This is something that bothers me. It takes women at LEAST twice as long to learn how to hit in class.
I've thought about women I've seen at other trainings and many of them, while having pretty form, do not have their bodies behind their strikes.
I'm pretty sure that most of their "punches" wouldn't do much damage to anyone larger than they are. And, since women are likely to be attacked by someone larger then it makes sense that somebody should make sure the each and every women who comes on a dojo floor starts to learn to generate power in their training.
Now power, in my world, happens because of good body mechanics, using the whole body to strike, and keeping the shoulder down and elbows close to the body.
Even in going to the FAST defense thing it was painfully obvious that boys & men with no training knew how to hit something and women with no training had no idea.
Who teaches men and boys how to hit? Why are women left out of this lesson?
Dana
Why women can't hit hard
Moderator: Available
Why women can't hit hard
Dana,
Good topic. However I've worked with some very stong men that also couldn't hit. Most everyone has enough power to do damage but lack of technique and proper focus hampers their generation of power.
On the other hand most females have superior kicking technique much quicker than males.
I agree with you that building solid mechanics is key to power generation. I also feel that identifing you power techniques and working the few and powerful will help us all deliver our power techiques when the sh** hit the fan.
There all in our Uechi kata. More full contact scenarios with the bulletman has helped me find the sweet power techniques.
Alan
Good topic. However I've worked with some very stong men that also couldn't hit. Most everyone has enough power to do damage but lack of technique and proper focus hampers their generation of power.
On the other hand most females have superior kicking technique much quicker than males.
I agree with you that building solid mechanics is key to power generation. I also feel that identifing you power techniques and working the few and powerful will help us all deliver our power techiques when the sh** hit the fan.
There all in our Uechi kata. More full contact scenarios with the bulletman has helped me find the sweet power techniques.
Alan
Why women can't hit hard
I'd like to offer a theory on Dana's ponderings about why it takes women twice* as long to hit, as compared to guys. My theory: sports. From what I've seen, most guys have grown up playing sports. Most women I know haven't. I know there are exceptions, but generally that's what I've found.
When you play baseball/softball you're taught to turn hips into your swing when you're at bat. When you're throwing a long ball from the outfield, you have to have proper technique to put some power behind it or it's not going very far. When I started karate, I naturally put my body behind my punch because that's what I was I had been doing all those years when I played softball, tennis, etc. I think my early activities gave me a headstart when I first started karate.
Some of the most powerful kicks I've seen have come from gals who've studied dance for a long time (especially ballet) or other sports like soccer and track and field.
When you play baseball/softball you're taught to turn hips into your swing when you're at bat. When you're throwing a long ball from the outfield, you have to have proper technique to put some power behind it or it's not going very far. When I started karate, I naturally put my body behind my punch because that's what I was I had been doing all those years when I played softball, tennis, etc. I think my early activities gave me a headstart when I first started karate.
Some of the most powerful kicks I've seen have come from gals who've studied dance for a long time (especially ballet) or other sports like soccer and track and field.
Why women can't hit hard
Dana-
Great topic, as always.
I don't have much of a theory. The solution that I use is to explain as clearly and deeply as possible the physics and mechanics of power generation and have them work it extensively on the heavy bag.
Then we run into another issue. I have some women students with great form and power who can't apply the same princples against an attacker. Punching air or heavy bag, they're great. Put someone in the Highgear suit and it turns into pitty-pat. The Highgear suit has been a big tool for turning this around, though.
Rory
Great topic, as always.
I don't have much of a theory. The solution that I use is to explain as clearly and deeply as possible the physics and mechanics of power generation and have them work it extensively on the heavy bag.
Then we run into another issue. I have some women students with great form and power who can't apply the same princples against an attacker. Punching air or heavy bag, they're great. Put someone in the Highgear suit and it turns into pitty-pat. The Highgear suit has been a big tool for turning this around, though.
