from a verbal self-defense standpoint or through physical response should be predicated by the presenting situation as it occurs. Some people are idiots on this issue and should simply be ignored - others can be educated - others are abusers and, in some cases, need to be physically dealt with.
I enjoyed your post and the thought provoking points you made. Glad to see you in here.
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
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"No matter where you go, there you MIGHT be!" - Heisenberg
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Best approach with new female student...
Perhaps the strong differences of opinion articulated by Tig and Dukie - both women - highlight the dangers of generalizations. It seems that the only thing we can state with confidence concerning the sexes is the existence of either X or Y on that second chromosome. While this leads to some arguably unique characteristics, the characteristics of the individual sexes overlap tremendously. In my studies of successful personalities, it seems that the movers and shakers in this world carry both yin and yang characteristics.
The other day I was perusing a book in the library on the reproductive habits of primates. One of the theories put forth by that book is that the differences in size between males and females determined - to a large extent - whether the particular species was likely to be monogamous or polygamous. It seems that homo sapiens is more on the extreme likeness spectrum, with the average size difference between the sexes being only 15% (vs. 100% for species like gorillas). So among primates, our species shows more similarities between sexes than differences. Imagine that!
Then again, I've been accused of being a Neanderthal...
- Bill
The other day I was perusing a book in the library on the reproductive habits of primates. One of the theories put forth by that book is that the differences in size between males and females determined - to a large extent - whether the particular species was likely to be monogamous or polygamous. It seems that homo sapiens is more on the extreme likeness spectrum, with the average size difference between the sexes being only 15% (vs. 100% for species like gorillas). So among primates, our species shows more similarities between sexes than differences. Imagine that!
Then again, I've been accused of being a Neanderthal...
- Bill
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creativebrother
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Sun May 06, 2001 6:01 am
- Contact:
Best approach with new female student...
"What no one seems to be thinking of is the fact that this woman has the back bone to sign up, don't set her back by deciding what is best for her without talking to her first. "
Well, welcome to the world of karate-do. Odds are, they are simply going to tell you what to do to see if you can follow instruction.
Some schools are simply going to decide what they think is best for you not because you are a female, but because you are NEW. I really don't remember anyone ever asking me what was best for me, other than having me fill out the medical history forms. And the more traditional and/or hardcore the school, the less input you are going to have. From what I've seen, they may be more interested in your level of fitness than in your gender per se.
There is a lot to contend with: the "one size fits all" mentality for one. And, the aversion of male student towards striking female students.
Think about this: these days, the male that cares in a catch 22 in the dojo. On the one hand, if you go too easy on a female, you'll be looked at as doing a disservice. On the other hand, if you brawled it out with a female in a dojo, you'd be looked at as an abuser. My workaround: I am simply trying to improve. I try not to bully anybody or let that happen to me in return.
Dojos are microcosms of society and therefore have similar problems that the macro-culture does. I have had problems visiting some places simply because I am a big young black guy, I am a big guy, I am a young guy, I am a guy, I trained with an instructor someone doesn't like, I do high kicks, I had training before in an art that someone doesn't like---the list is endless.
My advice to a female student: if you feel comfortable there, train there, if not, move on.
Cecil
http://www.infopost.com/SellerListings.asp?navtyp=SRH&Nm=creativebrother
http://creativebrother.freehosting.net/scificindex.html
Well, welcome to the world of karate-do. Odds are, they are simply going to tell you what to do to see if you can follow instruction.
Some schools are simply going to decide what they think is best for you not because you are a female, but because you are NEW. I really don't remember anyone ever asking me what was best for me, other than having me fill out the medical history forms. And the more traditional and/or hardcore the school, the less input you are going to have. From what I've seen, they may be more interested in your level of fitness than in your gender per se.
There is a lot to contend with: the "one size fits all" mentality for one. And, the aversion of male student towards striking female students.
Think about this: these days, the male that cares in a catch 22 in the dojo. On the one hand, if you go too easy on a female, you'll be looked at as doing a disservice. On the other hand, if you brawled it out with a female in a dojo, you'd be looked at as an abuser. My workaround: I am simply trying to improve. I try not to bully anybody or let that happen to me in return.
