During an interesting after workout discussion at my dojo, participants who shall remain nameless proponed the fact that abused or raped women often "ask for it." Well, this got my ire up and as I began to unsheath my claws the discussion included women who dress provocatively therefore provoking attacks and attention from predators. Certainly, I advocate dressing conservatively when having to travel or walk a public street - it is part of the self-defense course I teach - why ask for it? But it aggravates me to no end that it is even necessary... what a sick society! Cultural, religious and social mores aside, a woman should be able to dress attractively without subjecting herself to violent attack. OK - I'm not suggesting that females be priveledged to walk the streets in overly provacative attire (sorry JD - I know you'd love that) but I'm sure we've all seen women harrassed in jeans and a t-shirt. Some women look sexy in a burlap sack - and if it shows a bit too much leg or cleavage then she is "asking for it"??? There is a line - hard to draw given the "anything goes" fashion of the nineties and the new millenium - but to assume that a rape victim "asked for it" based on her wardrobe choice of the day is to me, decending to a judgemental frame of mind no better than the predator who figures that she is easy meat.
Then you have the cases like the 15 year old girl raped at 6:30 am on the way to her bus stop last week in Orlando... I'm sure her school clothes were designed to attract rapists. How dare she dress so provacatively! Before you totally jump my case - I know damn well that teenagers push the limit like no other age group - (I've got one myself) and tight clothes on a young nubile woman would probably be enough to tempt a saint (I'm leaving priests out of this one) but again - to say she asked for it is ridiculous. Many young teenagers don't even have a clue about their own sexuality and what they wear having anything to do with it - the way they dress is driven by peers, what is "cool" and acceptable - sure - they want to look good for the boys but I doubt that even one of them is "asking" to be raped for God's sake.
And then we move to the case of the abused woman. Yes, there is help out there. There are places to call. There are places to go. But that is not the issue. The issue is the woman being capable to make that move, take that step, move outside her terror and non-existent self-esteem and do something to save her life. She does not realize at the time even that saving her life is the issue. She has been conditioned and brainwashed into believing that she deserves this kind of treatment - that there is no other option for her - that asking for help is for those who are worse off than her - only for the really "sick" relationships and of course her spouse/boyfriend is just having a bad day... There are so many ways to rationalize the abuse, and to suggest that the woman is to "weak" or "shallow" to do anything to change her life is to suggest an obtuse mind, never having faced adversity, never feeling that deepest darkest despair and feeling of hopelessness - judgemental and biased and chauvanistic - whether the opining person be male or female.
So - what is my point you ask. My point is - as has often been before - educate yourself before forming a solid opinion. Before you are so dead set into believing that abused or raped women "ask" for it - volunteer in a shelter - read a few survivor accounts - take some training for a hotline. Open your heart and see beyond your priveledged and pampered life - you may see a side of things you never knew existed from the other side of the street.
Peace,
Lori
She deserved it
Moderator: Available
-
Shelly King
She deserved it
GRRRRRRRR!!!!! Denial, denial, denial....she was asking for it so therefore it won't happen to me or someone I care about. Nice logic!
She deserved it
Tony-san,
Let me start by saying that I agree with much of what you say. You are exactly right - sure - it would be nice if we could all walk around wearing whatever we want and not worry about people making assumptions - but fact remains is that this is not a perfect world (or perfect as we may define it) and it IS survival of the fittest - and even animals learn how to camouflage themselves... or if it is not learned behavior then evolution dictates that adaptation for the survival of their species.
I am a big time advocate of dressing to blend in rather than stick out - there is a time and a place for everything. The street is not the place to show your stuff.
On the other side of this subject though - I hear what you are saying about awareness being part of the problem. What I maintain however is that some abused women are incapable, through conditioning, brainwashing, societal mindset or programming or whatEVER, of being aware of these situations. My objection is that people who have not been involved intimately in an abusive situation, (either their loved ones or themselves) can not see outside their clearer perspective. The abused woman's perspective is clouded by all the above and more, and it is not fair to assume that she is weak or unwilling to make a change - circumstances often interfere with that choice. A very strong and capable woman I worked with married a guy who was everyone's dream. And he was, for about the first 6 or 7 years. Then he started using, because of their foundation of love and respect, she stuck with him, trying to help him out of the habit - only leaving when the abuse turned toward their children. Sadly, the day she got a restraining order and she had moved out of the house, he broke into her new residence with a .357 and blew his brains out all over her and almost took her with him. There is NO way she could have been aware of this situation developing when she married him. There is NO way her family or friends could have predicted it either. After building a life together she was loathe to abandon all they had built, but had enough sense and strength to get out when it went too far. But it still wasn't good enough.