Rory
Why women can't hit hard
hi all.
just wanted to ad my 2 cents. i have taught kick boxing to women.( no not tae-bo) i found that women can learn the machanics of power punching just as fast as men. however you have to hit something. i personaly like focus mits and the heavy bag. women however have a weaker structure in thier wrist that will limit them from hitting hard. so you need to use hand wraps. the wrist needs time to develop strength.
ok now for my half baked theory........
i have been told that the female elbow joint is rotated at a 7% angle more then a male elbow joint. (i.e. as the hand hangs by your side the male thumb points inward toward the body, a females thumb points more outward.) thus as a punch is thrown the elbows rotation and alignment is off. only slightly off but enough to make a weeker punch. learn the correct alignment and you got yourself a PUNCH!!
ok so i might need Mr.Glassheen's oppinion on the female/male elbow thing but i do know that the lack of power is from the alignment as the punch is thrown. i havent seen a women who cant learn power punching yet
hoshin
~~~~~~
just wanted to ad my 2 cents. i have taught kick boxing to women.( no not tae-bo) i found that women can learn the machanics of power punching just as fast as men. however you have to hit something. i personaly like focus mits and the heavy bag. women however have a weaker structure in thier wrist that will limit them from hitting hard. so you need to use hand wraps. the wrist needs time to develop strength.
ok now for my half baked theory........
i have been told that the female elbow joint is rotated at a 7% angle more then a male elbow joint. (i.e. as the hand hangs by your side the male thumb points inward toward the body, a females thumb points more outward.) thus as a punch is thrown the elbows rotation and alignment is off. only slightly off but enough to make a weeker punch. learn the correct alignment and you got yourself a PUNCH!!
ok so i might need Mr.Glassheen's oppinion on the female/male elbow thing but i do know that the lack of power is from the alignment as the punch is thrown. i havent seen a women who cant learn power punching yet
hoshin
~~~~~~
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Why women can't hit hard
Hi, Dana
I stopped by to drag you into another topic, and saw this one. Good inputs so far.
I think - as suggested above in various posts - that it's a bit of nature AND nurture.
It's no different than the old "throws like a girl" stereotype. In many ways, it's true. However I grew up in a family with six sisters, and 4 of them could play some kick-a** softball. We all grew up in a baseball house because of my father's obsession with The Red Sox and his own college pitching career. So there you have the nurture end of things.
But nature being what it is, testosterone is known to affect the musculature of the upper torso. Mechanically women can do a punch just as well as a man. In some ways they are better because of the general increase in experience with using the lower body, but this only happens once a woman understand the basic mechanics. (Most men could use some help on that account) When it comes to the crack on the end of the whip - the upper body component - well the men have the statistical edge.
I think the thing to do is not to focus on the fact that there is any inferiority, but rather - as I do - understand and work with the unique nature of the female anatomy. I am constantly kidding individual women in class about their impressive upper-body strength whenever trying to make a point about body mechanics. The message usually sinks in pretty quickly - learn to use what you have and stop trying to hack through things with strength like a typical male.
BTW, for those that don't know, Dana can hit like the best of them. With her, it's mechanics - pure and simple. One of my best "pure punchers" was a woman - Maria Olivas. It was 50% attitude (she was a diminutive 5 foot three), and 50% a lifetime of playing sports with the guys. I used to love the way she'd show the guys up whenever I pulled the hitting shield out - even though she couldn't bench much more than about 80 pounds. It sent an important message to their fragile egos - one that only someone like Maria could deliver.
- Bill
I stopped by to drag you into another topic, and saw this one. Good inputs so far.
I think - as suggested above in various posts - that it's a bit of nature AND nurture.
It's no different than the old "throws like a girl" stereotype. In many ways, it's true. However I grew up in a family with six sisters, and 4 of them could play some kick-a** softball. We all grew up in a baseball house because of my father's obsession with The Red Sox and his own college pitching career. So there you have the nurture end of things.
But nature being what it is, testosterone is known to affect the musculature of the upper torso. Mechanically women can do a punch just as well as a man. In some ways they are better because of the general increase in experience with using the lower body, but this only happens once a woman understand the basic mechanics. (Most men could use some help on that account) When it comes to the crack on the end of the whip - the upper body component - well the men have the statistical edge.
I think the thing to do is not to focus on the fact that there is any inferiority, but rather - as I do - understand and work with the unique nature of the female anatomy. I am constantly kidding individual women in class about their impressive upper-body strength whenever trying to make a point about body mechanics. The message usually sinks in pretty quickly - learn to use what you have and stop trying to hack through things with strength like a typical male.