Dojos are microcosms of society and therefore have similar problems that the macro-culture does. I have had problems visiting some places simply because I am a big young black guy, I am a big guy, I am a young guy, I am a guy, I trained with an instructor someone doesn't like, I do high kicks, I had training before in an art that someone doesn't like---the list is endless.
My advice to a female student: if you feel comfortable there, train there, if not, move on.
Cecil
http://www.infopost.com/SellerListings.asp?navtyp=SRH&Nm=creativebrother
http://creativebrother.freehosting.net/scificindex.html
Best approach with new female student...
Cecil is also right about the idea of a traditional dojo not being very communicative. Many "old school" Sensei show up, teach and close the door in my experience.
Pity - it's more interesting and useful from a teaching standpoint, in my experience, to get to know the student, their motivations and the like. What I said about points of focus (tournament, defense against an abuser, etc) may lead to some very ugly feelings between student and teacher and can best be avoided by talking things through before enrollment.
I always opened my new classes by saying, "This is a class in Karate - the art of the Empty Hand. If you are here to be a tournament player or to learn how to be the next Bruce Lee - there's the door. This class is about defending yourself - physically, mentally and emotionally. It's not about learning to kick someone's a**. It's not about fancy high kicks. It's not about secret techniques of killing with your eyebrows. It's about learning to protect yourself - and that means work. Plain and simple.
"My agreement with you is to teach you what I know to the best of my ability. To assess your strengths and weaknesses and help you develop yourselves into someone who can handle themselves in a real life situation. To teach you the encyclopedia of my Art, the sequences called katas. To teach you the inner, mental and spiritual side as well as the physical side of what it is to be a martial artist, not just some street fighter with some fancy moves.
"If that's why you are here, great. Onigai-shimasu, I will do my best. If not, please stop by registration and transfer to another class (this was an evening ed program through a community college) and thank you for stopping in."
Followed by a short personal biography and a round robbin of who each student is and why they were there.
I found this really helped my new female (and even some of the male) students feel more a part of something important, affirmed that they were doing something to take control of their lives and let them know what kind of person I perceive myself to be.
Such an opening can go a long way towards building good student-teacher relationships and cuts some of the nonsense that can happen through misplaced expectations.
Just my .02 worth.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Pity - it's more interesting and useful from a teaching standpoint, in my experience, to get to know the student, their motivations and the like. What I said about points of focus (tournament, defense against an abuser, etc) may lead to some very ugly feelings between student and teacher and can best be avoided by talking things through before enrollment.
I always opened my new classes by saying, "This is a class in Karate - the art of the Empty Hand. If you are here to be a tournament player or to learn how to be the next Bruce Lee - there's the door. This class is about defending yourself - physically, mentally and emotionally. It's not about learning to kick someone's a**. It's not about fancy high kicks. It's not about secret techniques of killing with your eyebrows. It's about learning to protect yourself - and that means work. Plain and simple.
"My agreement with you is to teach you what I know to the best of my ability. To assess your strengths and weaknesses and help you develop yourselves into someone who can handle themselves in a real life situation. To teach you the encyclopedia of my Art, the sequences called katas. To teach you the inner, mental and spiritual side as well as the physical side of what it is to be a martial artist, not just some street fighter with some fancy moves.
"If that's why you are here, great. Onigai-shimasu, I will do my best. If not, please stop by registration and transfer to another class (this was an evening ed program through a community college) and thank you for stopping in."
Followed by a short personal biography and a round robbin of who each student is and why they were there.
I found this really helped my new female (and even some of the male) students feel more a part of something important, affirmed that they were doing something to take control of their lives and let them know what kind of person I perceive myself to be.
Such an opening can go a long way towards building good student-teacher relationships and cuts some of the nonsense that can happen through misplaced expectations.
Just my .02 worth.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Best approach with new female student...
Hi, This is my first time replying to the board, but I thought I would give it a shot.
