I wish that I had been around when Kanbun was studying karate! I find him to be an amazing man and would have loved to asked him what Sanchin meant to him. In what I have read it seems that all of Uechi Ryu is in Sanchin, but why? What was the importance of 3 to Kanbun? Three Kata, three animals spirits, three steps... Uechi Ryu is composed of endless trinities. Why did Kanei change that with the additional kata? What did Kanbun see that Kanei did not?
If anyone has any thoughts on this I'd love to hear them!
thanks
Wendy
Master Kanbun
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Robb in Sacramento
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Trinity:
Great questions. Perhaps we should also add, what did Kanei see that Kanbun did not? I have been told that many of the kata, and for that matter bunkai and kumite, were added to two reasons. The first was the annual demonstration in Naha. By adding forms, kumite, and bunkai, Uechi Ryu had a body of work roughly as long as that of other styles, and could avoid repetition. The second is the Americans. And, perhaps it is the Americans, and other non Okinawans, that Kanei saw and Kanbun did not.
I am told Kanbun taught in a small room to one student at a time. This was not unusual. Few instructors of karate had more than a few students. Kanbun probably never visualized a gymasium full of Americans moving through the kata together. Kanei, on the other hand, may have recognized the need to adapt his art to accomodate more than a few students at a time and to break it down into smaller component to allow his foriegn students to digest the art.
If so, Kanei's approach was not unique. Clearly, this is what Anko Itosu had done in introducing karate into the Okinawan educational system with the introduction of the pinans, and it is what Gichin Funakoshi and Choki Motobu had done in introducing karate to the Japanese.
I wonder how well any modern American would get along with Kanbun. Modern feminists might have difficulty removing themselves from the present and placing themselves in the times and culture of Kanbun, a time and culture that allowed him and other karate legends to leave wives and families. I rather suspect that Kanbun would also have a difficult time accepting Americans as students. Lest we forget, his son went out on a phenomenal karate limb to accept a young American named Mattson as a student of Uechi Ryu.
Whatever the meaning of three was to Kanbun, we are left to speculate, just as we are left to speculate as to the existence of a fourth kata, and whether and with whom Kanbun would have shared this kata. Thankfully for me, his son shared his knowledge of San Chin with my teachers. This single gift is one I cherish, and apparently, so do you. If you are out this way, drop by, and we can share in the joy of doing San Chin and honor the gift that Kanbun left for us.
Peace.
Great questions. Perhaps we should also add, what did Kanei see that Kanbun did not? I have been told that many of the kata, and for that matter bunkai and kumite, were added to two reasons. The first was the annual demonstration in Naha. By adding forms, kumite, and bunkai, Uechi Ryu had a body of work roughly as long as that of other styles, and could avoid repetition. The second is the Americans. And, perhaps it is the Americans, and other non Okinawans, that Kanei saw and Kanbun did not.
I am told Kanbun taught in a small room to one student at a time. This was not unusual. Few instructors of karate had more than a few students. Kanbun probably never visualized a gymasium full of Americans moving through the kata together. Kanei, on the other hand, may have recognized the need to adapt his art to accomodate more than a few students at a time and to break it down into smaller component to allow his foriegn students to digest the art.
If so, Kanei's approach was not unique. Clearly, this is what Anko Itosu had done in introducing karate into the Okinawan educational system with the introduction of the pinans, and it is what Gichin Funakoshi and Choki Motobu had done in introducing karate to the Japanese.
I wonder how well any modern American would get along with Kanbun. Modern feminists might have difficulty removing themselves from the present and placing themselves in the times and culture of Kanbun, a time and culture that allowed him and other karate legends to leave wives and families. I rather suspect that Kanbun would also have a difficult time accepting Americans as students. Lest we forget, his son went out on a phenomenal karate limb to accept a young American named Mattson as a student of Uechi Ryu.