This is just one situation - there are many many more. My point in my initial post is that there is often more than meets the eye in an abusive situation. To assume that the abused person is weak, shallow or unaware is easy enough when you are all the way outside the situation - once digging a little deeper there are many things that can come to light. All we can do is continue to offer support to those who may be in that situation, and try to be less judgemental.
Peace,
Lori
[This message has been edited by Lori (edited February 07, 2000).]
Let me start by saying that I agree with much of what you say. You are exactly right - sure - it would be nice if we could all walk around wearing whatever we want and not worry about people making assumptions - but fact remains is that this is not a perfect world (or perfect as we may define it) and it IS survival of the fittest - and even animals learn how to camouflage themselves... or if it is not learned behavior then evolution dictates that adaptation for the survival of their species.
I am a big time advocate of dressing to blend in rather than stick out - there is a time and a place for everything. The street is not the place to show your stuff.
On the other side of this subject though - I hear what you are saying about awareness being part of the problem. What I maintain however is that some abused women are incapable, through conditioning, brainwashing, societal mindset or programming or whatEVER, of being aware of these situations. My objection is that people who have not been involved intimately in an abusive situation, (either their loved ones or themselves) can not see outside their clearer perspective. The abused woman's perspective is clouded by all the above and more, and it is not fair to assume that she is weak or unwilling to make a change - circumstances often interfere with that choice. A very strong and capable woman I worked with married a guy who was everyone's dream. And he was, for about the first 6 or 7 years. Then he started using, because of their foundation of love and respect, she stuck with him, trying to help him out of the habit - only leaving when the abuse turned toward their children. Sadly, the day she got a restraining order and she had moved out of the house, he broke into her new residence with a .357 and blew his brains out all over her and almost took her with him. There is NO way she could have been aware of this situation developing when she married him. There is NO way her family or friends could have predicted it either. After building a life together she was loathe to abandon all they had built, but had enough sense and strength to get out when it went too far. But it still wasn't good enough.
This is just one situation - there are many many more. My point in my initial post is that there is often more than meets the eye in an abusive situation. To assume that the abused person is weak, shallow or unaware is easy enough when you are all the way outside the situation - once digging a little deeper there are many things that can come to light. All we can do is continue to offer support to those who may be in that situation, and try to be less judgemental.
Peace,
Lori
[This message has been edited by Lori (edited February 07, 2000).]
She deserved it
Tony is right on target!
We all see the world through our own peculiar filters, and we can become extremely righteous about other people’s expected behavior…. “ You can’t talk to me that way! How dare you! You can’t hit me, I am a woman! You construction guys have no right to be leering at my miniskirted daughter “ etc.!
It is so easy to believe that we command so much presence in our own little world that others surely must take notice and behave in accordance with our belief systems!
Those are the deadliest of assumptions!
What gets lots of women in trouble, and men as well, is the pervasive denial that, although our next door neighbor, karate brother, golfing buddy or fellow church member, is a member of the same human race, he may not really share any of the same moral values that we hold!
Look at all the sexual assaults and abuse of powers by so many martial arts instructors, especially the ones that betrayed the trust of children in their care, custody, and control!
These seemingly “nice people” can suddenly turn on us in so many different ways that can defy rational explanation! All because they interpreted verbal and body language signals in accordance with their own “righteous” perceptions, or because we have unwittingly provided them with fodder for their perversions!
Then the bad seeds among us have no qualms about actions in rape, robbery, murder, and other personal trespass in an understanding of violence very foreign to us, and not deterred very easily by any of society’s rules unless the cost to them appears to be very prohibitive!
Any of these characters can suddenly appear out of a crowd anywhere, any time much to our surprise to finding them where they “should not belong”!
What is difficult to understand is that these people are not easily frightened by any of our “puny” actions or attempts to reason, there will be no mercy, you will get no breaks!
Such is the nature of the enemy lurking in the shadows!
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited February 09, 2000).]
We all see the world through our own peculiar filters, and we can become extremely righteous about other people’s expected behavior…. “ You can’t talk to me that way! How dare you! You can’t hit me, I am a woman! You construction guys have no right to be leering at my miniskirted daughter “ etc.!