I am a female black belt who has been studying since I was a kid. The SINGLE BEST THING my sensei did for me was to treat me the same as everyone else. I very quickly learned what I could handle and what I couldn't and learned to speak up. Of course I have had problems with men, especially as a 15 year old brown belt warming up the adult beginner class. As a black belt I still often come up against men who are stronger by far than I am. You know what? So do the men I train with. There is no man out there who is THE strongest, THE fastest or THE best at everything. So what do you men do when you start arm pounding with someone who is far stronger than yourself? You grit your teeth and bear it, and when you realize that you are at or just past your limit, you speak up and tell the partner to move it over a bit or to lighten up a bit. Uechi, as I was taught it, involves a great deal of respect and trust in your partner. Teaching the men that they must treat women in their class differently only perpetuates horrible sexism that runs rampant in society. I don't need a sensei to take care of me in conditioning or testing, I can do that just fine myself. Men who work with me always give me a good strength work out. Some men choose not to work with me because I can't return that same favor. However, men who do work with me find that my techniques are generally better honed (in terms of precision) and that my motion with my feet (that is sidestepping) is far more advanced than theirs. Over ten years you learn different nuances to attacks based on your own strengths and weaknesses. I move far more in my kumite than others do, especially in Dan kumite. I can't take a 6'2 military reservist's punch straight on. No matter how fast I am. No matter how many weights I lift. Does this mean I am a bad black belt? Is it bad that I side step out of the way and come up underneath him to disable him? No, it means I am playing to my strengths and his weaknesses.
This has gone on for awhile. The basic point is to teach ALL your students to respect each other EQUALLY. Don't turn it into a patronizing event for the women in your class, where the men feel that they have to "take care" of the women and not hurt them. Talk to all your students before hand to find out if they have any issues (with women especially, if they are survivors of rape) and then let them know that you see all students as simply that, students wanting to be instructed. Teach them to work WITH their partners, to train and learn and grow as martial artists together, collaboratively, rather than against each other.
I am a female black belt who has been studying since I was a kid. The SINGLE BEST THING my sensei did for me was to treat me the same as everyone else. I very quickly learned what I could handle and what I couldn't and learned to speak up. Of course I have had problems with men, especially as a 15 year old brown belt warming up the adult beginner class. As a black belt I still often come up against men who are stronger by far than I am. You know what? So do the men I train with. There is no man out there who is THE strongest, THE fastest or THE best at everything. So what do you men do when you start arm pounding with someone who is far stronger than yourself? You grit your teeth and bear it, and when you realize that you are at or just past your limit, you speak up and tell the partner to move it over a bit or to lighten up a bit. Uechi, as I was taught it, involves a great deal of respect and trust in your partner. Teaching the men that they must treat women in their class differently only perpetuates horrible sexism that runs rampant in society. I don't need a sensei to take care of me in conditioning or testing, I can do that just fine myself. Men who work with me always give me a good strength work out. Some men choose not to work with me because I can't return that same favor. However, men who do work with me find that my techniques are generally better honed (in terms of precision) and that my motion with my feet (that is sidestepping) is far more advanced than theirs. Over ten years you learn different nuances to attacks based on your own strengths and weaknesses. I move far more in my kumite than others do, especially in Dan kumite. I can't take a 6'2 military reservist's punch straight on. No matter how fast I am. No matter how many weights I lift. Does this mean I am a bad black belt? Is it bad that I side step out of the way and come up underneath him to disable him? No, it means I am playing to my strengths and his weaknesses.
This has gone on for awhile. The basic point is to teach ALL your students to respect each other EQUALLY. Don't turn it into a patronizing event for the women in your class, where the men feel that they have to "take care" of the women and not hurt them. Talk to all your students before hand to find out if they have any issues (with women especially, if they are survivors of rape) and then let them know that you see all students as simply that, students wanting to be instructed. Teach them to work WITH their partners, to train and learn and grow as martial artists together, collaboratively, rather than against each other.
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gmattson
- Site Admin
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Best approach with new female student...
Good for you sorceress! Your message is one we should all listen to. . . even the tough men in the audience.
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GEM
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GEM
Best approach with new female student...