BTW, for those that don't know, Dana can hit like the best of them. With her, it's mechanics - pure and simple. One of my best "pure punchers" was a woman - Maria Olivas. It was 50% attitude (she was a diminutive 5 foot three), and 50% a lifetime of playing sports with the guys. I used to love the way she'd show the guys up whenever I pulled the hitting shield out - even though she couldn't bench much more than about 80 pounds. It sent an important message to their fragile egos - one that only someone like Maria could deliver.
- Bill
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Why women can't hit hard
Dana
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Looking at the glass half full - you're going to learn a lot more by watching a successful woman than you are by watching a successful man. Or… advanced women on average may be better at teaching technical aspects of technique (IMHO).
- Bill
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Given what I wrote above, the answer to the problem is clear. It takes women longer (on average) because they must learn to be technically correct, or they don't get a result. (Some) men can get an adequate result via upper-body strength without having learned proper (ideal) mechanics.This is something that bothers me. It takes women at LEAST twice as long to learn how to hit in class.
Looking at the glass half full - you're going to learn a lot more by watching a successful woman than you are by watching a successful man. Or… advanced women on average may be better at teaching technical aspects of technique (IMHO).
- Bill
Why women can't hit hard
Greetings,
I am new but I did have a question I wanted to ask in relation to this very pertinent topic.
I am a woman with a less than satisfactory punch. (I know I have a lot of work to do. Drills, drills, drills....) One thing I did discover is that my open hand strikes are quite powerful. Much to my dismay as I accidently hurt a fellow student a couple of years ago.
To be honest, he was being a supreme jerk to me and would not get out of my face even after I asked him nicely many times and he would not let me walk away. He likes to intimidate women to discourage them from participating. I went to push him away, but it ended up being more like a strike to the sternum. I lifted the guy about six inches off of his feet (no kidding!)and saw his body shake violently for at least 30 seconds afterwards. Sifu gave me the EVIL eye at first but after we saw the jerk was going to be okay, he (Sifu) kind of smiled at me. I think he secretly wanted to do the same thing to the jerk himself.
It scared the heck out of me and I have avoided sparring with or striking anyone since. I know I am going to have to start again but I am really worried that I may hurt someone. As a therapist I once worked with a man who had his ribcage collasped during a Muay Tai (sp?) tournament. (Luckily, the ribs had flexed at the cartilage so they were only dislocated, not broken.) I certainly do not want to be the cause of such damage to another unless I am caught in a dangerous situation.
When I practice against a heavy bag my punches barely move it but when I do open palm strikes I can make it swing violently. Does anyone know why this is?
Sunwolf
Still a very new student
[This message has been edited by Sunwolf (edited July 15, 2002).]
I am new but I did have a question I wanted to ask in relation to this very pertinent topic.
I am a woman with a less than satisfactory punch. (I know I have a lot of work to do.
Drills, drills, drills....) One thing I did discover is that my open hand strikes are quite powerful. Much to my dismay as I accidently hurt a fellow student a couple of years ago.To be honest, he was being a supreme jerk to me and would not get out of my face even after I asked him nicely many times and he would not let me walk away. He likes to intimidate women to discourage them from participating. I went to push him away, but it ended up being more like a strike to the sternum. I lifted the guy about six inches off of his feet (no kidding!)and saw his body shake violently for at least 30 seconds afterwards. Sifu gave me the EVIL eye at first but after we saw the jerk was going to be okay, he (Sifu) kind of smiled at me. I think he secretly wanted to do the same thing to the jerk himself.
It scared the heck out of me and I have avoided sparring with or striking anyone since. I know I am going to have to start again but I am really worried that I may hurt someone. As a therapist I once worked with a man who had his ribcage collasped during a Muay Tai (sp?) tournament. (Luckily, the ribs had flexed at the cartilage so they were only dislocated, not broken.) I certainly do not want to be the cause of such damage to another unless I am caught in a dangerous situation.
When I practice against a heavy bag my punches barely move it but when I do open palm strikes I can make it swing violently. Does anyone know why this is?
Sunwolf
Still a very new student
[This message has been edited by Sunwolf (edited July 15, 2002).]
-
Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Why women can't hit hard
Sunwolf,
Please go take a look at this thread:
http://www.xpres.net/~gmattson/ubbs/Forum7/HTML/000356.html
It is a good discussion on the idea of how to make a "traditional" closed fist - particularly for women.