It is so easy to believe that we command so much presence in our own little world that others surely must take notice and behave in accordance with our belief systems!
Those are the deadliest of assumptions!
What gets lots of women in trouble, and men as well, is the pervasive denial that, although our next door neighbor, karate brother, golfing buddy or fellow church member, is a member of the same human race, he may not really share any of the same moral values that we hold!
Look at all the sexual assaults and abuse of powers by so many martial arts instructors, especially the ones that betrayed the trust of children in their care, custody, and control!
These seemingly “nice people” can suddenly turn on us in so many different ways that can defy rational explanation! All because they interpreted verbal and body language signals in accordance with their own “righteous” perceptions, or because we have unwittingly provided them with fodder for their perversions!
Then the bad seeds among us have no qualms about actions in rape, robbery, murder, and other personal trespass in an understanding of violence very foreign to us, and not deterred very easily by any of society’s rules unless the cost to them appears to be very prohibitive!
Any of these characters can suddenly appear out of a crowd anywhere, any time much to our surprise to finding them where they “should not belong”!
What is difficult to understand is that these people are not easily frightened by any of our “puny” actions or attempts to reason, there will be no mercy, you will get no breaks!
Such is the nature of the enemy lurking in the shadows!
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited February 09, 2000).]
She deserved it
Ken,
You raise some good points and I thank you for giving us the opportunity to elucidate!
<blockquote> but I cannot raise them in the dark world some of you live in.</blockquote>
The message here, as Tony points out, is that in this life there is avoiding, through intelligent programming, and then there is living in fear!
Successful walking through life without much hassle has always boiled down to a matter of body language, strategic movement, and mental telepathy, so to speak! We must develop an unconscious “condition yellow” awareness pattern which then becomes fully autonomic bearing no relationship whatsoever to paranoia.
We possessed these survival instincts as we began to evolve from a simplistic hunter-gatherer tribal society!
It is argued that modern “civilization” has resulted in making us partially “brain dead” in difficulty of acceptance of potential threats on a personal, possibly deadly level!
But it is fair to say that most of us in today’s world “walk and talk” in condition white, i.e., overly relaxed state, hardly aware of surroundings and of what we are saying that might be misconstrued!
In my work as an investigator of “emotional and physical injuries” resultant from sexual assault, sexual harassment, rape, domestic fights, pool room/sports bar brawls, violence in the workplace etc., most victims have a real problem coming to terms with what they may have done or said, or sent signals for, in trying to figure out what the violence trigger was! Some are quite befuddled by it all!
Some people just have a knack of volunteering to be “victim for a day”!
Anybody who studies the martial arts is doing so to become more proficient at self preservation, although a good portion of us will deny even this truth about ourselves!
“Self-defense” is not a bunch of movements; it is a heightened mental state primarily rooted in “preparedness”
Which manifests itself in alertness that the possibility of A THREAT does exist, as opposed to PARANOIA, where the possibility of a threat NEVER DOES EXIST!
Oh, and you are right! If my daughter were ever in some trouble and someone said to me “ she asked for it,”
There would be some of the blackest deadliest rage to deal with!
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited February 10, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited February 10, 2000).]
You raise some good points and I thank you for giving us the opportunity to elucidate!
<blockquote> but I cannot raise them in the dark world some of you live in.</blockquote>
The message here, as Tony points out, is that in this life there is avoiding, through intelligent programming, and then there is living in fear!
Successful walking through life without much hassle has always boiled down to a matter of body language, strategic movement, and mental telepathy, so to speak! We must develop an unconscious “condition yellow” awareness pattern which then becomes fully autonomic bearing no relationship whatsoever to paranoia.
We possessed these survival instincts as we began to evolve from a simplistic hunter-gatherer tribal society!
It is argued that modern “civilization” has resulted in making us partially “brain dead” in difficulty of acceptance of potential threats on a personal, possibly deadly level!
But it is fair to say that most of us in today’s world “walk and talk” in condition white, i.e., overly relaxed state, hardly aware of surroundings and of what we are saying that might be misconstrued!
In my work as an investigator of “emotional and physical injuries” resultant from sexual assault, sexual harassment, rape, domestic fights, pool room/sports bar brawls, violence in the workplace etc., most victims have a real problem coming to terms with what they may have done or said, or sent signals for, in trying to figure out what the violence trigger was! Some are quite befuddled by it all!