Whatever the meaning of three was to Kanbun, we are left to speculate, just as we are left to speculate as to the existence of a fourth kata, and whether and with whom Kanbun would have shared this kata. Thankfully for me, his son shared his knowledge of San Chin with my teachers. This single gift is one I cherish, and apparently, so do you. If you are out this way, drop by, and we can share in the joy of doing San Chin and honor the gift that Kanbun left for us.
Peace.
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Bill Glasheen
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I think you will find Buddist significance to the 3's in martial arts. When you go in certain areas of China, you will find a number of systems with form names of 3, 13, 36, and 108. Note that it's OK to have more than three forms...just as long as they have the right names. With time, though, my understanding (from Simon Lailey's interview of Fuzhou residents) that the naming conventions became more tradition and less religion.
By the way, Bill Stockey once told me that the reason for the "108" limit on form names (and sequences) is due to the 108 struggles in life in the Buddhist religion. At struggle 109, you die. It's sort of like the folklore of a cat with nine lives.
From an engineering standpoint, a triad is the fundamental stable structure. Any good carpenter knows that three nails in a triangle is a good, nonrotating attachment. A tripod is the minimum-legged structure to support something, and it won't wobble like a four-legged table. In landscaping, planting in threes gives a pleasing look to the eye (I did it myself on my own lot). Having 3 offspring makes a population potentially stable (one offspring can perform a non-reproducing role, be gay, or die). Many more examples of triads in nature.
Any further research and commentary on this from the religion experts would be appreciated.
By the way, Bill Stockey once told me that the reason for the "108" limit on form names (and sequences) is due to the 108 struggles in life in the Buddhist religion. At struggle 109, you die. It's sort of like the folklore of a cat with nine lives.
From an engineering standpoint, a triad is the fundamental stable structure. Any good carpenter knows that three nails in a triangle is a good, nonrotating attachment. A tripod is the minimum-legged structure to support something, and it won't wobble like a four-legged table. In landscaping, planting in threes gives a pleasing look to the eye (I did it myself on my own lot). Having 3 offspring makes a population potentially stable (one offspring can perform a non-reproducing role, be gay, or die). Many more examples of triads in nature.
Any further research and commentary on this from the religion experts would be appreciated.
Master Kanbun
Thank you both for the quick replies! Bill - I've heard talk of a fourth kata in the history of Master Kanbun would that kata have had the 108 in the name?
Master Kanbun
http://www.tanega.com/WMKA/articles/108.html
i don't know any religion experts but this is an interesting article on the subject
[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited 12-01-98).]
i don't know any religion experts but this is an interesting article on the subject
[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited 12-01-98).]
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Bill Glasheen
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Master Kanbun
Trinity:
Yes, the alleged fourth kata was supposed to be named superinpei. That translates as 108. There are several Okinawan systems with a superinpei kata, most notably the Goju system which has similar origins to Uechi ryu.
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 12-01-98).]
Yes, the alleged fourth kata was supposed to be named superinpei. That translates as 108. There are several Okinawan systems with a superinpei kata, most notably the Goju system which has similar origins to Uechi ryu.
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 12-01-98).]
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Bill Glasheen
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joseph:
Thanks. That was an excellent article. I've been looking for one like that for some time. It answers a few questions I have had about the 108 concept (the 108 defilements).
After reading the article, I now know the significance of some of what Simon had learned while picking up the "yi bai lin ba bu" form in Fuzhou. As a background, the name of the forms in characters is pretty simple. It means 108. But depending on the language or dialect of the language, you get different pronunciations. the Mandarin for 108 is yi bai lin ba. The "On" proununciation in Japanese is superinpei. The "Kun" pronunciation is hyaku hachi. It's all the same.
But Simon was fascinated by the fact that this form he learned was called yi bai lin ba BU. The "bu" means steps. He thought maybe that it was a longer form since it could mean 108 steps in the form where each step had a number of different hand movements.
It IS true that some of the forms of karate/kungfu origin attempt to reflect the number directly. But...the article that joseph references and its commentary about the 108 steps up to a buddist shrine sheds a whole other (en)light on the issue.