Just as a clarification...I am no longer 15. I reread my message and realized that I sounded younger than I am. I am actually in my mid-twenties now, but I already feel like I am getting older 
Best approach with new female student...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Sorceress, I agree with your viewpoint. Gender issues are real, as are race, class or what have you. At some point, the person has to get on with it and deal. In so doing, you evolve and hopefully help evolve those others and the environment around you.
david
Exactly! No one place will be "the place" for everybody, male or female.My advice to a female student: if you feel comfortable there, train there, if not, move on.
Sorceress, I agree with your viewpoint. Gender issues are real, as are race, class or what have you. At some point, the person has to get on with it and deal. In so doing, you evolve and hopefully help evolve those others and the environment around you.
david
Best approach with new female student...
Sorceress,
Welcome aboard and congratulations on a great post.
As it may be that I miscommunicated my intentions in a couple of prior posts, let me clarify, just to be sure I am getting across what I was trying to get across.
Shosei are shosei. Male, female, whatever. The reasons I used to do the intake routine in a class (it was an introductory class to self defense, not style-specific) was so that I could aim my teaching efforts to better meet the expectations of the students enrolled in the class. Nothing more.
It is my personal belief that the more I know about a student's motivations for taking a class, the better I can work to help them achieve their goals while still working within the methods of teaching that I was brought up in.
Differences in height, weight, speed, muscle tone and everything else all figured into how I taught the class. My goal was to allow each student find their own strengths and weaknesses and learn to work with or around them or to elminiate a weakness that needn't be there at all.
In the days of traditional Dojo, shosei literally apprenticed to the Sensei or Shihan. In many cases, they lived at the Dojo, much like the Aikido Uchideshi do even today.
This allowed the Sensei to observe, learn and know the shosei and better teach them their Art.
In today's society, this is impossible. My little round robbin "who are you and why are you here," routine was simply a way for me to get to know the students as people, to learn their motivations and to disspell any misconceptions they might have had from watching bad Chinese import films.
My Sensei used to say - "A knockout is a knockout is a knockout. It doesn't matter if the knockout comes from a guy the size of Godzilla or from a twelve year-old girl or from an eighty year-old man with arthritis. It's still a knockout. Strive for it, no matter who you are."
I couldn't agree with him more.
I hope this clears any misconceptions that might have arisen from my somewhat rambling posts earlier. I apologize if I did not communicate more clearly. If I have still not made myself clear, please let me know and I will try to correct the difficulty.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Welcome aboard and congratulations on a great post.
As it may be that I miscommunicated my intentions in a couple of prior posts, let me clarify, just to be sure I am getting across what I was trying to get across.
Shosei are shosei. Male, female, whatever. The reasons I used to do the intake routine in a class (it was an introductory class to self defense, not style-specific) was so that I could aim my teaching efforts to better meet the expectations of the students enrolled in the class. Nothing more.
It is my personal belief that the more I know about a student's motivations for taking a class, the better I can work to help them achieve their goals while still working within the methods of teaching that I was brought up in.
Differences in height, weight, speed, muscle tone and everything else all figured into how I taught the class. My goal was to allow each student find their own strengths and weaknesses and learn to work with or around them or to elminiate a weakness that needn't be there at all.
In the days of traditional Dojo, shosei literally apprenticed to the Sensei or Shihan. In many cases, they lived at the Dojo, much like the Aikido Uchideshi do even today.
This allowed the Sensei to observe, learn and know the shosei and better teach them their Art.
In today's society, this is impossible. My little round robbin "who are you and why are you here," routine was simply a way for me to get to know the students as people, to learn their motivations and to disspell any misconceptions they might have had from watching bad Chinese import films.
My Sensei used to say - "A knockout is a knockout is a knockout. It doesn't matter if the knockout comes from a guy the size of Godzilla or from a twelve year-old girl or from an eighty year-old man with arthritis. It's still a knockout. Strive for it, no matter who you are."
I couldn't agree with him more.
I hope this clears any misconceptions that might have arisen from my somewhat rambling posts earlier. I apologize if I did not communicate more clearly. If I have still not made myself clear, please let me know and I will try to correct the difficulty.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