Some people just have a knack of volunteering to be “victim for a day”!
Anybody who studies the martial arts is doing so to become more proficient at self preservation, although a good portion of us will deny even this truth about ourselves!
“Self-defense” is not a bunch of movements; it is a heightened mental state primarily rooted in “preparedness”
Which manifests itself in alertness that the possibility of A THREAT does exist, as opposed to PARANOIA, where the possibility of a threat NEVER DOES EXIST!
Oh, and you are right! If my daughter were ever in some trouble and someone said to me “ she asked for it,”
There would be some of the blackest deadliest rage to deal with!
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited February 10, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited February 10, 2000).]
She deserved it
Hmm... this is starting to heat up a bit. Good! There are some important points that need to be brought out! Let's see if I can elucidate:
(Geez - I'm starting to sound like Bill sensei - scary scary scary...)
First: On the "choice" to be a victim
Yes - I am in full agreement - some people do walk through life as professional victims. I've seen it. You've seen it. And you just want to shake them and say "WAKE UP AND GET WITH IT!" As Tony mentions - we sometimes get the feeling that they need to realize that they are "weak and pathetic" and need to "bottom out" before they can pick themselves up and start all over again. Works with junkies of all sorts: alcohol, drugs, abuse. Yes, there are abuse junkies.
BUT all abuse is NOT part of a pattern of weakness. Tell that to the 14 year old who has been raped weekly by her kindly uncle every week since she was 2 years old. She needs to WAKE UP and admit she is weak and pathetic? GET REAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The case becomes much more debatable in adult situations. Yes, there are professional victims. I've stated that clearly I hope. But others are NOT and may not have the background necessary to summon the intestinal fortitude to extract themselves. No, you cannot invest all of your time in victims (unless you have chosen that very worthy calling in life) but you MUST realize that not all people in an abusive situation are there by choice. And not all of these victims have the clarity of perspective, will power, and or background allowing then to realize they are a worthwhile person. Evolution and survival of the fittest aside - I still think it is hard for a 2 year old to develop these strengths without the proper education. I'm not saying that anyone believes a 2 year old asks for it - but as an educator I know that every 2 year old is not given the same opportunity to grow and realize their potential to extract themselves from abusive situations.
Second: Subliminal Signals
We send these without realizing - I agree with Van Sensei. As a teacher in the fields of communication - both cyber and academic - there are specific aspects to EVERY communication. First, the message. Can be intentional or not. This message now requires a sender, and a receiver. The problem comes in where both the sender and the receiver have their own personal "filters" or protocols that are defined by who they are, their environment, their morality, their mood, and maybe even what they ate (or drank) for lunch. These filters will distort the purity of the message %100 of the time. You have no choice. What you say and do will always be colored by your filter, and distorted by the filter of the receiving party. The receiving party may very well be someone you did not intend the message to be received by as well! For when we communicate - and we do so in so many ways (body language, dress, attitude, emotion, style, etc. much more than words!) the message is often intercepted by many many more people than we ever thought were listening. Case in point - we have a set of how many regular posters on these forums. Yet the lurkers or "hits" on these pages are widely disproportionate - many many more people read than post. Also, many people are getting messages from you that you never even knew you sent. Look at serial killers that only go after a certain "type" like Ted Bundy I believe. Much better to blend in - never stick out if you can help it. As I mentioned - there is a time and a place. The street is not the place to stick out.
Third: Living in fear vs. paranoia
No one says it better here than Gavin DeBecker. No, we do not want to walk through life jumping at every shadow, and dressing our daughters in sackcloth and ashes, locking them in convents. I for one refuse to live in a world where that is necessary. BUT we need to develop a plan, as Tony states eloquently - for surviving in a world that is less than perfect. Sure, my daughter has perhaps more exposure to these issues given my involvement in martial arts, self-defense issues, and these forums. But she is not walking around paranoid. She is "aware" and watches herself - as much as her teenage hormone "filters" allow her. As her mother I try to pick up the slack but know I'll never be able to cover it all. And on the subject of defending her, just as Ken-san and Van Sensei both state very clearly, and I second - ANYone who says she asked for it will have some serious problems...