Now for the numerologists among you (and I'm not going off the deep end here folks), 108 can be factored out as follows:
108 = 2*2*3*3*3
So using the concepts spoken of in the article, the following numbers might be considered "kosher" (sorry to mix religions) from a buddhist standpoint.
2, 3, 4, 6, 9, 12, 18, 27, 36, 54, 108
For sure, there are Okinawan karate forms using the numbers 3, 18, 36, 54, and 108. (sanchin, seipai, sanseiru, go ju shi, superinpei). The referenced article tells why some are more "relevant" than others.
So where does the 13 come from? Hmmmm.... Maybe the Asians had a sense of humor about wester superstition ;-)
Thanks. That was an excellent article. I've been looking for one like that for some time. It answers a few questions I have had about the 108 concept (the 108 defilements).
After reading the article, I now know the significance of some of what Simon had learned while picking up the "yi bai lin ba bu" form in Fuzhou. As a background, the name of the forms in characters is pretty simple. It means 108. But depending on the language or dialect of the language, you get different pronunciations. the Mandarin for 108 is yi bai lin ba. The "On" proununciation in Japanese is superinpei. The "Kun" pronunciation is hyaku hachi. It's all the same.
But Simon was fascinated by the fact that this form he learned was called yi bai lin ba BU. The "bu" means steps. He thought maybe that it was a longer form since it could mean 108 steps in the form where each step had a number of different hand movements.
It IS true that some of the forms of karate/kungfu origin attempt to reflect the number directly. But...the article that joseph references and its commentary about the 108 steps up to a buddist shrine sheds a whole other (en)light on the issue.
Now for the numerologists among you (and I'm not going off the deep end here folks), 108 can be factored out as follows:
108 = 2*2*3*3*3
So using the concepts spoken of in the article, the following numbers might be considered "kosher" (sorry to mix religions) from a buddhist standpoint.
2, 3, 4, 6, 9, 12, 18, 27, 36, 54, 108
For sure, there are Okinawan karate forms using the numbers 3, 18, 36, 54, and 108. (sanchin, seipai, sanseiru, go ju shi, superinpei). The referenced article tells why some are more "relevant" than others.
So where does the 13 come from? Hmmmm.... Maybe the Asians had a sense of humor about wester superstition ;-)
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Bill Glasheen
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Master Kanbun
As a final note to complete the circle (enso??) back to Trinity's question...
"3" and "2" are the two prime factors of 108. Thus from the Buddhist point of view, 3 may be considered a fundamental building unit. How apropos when you consider that "we" (I) always preach how sanchin contains movements that are the lowest common denominator of all movements in the system.
I thought of a few more ubiquitous examples of three. These help when you consider why they (the namers of kata) are so fascinated with numerology. I suggest doing the following:
1) go to your nearest major suspension bridge and look at the structures. You will find that many of the major steel structures are made up of a series of triangles.
2) Go into the attic of a house under construction. Check out the repeating triangle structures in most roofs.
3) Take another look at a spider web some time.
"3" and "2" are the two prime factors of 108. Thus from the Buddhist point of view, 3 may be considered a fundamental building unit. How apropos when you consider that "we" (I) always preach how sanchin contains movements that are the lowest common denominator of all movements in the system.
I thought of a few more ubiquitous examples of three. These help when you consider why they (the namers of kata) are so fascinated with numerology. I suggest doing the following:
1) go to your nearest major suspension bridge and look at the structures. You will find that many of the major steel structures are made up of a series of triangles.
2) Go into the attic of a house under construction. Check out the repeating triangle structures in most roofs.
3) Take another look at a spider web some time.
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RACastanet
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Master Kanbun
You all need to stop over at Steve Di Orio's site for further info on this subject. 13 is a level of enlightenment and good luck, comprised of 4, for the 4 corners of the earth plus 9, a Chines prime number. Take a minute and read the post. It fits right in with your discussion.
Rich
Rich
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Kevin Mackie
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Master Kanbun
JD-you wrote:
No ones Sensei is perfect. Do we expect perfection in Kanbum? He is fortunate he never was filmed practicing. We can imagine his kata were always perfect. Maybe they were. If they were not, does that excuse our mistakes?