I think the closed fist techniques are some of the most difficult because they require perfect alignment of your bones in order to be able to transfer power.
Take a look at the thread and them let's talk about your questions.
Bill & hoshin,
There are a few givens - one is that if a woman has never hit ANYTHING before then she is simply going to need a few hundred reps of striking something to get the feel for how her body works. A good teacher teaching good body mechanics can speed things along.
What I've noticed in class is that the women are simply RELUNCTANT to hit. I think they're worried that they're going to hurt the heavy bag. And, often when they throw power at the beginning they don't have proper alignment and their wrist rolls and that hurts a lot - so the negative feedback breaks their newly budding punching confidence.
While I am not an over big fan of the makiwara - for women hitting a well paded one lightly at the beginning of their training is the kind of "corrective" work that I think the tool was designed for.
I think women may need to hit lightly and often to build both supportive muscles and confidence before they are asked to add power.
Dana
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited July 17, 2002).]
Please go take a look at this thread:
http://www.xpres.net/~gmattson/ubbs/Forum7/HTML/000356.html
It is a good discussion on the idea of how to make a "traditional" closed fist - particularly for women.
I think the closed fist techniques are some of the most difficult because they require perfect alignment of your bones in order to be able to transfer power.
Take a look at the thread and them let's talk about your questions.
Bill & hoshin,
There are a few givens - one is that if a woman has never hit ANYTHING before then she is simply going to need a few hundred reps of striking something to get the feel for how her body works. A good teacher teaching good body mechanics can speed things along.
What I've noticed in class is that the women are simply RELUNCTANT to hit. I think they're worried that they're going to hurt the heavy bag. And, often when they throw power at the beginning they don't have proper alignment and their wrist rolls and that hurts a lot - so the negative feedback breaks their newly budding punching confidence.
While I am not an over big fan of the makiwara - for women hitting a well paded one lightly at the beginning of their training is the kind of "corrective" work that I think the tool was designed for.
I think women may need to hit lightly and often to build both supportive muscles and confidence before they are asked to add power.
Dana
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited July 17, 2002).]
Why women can't hit hard
hi Dana
like i said in my post unfortunatly a womens wrist is structualy weeker. i found that if they wear hand wraps (putting a lot of it over the wrists) helps a lot. and yes they shouldnt hit with power untill they are ready. to me that is a given. also i personaly like to work the hand focus pads it tends to be a little less intimidating then a makiwara. here is an idea to help women build confidence and the correct feel of power ,,besides they love it
use the hand pads and have them hit with the hammer fist on a downward stroke. thats a wicked strike and the wrist doesnt come into play. i would then go to punching on an up and down angle but i couldnt explain that here you would have to see it.
hoshin
~~~~~~~
like i said in my post unfortunatly a womens wrist is structualy weeker. i found that if they wear hand wraps (putting a lot of it over the wrists) helps a lot. and yes they shouldnt hit with power untill they are ready. to me that is a given. also i personaly like to work the hand focus pads it tends to be a little less intimidating then a makiwara. here is an idea to help women build confidence and the correct feel of power ,,besides they love it
use the hand pads and have them hit with the hammer fist on a downward stroke. thats a wicked strike and the wrist doesnt come into play. i would then go to punching on an up and down angle but i couldnt explain that here you would have to see it.hoshin
~~~~~~~
Wow, can I relate to the strructure of the wrist being different... My wrists are 3 inches around and extremely bony. I have also found that I have the tendency to "tuck" them when I'm not supposed to. This started bugging me so much- (being a stickler for form) that I've tried tapeing my wrists up, to try to keep them from moving. (didn't really work either)
Awesome topic. I also found that while my form is good re: kicking- It hurts the top of my foot cuz it's so bony. Now my Sensei- has told me there is a particular spot you are suposed to "kick" with- and through conditioning- it will get better- but you're right Dana, when you say it takes twice as long and it's driving me CRAZY. I can "send" the kick out there, but I've actually caught myself physically holding back at the actual connection point. I've worked with men that say- "It's ok, you can really kick me" and I'm thinking- I'm trying- it hurts my stupid foot!" Form Form Form... sigh..