But back to paranoia vs. fear - rather than quote entire chapters from Gift of Fear - I highly recommend that you pick up a copy and give it a read Ken-san. An expertly written book that explores this very concept. Must read for any female I am responsible for in any way. I've recommended it to so many people I should get a commission. But you will find that DeBecker clarifies the difference very well. Fear is to be recognized as a gift, and a survival signal. It does not mean we need to fear every shadow - mistrust every human being. In fact, there are many humans we should trust more. DeBecker outlines many methods for doing so. On the same lines, his latest: Protecting the Gift deals specifically with the problem of keeping our children safe. You can find a link to a webpage where you can buy this book and others below my signature at the bottom of this post.
Last: The Law
Tony's right - just because the law is written does not mean that it will protect you. If it is not enforced - forgetaboutit. And besides that - the law itself does nothing and is often beaten by an expensive trial lawyer. We are responsible first for our own actions, and responsible for our own safety and that of our children. We would not knowingly walk into a den of starving tigers with no weapons and/or way of defending ourselves. Face it - the world is full of predators. We can choose to train to fight the tigers, arm ourselves, or even better, avoid the den completely. Unfortunately, a few tigers are out wandering loose. So we need to be aware enough to recognize their presence, and signals of their proximity. And as a last resort, decide within our own hearts, just how far and how determined our mindset will be as to fighting to protect life, limb and honor. Are we willing to die or kill once this line is crossed? This is a personal choice, but the time to make it is BEFORE the tiger springs. Do it.
------------------
Peace,
Lori
email: <A HREF="mailto:lori_san@hotmail.com">lori_san@hotmail.com</A>
Forum Recommended/Reviewed Books
website: www.mindspring.com/~uechi-ryu
(Geez - I'm starting to sound like Bill sensei - scary scary scary...)
First: On the "choice" to be a victim
Yes - I am in full agreement - some people do walk through life as professional victims. I've seen it. You've seen it. And you just want to shake them and say "WAKE UP AND GET WITH IT!" As Tony mentions - we sometimes get the feeling that they need to realize that they are "weak and pathetic" and need to "bottom out" before they can pick themselves up and start all over again. Works with junkies of all sorts: alcohol, drugs, abuse. Yes, there are abuse junkies.
BUT all abuse is NOT part of a pattern of weakness. Tell that to the 14 year old who has been raped weekly by her kindly uncle every week since she was 2 years old. She needs to WAKE UP and admit she is weak and pathetic? GET REAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The case becomes much more debatable in adult situations. Yes, there are professional victims. I've stated that clearly I hope. But others are NOT and may not have the background necessary to summon the intestinal fortitude to extract themselves. No, you cannot invest all of your time in victims (unless you have chosen that very worthy calling in life) but you MUST realize that not all people in an abusive situation are there by choice. And not all of these victims have the clarity of perspective, will power, and or background allowing then to realize they are a worthwhile person. Evolution and survival of the fittest aside - I still think it is hard for a 2 year old to develop these strengths without the proper education. I'm not saying that anyone believes a 2 year old asks for it - but as an educator I know that every 2 year old is not given the same opportunity to grow and realize their potential to extract themselves from abusive situations.
Second: Subliminal Signals
We send these without realizing - I agree with Van Sensei. As a teacher in the fields of communication - both cyber and academic - there are specific aspects to EVERY communication. First, the message. Can be intentional or not. This message now requires a sender, and a receiver. The problem comes in where both the sender and the receiver have their own personal "filters" or protocols that are defined by who they are, their environment, their morality, their mood, and maybe even what they ate (or drank) for lunch. These filters will distort the purity of the message %100 of the time. You have no choice. What you say and do will always be colored by your filter, and distorted by the filter of the receiving party. The receiving party may very well be someone you did not intend the message to be received by as well! For when we communicate - and we do so in so many ways (body language, dress, attitude, emotion, style, etc. much more than words!) the message is often intercepted by many many more people than we ever thought were listening. Case in point - we have a set of how many regular posters on these forums. Yet the lurkers or "hits" on these pages are widely disproportionate - many many more people read than post. Also, many people are getting messages from you that you never even knew you sent. Look at serial killers that only go after a certain "type" like Ted Bundy I believe. Much better to blend in - never stick out if you can help it. As I mentioned - there is a time and a place. The street is not the place to stick out.