We small fries in our dojo are fortunate to have two new seniors with a gold stripe on their belts.
Last night after extending my congrats, one said to me with tongue firmly planted in his cheek " I no longer make mistakes.. I make changes."
Kevin
No ones Sensei is perfect. Do we expect perfection in Kanbum? He is fortunate he never was filmed practicing. We can imagine his kata were always perfect. Maybe they were. If they were not, does that excuse our mistakes?
We small fries in our dojo are fortunate to have two new seniors with a gold stripe on their belts.
Last night after extending my congrats, one said to me with tongue firmly planted in his cheek " I no longer make mistakes.. I make changes."
Kevin
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RACastanet
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Master Kanbun
Anthony: Steve is part of this site. Click on martial arts forums and then Steve's history site. I believe the article was originally a letter to Mattson sensei a month or so ago. I've printed it out for my archives.
Rich
Rich
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gmattson
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Master Kanbun
Now that we have solved the numerology mystery, would J.D. please take on the "handling of snakes" passage in the bible, before we lose any more Preachers!
Read in this mornings' paper about Rev. Brown, who died from a snake bite during a service. He was under a court order not to "perform" with snakes, after losing his wife a few years back, to the same ungodly wrath.
Please J.D., we need your wisdom!
PS. I found the whole discussion pertaining to the translation of ancient documents extremely interesting.
Read in this mornings' paper about Rev. Brown, who died from a snake bite during a service. He was under a court order not to "perform" with snakes, after losing his wife a few years back, to the same ungodly wrath.
Please J.D., we need your wisdom!
PS. I found the whole discussion pertaining to the translation of ancient documents extremely interesting.
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Bill Glasheen
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Master Kanbun
Lest we forget, joseph posted a URL that answers lots of questions here. Whether you believe in numerology and Buddhism or not, the circumstantial evidence linking the naming of our forms to Buddhism is undeniable. You cannot completely understand an artform without understanding the contextS in which it was developed. While it is unhealthy to treat the religious and superstitious beliefs connected to martial arts as dogma, it is equally unhealthy (and rather ethnocentric) to presume that one can extract choreography from culture and completely understand it. While it is possible that Kanbun was an idot-savant who copied without understanding, he nevertheless copied from a broad cultural base. As an example, while I distance myself from Evan's beliefs in the 5-element theory foundation of kyusho, I nevertheless acknowledge that many traditional forms were choreographed based on that understanding of sequential striking. I cannot presume that I can change and/or interpret a classic before I know the foundation upon which it was built.
And who knows, if you study the religious and anthropologic origins long enough then maybe you can gain a level of culture worthy of a discussion with J.D. over a bottle of Wild Turkey. Praise the Lord and pass the bottle.
And who knows, if you study the religious and anthropologic origins long enough then maybe you can gain a level of culture worthy of a discussion with J.D. over a bottle of Wild Turkey. Praise the Lord and pass the bottle.
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Bill Glasheen
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Master Kanbun
Yes! And then again,
* Imagine our (lack of) understanding of infinite futility without the myth of Sysiphus.
* Imagine what mathematics would be like if we had been born with six fingers per hand.
* Imagine what elevator numbering would be like if our society did not have a Christian base.
* Imagine how many more crimes would be committed in society if Abner Doubleday had made 4 strikes per out.
* Imagine what rockets and cigars and other things would look like if we mated by kissing. And how would we then insult the jerk by us on the highway?
* Imagine our (lack of) understanding of infinite futility without the myth of Sysiphus.
* Imagine what mathematics would be like if we had been born with six fingers per hand.
* Imagine what elevator numbering would be like if our society did not have a Christian base.
* Imagine how many more crimes would be committed in society if Abner Doubleday had made 4 strikes per out.
* Imagine what rockets and cigars and other things would look like if we mated by kissing. And how would we then insult the jerk by us on the highway?