Someone also said it might be particially due to not wanting to hurt people. I think that's a really good point. When I read that, it was like a subliminal light bulb went off in my head that went "stereotypical mommy syndrome here" i.e. we are taught to protect and nurture- not hit and puncture (LOL)
But maybe while we attack the physical aspects the way Mr. Glasheen suggested- we as women can attack within ourselves the subliminal aspect, and re-direct what we are thinking to ourselves as we practice, on a conscious level. Know what I mean? Maybe everybody does this already- one of the things my Sensei suggested is to picture "slicing-threw" (*note to self is this the right "threw/through"* LOL ) Like if you are punching or kicking a bag, imagin the kick or punch going to the center or all the way out the other side of the bag. Like a knife threw butter. (sheesh got me paranoid now LOL) Been trrying to do this but it still hurts my feet. LOL (sound like I'm a big baby huuh LOL) (I'm referring to leg conditioning- not kicking a bag)
Anyway- just got me thinking- which is always dangerous in my household. LOL
Good topic.
K-
Awesome topic. I also found that while my form is good re: kicking- It hurts the top of my foot cuz it's so bony. Now my Sensei- has told me there is a particular spot you are suposed to "kick" with- and through conditioning- it will get better- but you're right Dana, when you say it takes twice as long and it's driving me CRAZY. I can "send" the kick out there, but I've actually caught myself physically holding back at the actual connection point. I've worked with men that say- "It's ok, you can really kick me" and I'm thinking- I'm trying- it hurts my stupid foot!" Form Form Form... sigh..
Someone also said it might be particially due to not wanting to hurt people. I think that's a really good point. When I read that, it was like a subliminal light bulb went off in my head that went "stereotypical mommy syndrome here" i.e. we are taught to protect and nurture- not hit and puncture (LOL)
But maybe while we attack the physical aspects the way Mr. Glasheen suggested- we as women can attack within ourselves the subliminal aspect, and re-direct what we are thinking to ourselves as we practice, on a conscious level. Know what I mean? Maybe everybody does this already- one of the things my Sensei suggested is to picture "slicing-threw" (*note to self is this the right "threw/through"* LOL ) Like if you are punching or kicking a bag, imagin the kick or punch going to the center or all the way out the other side of the bag. Like a knife threw butter. (sheesh got me paranoid now LOL) Been trrying to do this but it still hurts my feet. LOL (sound like I'm a big baby huuh LOL) (I'm referring to leg conditioning- not kicking a bag)
Anyway- just got me thinking- which is always dangerous in my household. LOL
Good topic.
K-
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Tony-San
Kerry, I know you didn't ask for it but here is my advice: when training, practice kicking with the ball of your foot. Only do toe kicks in your kata. People will say "but that's not the Uechi death kick" but just ignore them. When you get out there to spar, they will be running away from your front kicks because they have 10X more power and commitment behind them. I'm not saying don't develop your toe kick, just don't force yourself to use it if it's undeveloped.
Hey T-
Do you mean the "pointed toe" kick- Sensei doesn't focus on that until advance levels- which I am, but until I get more power, I've really been kicking with the ball of my toes- when I said "it hurts my foot" I was referring to round house leg conditioning- where you kick with the top of your foot- I can't seem to get my aim right and use that "spot" to hit/make contact with." But I'm interested in your advise- could you clarify? Or am I doing what you meant?
Thanks!
K-
(BTW-if I've posted- I'm asking for advise and comments! please!- you are welcome to comment!
Do you mean the "pointed toe" kick- Sensei doesn't focus on that until advance levels- which I am, but until I get more power, I've really been kicking with the ball of my toes- when I said "it hurts my foot" I was referring to round house leg conditioning- where you kick with the top of your foot- I can't seem to get my aim right and use that "spot" to hit/make contact with." But I'm interested in your advise- could you clarify? Or am I doing what you meant?
Thanks!
K-
(BTW-if I've posted- I'm asking for advise and comments! please!- you are welcome to comment!
I may get in trouble for suggesting non-uechi techniques here, but you can use the ball of your foot for roundhouses as well. Kicking with the top of your foot, inmydifferentstylehumbleopinion, is asking to break it. Sometimes people see fast TKD style kicks that LOOK like they're with the top of the foot, but they're NOT. It's more like the ankle for lack of a better description-- closer to, or on the very bottom of the shin. Kicking closer to the toes hurts no matter how well conditioned you are because your leg keeps going and your foot snaps off at the joint.