Third: Living in fear vs. paranoia
No one says it better here than Gavin DeBecker. No, we do not want to walk through life jumping at every shadow, and dressing our daughters in sackcloth and ashes, locking them in convents. I for one refuse to live in a world where that is necessary. BUT we need to develop a plan, as Tony states eloquently - for surviving in a world that is less than perfect. Sure, my daughter has perhaps more exposure to these issues given my involvement in martial arts, self-defense issues, and these forums. But she is not walking around paranoid. She is "aware" and watches herself - as much as her teenage hormone "filters" allow her. As her mother I try to pick up the slack but know I'll never be able to cover it all. And on the subject of defending her, just as Ken-san and Van Sensei both state very clearly, and I second - ANYone who says she asked for it will have some serious problems...
But back to paranoia vs. fear - rather than quote entire chapters from Gift of Fear - I highly recommend that you pick up a copy and give it a read Ken-san. An expertly written book that explores this very concept. Must read for any female I am responsible for in any way. I've recommended it to so many people I should get a commission. But you will find that DeBecker clarifies the difference very well. Fear is to be recognized as a gift, and a survival signal. It does not mean we need to fear every shadow - mistrust every human being. In fact, there are many humans we should trust more. DeBecker outlines many methods for doing so. On the same lines, his latest: Protecting the Gift deals specifically with the problem of keeping our children safe. You can find a link to a webpage where you can buy this book and others below my signature at the bottom of this post.
Last: The Law
Tony's right - just because the law is written does not mean that it will protect you. If it is not enforced - forgetaboutit. And besides that - the law itself does nothing and is often beaten by an expensive trial lawyer. We are responsible first for our own actions, and responsible for our own safety and that of our children. We would not knowingly walk into a den of starving tigers with no weapons and/or way of defending ourselves. Face it - the world is full of predators. We can choose to train to fight the tigers, arm ourselves, or even better, avoid the den completely. Unfortunately, a few tigers are out wandering loose. So we need to be aware enough to recognize their presence, and signals of their proximity. And as a last resort, decide within our own hearts, just how far and how determined our mindset will be as to fighting to protect life, limb and honor. Are we willing to die or kill once this line is crossed? This is a personal choice, but the time to make it is BEFORE the tiger springs. Do it.
------------------
Peace,
Lori
email: <A HREF="mailto:lori_san@hotmail.com">lori_san@hotmail.com</A>
Forum Recommended/Reviewed Books
website: www.mindspring.com/~uechi-ryu
She deserved it
Tony-san,
Just saw your post when mine got up there - and wanted to state that I am clear that you are aware of the difference - I was back when this conversation began - I elaborated in my last post not for your benefit but for the sake of the topic. Anyone who thinks a kid asks for it is beneath contempt and not worthy of being my friend!
If we are dealing with one specific group of professional victims - I am in agreement with almost all you say - but my problem is with making generalizations... that get's my ire up - and is what started this thread.
Peace,
Lori
Just saw your post when mine got up there - and wanted to state that I am clear that you are aware of the difference - I was back when this conversation began - I elaborated in my last post not for your benefit but for the sake of the topic. Anyone who thinks a kid asks for it is beneath contempt and not worthy of being my friend!
If we are dealing with one specific group of professional victims - I am in agreement with almost all you say - but my problem is with making generalizations... that get's my ire up - and is what started this thread.Peace,
Lori
She deserved it
Tony-san,
True enough. And sometimes the only way to show someone you really care is to walk away and let them know you are no longer participating in their self-destructive behaviour. In the end - decisions must be made from within - none of us can convince another of truth - they must find it for themselves.
Peace,
Lori
True enough. And sometimes the only way to show someone you really care is to walk away and let them know you are no longer participating in their self-destructive behaviour. In the end - decisions must be made from within - none of us can convince another of truth - they must find it for themselves.
Peace,
Lori
She deserved it
I have three daughters that I try to teach to be aware of the dangers that exist in this world. Two of my daughters practice Uechi and while talking to my youngest (almost 8) the other night about school yard antics, she stated that she would simply knock out anyone who started trouble with her. I thought right away of the Uechi forms that I often read and tried to explan to her how real situations can turn peole to jell. After speaking with her and reading this thread I thought of my three pretty girls and what would happen if they ever wond up in a bad situation. I teach my girls to becareful in life, but I can not raise them in the dark world some of you live in. There is plenty to be careful out there and yes we have to watch our backs but lets not look for evil at every turn. I must also say that if any of my girls ever found them selves in a bad situation and someone said they asked for it, I would lose it big time.
-
Shelly King
She deserved it
Well, I’ve been lurking on this one and “debating” this topic privately with Tony-san…but since he is insisting I remove myself from the shadows, I guess I will respond.
I was hoping that I would be able to find a previous post of mine where I expressed my concern over the use of the word “victim” but was unable to locate it in the archives. Being a victim is a conscience choice made by the individual. That does not mean that someone choices to be the recipient of a violent or abusive act. It simply means that an individual makes a decision as to how they will live their lives. It is not necessary to be the recipient of an attack/abuse to become a victim, just as every recipient of an attack/abuse is not a victim. Now, here is where Tony and I agree, there are some people who are happy being miserable and yes these people are victims by their own choice and you really can’t do anything for them. However I agree with Lori, generalizations are dangerous and risky.
Now for where Tony and I began to diverge from a friendly discussion to a heated disagreement is over the use of the word “fault”. In the scenario I posed to Tony, he was able to find several reasons why what happened was the fault of the recipient and could have been avoided. In the process, he allowed himself to make certain assumptions about morals, ethics, and life style without any evidence other than what I stated, which I might add included nothing to indicate that his assumptions were valid. If there is a MVP award for Monday morning quarterback…our friend Tony deserves it
. So where does this leave us…could it be denial. Guess what guys, we can train the full length of the force continium spectrum from empty hand to edged weapons to guns. We can train with the mindset and conditioning that we strive for. We can spend every available moment reading all the available literature and attend every available seminar. We can look over our shoulder and live our lives in a state of vigilence, always aware and prepared. But guess what, we are only human. We cannot be 100% prepared 100% of the time. There is always someone out there who’s bigger, stronger, faster, meaner, and better prepared than us. We can establish a non-prey attitude to dissuade those criminals not looking for a fight but in turn entice those criminals looking for a challenge. The honest truth is that the only thing we are really doing is improving our odds, we are not guaranteeing victory.
I don’t think I know a single woman who believes the law is going to protect them.
------------------
Shelly
I was hoping that I would be able to find a previous post of mine where I expressed my concern over the use of the word “victim” but was unable to locate it in the archives. Being a victim is a conscience choice made by the individual. That does not mean that someone choices to be the recipient of a violent or abusive act. It simply means that an individual makes a decision as to how they will live their lives. It is not necessary to be the recipient of an attack/abuse to become a victim, just as every recipient of an attack/abuse is not a victim. Now, here is where Tony and I agree, there are some people who are happy being miserable and yes these people are victims by their own choice and you really can’t do anything for them. However I agree with Lori, generalizations are dangerous and risky.
Now for where Tony and I began to diverge from a friendly discussion to a heated disagreement is over the use of the word “fault”. In the scenario I posed to Tony, he was able to find several reasons why what happened was the fault of the recipient and could have been avoided. In the process, he allowed himself to make certain assumptions about morals, ethics, and life style without any evidence other than what I stated, which I might add included nothing to indicate that his assumptions were valid. If there is a MVP award for Monday morning quarterback…our friend Tony deserves it
. So where does this leave us…could it be denial. Guess what guys, we can train the full length of the force continium spectrum from empty hand to edged weapons to guns. We can train with the mindset and conditioning that we strive for. We can spend every available moment reading all the available literature and attend every available seminar. We can look over our shoulder and live our lives in a state of vigilence, always aware and prepared. But guess what, we are only human. We cannot be 100% prepared 100% of the time. There is always someone out there who’s bigger, stronger, faster, meaner, and better prepared than us. We can establish a non-prey attitude to dissuade those criminals not looking for a fight but in turn entice those criminals looking for a challenge. The honest truth is that the only thing we are really doing is improving our odds, we are not guaranteeing victory.I don’t think I know a single woman who believes the law is going to protect them.
------------------
Shelly
-
Shelly King
She deserved it
Tony
If you remembered correctly I never said it was a lousy neighborhood and that she lived only a few blocks away. yes, I did say she was coming home from a party, but as far as you know, it could have been a family dinner or a birthday party. The point was that you immediately assumed she was under the influence of alcohol and drugs. You made judgements regaurding her intelligence and life style with no facts other than a single event in her life. As far as you know, it could have been some creep who had been stalking her for days who finally saw an opportunity, an ex-boyfriend, or a random thug. People always wonder why more women don't come forward and file criminal charges...hell, they've already gone through probably the worst thing anyone can imagine to then know they have to put up with complete strangers making judgements about how they live their life and telling them what they should have done differently. I'm sorry Tony, I still think believing you can protect yourself so fully that nothing bad will ever happen is the worst form of denial.
------------------
Shelly
If you remembered correctly I never said it was a lousy neighborhood and that she lived only a few blocks away. yes, I did say she was coming home from a party, but as far as you know, it could have been a family dinner or a birthday party. The point was that you immediately assumed she was under the influence of alcohol and drugs. You made judgements regaurding her intelligence and life style with no facts other than a single event in her life. As far as you know, it could have been some creep who had been stalking her for days who finally saw an opportunity, an ex-boyfriend, or a random thug. People always wonder why more women don't come forward and file criminal charges...hell, they've already gone through probably the worst thing anyone can imagine to then know they have to put up with complete strangers making judgements about how they live their life and telling them what they should have done differently. I'm sorry Tony, I still think believing you can protect yourself so fully that nothing bad will ever happen is the worst form of denial.
------------------
Shelly
-
Shelly King
She deserved it
Tony,
I believe I used the word "iffy" to describe the neighborhood. A very relative term. No it wasn't an inkblot test for you. You are hardly the only person who thinks like this. It was merely to demonstrate that some people (unfortunatly most) will find any reason to prove that the attacked individual should have done something differently to reinforce in their own mind that this kind of thing will not happen to them or to someone they care about because they wouldn't make the same mistakes.
So, we will have to agree to disagree. Of course, I'm interested in YOU. I wouldn't have asked for your opinion otherwise.
------------------
Shelly
I believe I used the word "iffy" to describe the neighborhood. A very relative term. No it wasn't an inkblot test for you. You are hardly the only person who thinks like this. It was merely to demonstrate that some people (unfortunatly most) will find any reason to prove that the attacked individual should have done something differently to reinforce in their own mind that this kind of thing will not happen to them or to someone they care about because they wouldn't make the same mistakes.
So, we will have to agree to disagree. Of course, I'm interested in YOU. I wouldn't have asked for your opinion otherwise.
------------------
Shelly
She deserved it
At the risk of being labeled a chauvinist, stereotypist and oversimplifier, let me stomp in where angels would fear to tread....
What I am seeing here between Shelly-chan and Anthony-san is a display of the differences in acculturization of the way men and women generally (N.B. Warning! I damned well am aware that this is not true for every man nor for every woman!) think and communicate in this culture.
Men tend to be task or solution oriented. Anthony was looking for things that the women in question could have done differently (e.g., called a taxi).
Women tend to be relationship oriented. It appears to me that how the women in question is viewed by others is what is more important to Shelly, rather than specific critiques of her actions which could be construed as attacks upon her actions or lack thereof (e.g., blaming her and/or making negative assumptions).
And as they are not persuing the same goals in the communication, they have to agree to disagree.
For more and better analysis, ask Suzette! Please!
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited February 11, 2000).]
What I am seeing here between Shelly-chan and Anthony-san is a display of the differences in acculturization of the way men and women generally (N.B. Warning! I damned well am aware that this is not true for every man nor for every woman!) think and communicate in this culture.
Men tend to be task or solution oriented. Anthony was looking for things that the women in question could have done differently (e.g., called a taxi).
Women tend to be relationship oriented. It appears to me that how the women in question is viewed by others is what is more important to Shelly, rather than specific critiques of her actions which could be construed as attacks upon her actions or lack thereof (e.g., blaming her and/or making negative assumptions).
And as they are not persuing the same goals in the communication, they have to agree to disagree.
For more and better analysis, ask Suzette! Please!
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited February 11, 2000).]
-
Shelly King
She deserved it
Well student
You couldn't have nailed that one any better. Thanks for the clear up.
------------------
Shelly
You couldn't have nailed that one any better. Thanks for the clear up.
------------------
Shelly
She deserved it
What I posted was pure Suzette Hayden Elgin, filtered/misinterpreted through me. Now you see some of why I'm thrilled to have her join the Forum in the Verbal Self Defense threads. She's very good at what she does.
student
Okay: the redfaced smilie makes no sense. It was supposed to be a winking smilie and I can't seem to erase it!
[This message has been edited by student (edited February 11, 2000).]
student
Okay: the redfaced smilie makes no sense. It was supposed to be a winking smilie and I can't seem to erase it!
[This message has been edited by student (edited February 11, 2000).]
